Israel imposes 'apartheid regime' on Palestinians - U.N. report

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

You raised objections (as usual) to Israel's immigration policies. If your objections to these polices stem from a a supposed ideological-moral point of view, then it is still not clear why the same objections do not apply to the Palestinian goals, which amount to creating a similar set up in their future state. If, as a self-proclaimed "humanist", this is a matter of principal, there is no reasoning offered as to why it ought to be applied in one case, but not the other.

 

Similarly, repeatedly refusing to acknowledge that public biased views of both the commissioning body and the authors of the "report", while at the same time insisting it should be discussed as objective and be taken at face value, is rather childish. All the more so, when parties rejecting the "report", or pointing out to the bias mentioned above are discredited simply because of their supposed affiliations. Again, no reasoning offered as to why the positions of commissioning body and authors should be ignored, or why dismiss the point of view of those rejecting it.

 

If your repetitive dodging of these two issues does not amount to deflection, then we have a different notion of the concept.

 

I'm not even going to address your bogus "two returnees" bs. Try that stereotypical nonsense on someone else.

 

Whether you like it or not, most countries apply a certain amount of discrimination when it comes to immigration. There is no obligation for a country to commit suicide in order to satisfy you agenda laden "principals". It may come as a shock, but the world is not a prefect construct, and there aren't always absolute answers and solutions. The situation at hand is one such example.

[Morch]

On 3/23/2017 at 0:30 AM, dexterm said:

>>The report was by 18 Arab countries
...the report was written by two academics with specialized knowledge in international law.

>>Consider, the jewish populations of those countries which were kicked out as revenge for losing the 1948 war and the declaration of the state of Israel. Would they be allowed to return to their homes?
...if true, then blame the Arab countries, not the Palestinians. Why should Palestinians be the scapegoats for others? I would suggest that Jews who can genuinely prove they were involuntarily expelled from anywhere should receive compensation.

 

The rest of your post is an old chestnut nothing to do with the present topic.

 

The "report" was commissioned by a UN regional body comprised of 18 Arab countries. The two authors extreme views on the issue at hand are publicly known. The sham of presenting it as anything resembling an objective view is pathetic.

 

The point made was that the very same countries sponsoring the "report" do not, themselves, have a great record of upholding human rights (not with regard to their former Jewish citizens, nor with treatment of their Palestinian brethren) - and that's putting it mildly. And yet, you would claim that their voices carry a special moral weight. Same old double standards.

 

Notably, when you discuss "Jews who can genuinely prove they were involuntarily expelled" it's "compensation". No such demands of proof when it comes to the Palestinians, non of that fiery rhetoric describing the Palestinian plight (compare "involuntarily expelled" with "ethnic cleansing"), and no actual Right of Return, but a "compensation". Double dish double standards.

 

As for "scapegoating" - these would be the same countries who both made decisions in the name of Palestinians, occupied their land and denied them the right of self-determination. The same countries who urged them, for decades,  not to compromise. Claiming that they have nothing to do with the state of things, is either ignorant or disingenuous. Pick one.

[thaibeachlovers]

Hmmmmm. Did the UN just notice that? Were they too busy partying to notice before? As I have said many times, the UN is a waste of space.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>I'm not even going to address your bogus "two returnees" bs.

I didn't expect to get a straight answer to a very simple question, which is of course at the heart of the OP apartheid report:  Israel's near exclusive Jewish only immigration policy, while restricting in every way possible any increase in the Palestinian population that would challenge through the ballot box the artificial construct, the Jewish State. And you accuse me of dodging issues.

 

>>there is no reasoning offered as to why it [right of return] ought to be applied in one case, but not the other.
...Oh but there is. Because it's the Palestinians who are the ones who have been in Palestine/Israel for generations and are the ones who have been ethnically cleansed, and by international law they are entitled to the right of return. Whereas, the Zionists have only decided to migrate after an absence of 2,000 years, and have no automatic right of return to a place they have never even seen before. Yet according to Israel's apartheid laws, it's the Jews who get priority. The racist apartheid state is an anachronism in the 21st century, as more observers are becoming aware.

 

And as for your completely disingenuous "Whether you like it or not, most countries apply a certain amount of discrimination when it comes to immigration." we're talking about 99.5% near exlusive Jewish only immigration policy here and you understate that as "certain amount"! Another instance of Zionists calling black white. I don't know how on earth you can write such drivel with a straight face, and believe you are being intellectually honest?

 

The OP report clearly highlights a very important area;  otherwise it would not be worthy of your incredible efforts at obfuscation and sweeping under the carpet.
Not to worry, I am sure the subject will come up again.

 

At least our discussion led me to some very interetsing authors and sites on the subject of apartheid and the one state solution which, I am convinced more than ever, is now inevitable.
 

As I can't believe the Israelis would ever allow the Palestinians to dominate the Knesset by sheer population numbers, has any Israeli politician said what would happen to the Palestinians under a one state solution?

[dexterm]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I can't believe the Israelis would ever allow the Palestinians to dominate the Knesset by sheer population numbers, has any Israeli politician said what would happen to the Palestinians under a one state solution?

Netanyahu calls it a "state-minus": Israel gets total military and economic control of all the land, while Palestinians would get a series of bantustans but no voting rights in the Israeli parliament giving them a say how most aspects of their lives are dictated i.e. full blown de jure apartheid.

At least it would be more honest than the de facto apartheid there at the moment. The world could then judge the racist state of Israel for what it clearly is.

 

I have read of some commentators suggesting a binational solution with 2 parliaments plus the freedom of all peoples to live, work and worship wherever they like.

 

Let's see what Trump's negotiators come up with to resolve Israel's dilemma : It can either be a Jewish State or a democracy...but it can't be both.

[up-country_sinclair]

On 3/16/2017 at 8:31 AM, webfact said:

BEIRUT/UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - A U.N. agency published a report on Wednesday accusing Israel of imposing an "apartheid regime" of racial discrimination on the Palestinian people, and said it was the first time a U.N. body had clearly made the charge.

 

This may have already been posted, but the real "news" is that it took until 2017 for the UN to unequivocally state what is glaringly obvious.

Edited March 28, 2017 by up-country_sinclair

[dexterm]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The "report" was commissioned by a UN regional body comprised of 18 Arab countries. The two authors extreme views on the issue at hand are publicly known. The sham of presenting it as anything resembling an objective view is pathetic.

 

The point made was that the very same countries sponsoring the "report" do not, themselves, have a great record of upholding human rights (not with regard to their former Jewish citizens, nor with treatment of their Palestinian brethren) - and that's putting it mildly. And yet, you would claim that their voices carry a special moral weight. Same old double standards.

 

Notably, when you discuss "Jews who can genuinely prove they were involuntarily expelled" it's "compensation". No such demands of proof when it comes to the Palestinians, non of that fiery rhetoric describing the Palestinian plight (compare "involuntarily expelled" with "ethnic cleansing"), and no actual Right of Return, but a "compensation". Double dish double standards.

 

As for "scapegoating" - these would be the same countries who both made decisions in the name of Palestinians, occupied their land and denied them the right of self-determination. The same countries who urged them, for decades,  not to compromise. Claiming that they have nothing to do with the state of things, is either ignorant or disingenuous. Pick one.

No double standards at all. If Palestinians and their descendants can prove they were ethnically cleansed from Israel, then they should have the right of return or compensation. If Jews and their descendants can prove they were ethnically cleansed from neighboring Arab countries, then they should have the right of return or compensation.

Who pays is something for the UN, EU, USA to sort out...for the sake of peace it would be cheap at twice the price!

 

Zionist Jews are clearly guilty of ethnic cleansing..if not initially in terrorizing Palestinians to leave their land, then certainly it's a war crime of ethnic cleansing not allowing them to return only because, as the OP points out,  it would upset Israel's demographics. 

 

Don't blame the Palestinians for what other countries may have done to Jews! 

[geriatrickid]

One doesn't need to read the thread, to know which of TVF's resident jew hating, Israel hating, extremist armchair agitators have posted the same old bigoted drivel. It's tiresome and somewhat shocking. I have wondered how they could be so full of hate, but the worst part is that TVF continues to provide an outlet for their hatred.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

One doesn't need to read the thread, to know which of TVF's resident jew hating, Israel hating, extremist armchair agitators have posted the same old bigoted drivel. It's tiresome and somewhat shocking. I have wondered how they could be so full of hate, but the worst part is that TVF continues to provide an outlet for their hatred.

I have myself reported anti semitism when I have encountered it on TVF, and it has been deleted.I hate all racists and bullies.

 

But do not confuse or deliberately conflate legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. If you do, you demean the currency, and undermine real anti-semitic attacks when they happen by crying wolf too often.

 

Tony Judt, the brilliant Jewish historian and ex Zionist, who was himself pilloried for his criticism of Israel being called a self loathing Jew, warned that "genuine antisemitism may also in time cease to be taken seriously, thanks to the Israel lobby's abuse of the term".

http://www.haaretz.com/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721?v=9328D951C29F2365084636962340486B

 

If you feel a particular post is anti semitic, quote it and explain in what way the poster is demonstrating blind hatred or stereotyping of Jews per se simply because of their race or religion.

 

There is a world wide attempt at the moment to silence any criticism of Israel by calling it anti semitism. The OP report was no exception, and quickly got censored by the UN hierarchy on their website under pressure from the Israeli lobby, although it was part authored by the legal academic Richard Falk, who is Jewish himself.
 

[CharlieK]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/714278/posts

 

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

 

 

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

 

He also goes on to explain that Jordan couldn't lay claim to Haifa or Jaffa. But a (fake) Palestinian could! He is also not the only Arab to claim the Palestinians are a fiction. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awni_Abd_al-Hadi 

 

A member of the Palestinian delegation to the Peel commission

 

 "There is no such country [as Palestine].... Palestine is a Zionist invention    Our country was for centuries part of Syria"

 

In reality the term Palestinian was an arab term used to describe the Jews of the area, not the Arabs. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by CharlieK

[dexterm]

8 hours ago, CharlieK said:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/714278/posts

 

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

 

 

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

 

He also goes on to explain that Jordan couldn't lay claim to Haifa or Jaffa. But a (fake) Palestinian could! He is also not the only Arab to claim the Palestinians are a fiction. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awni_Abd_al-Hadi 

 

A member of the Palestinian delegation to the Peel commission

 

 "There is no such country [as Palestine].... Palestine is a Zionist invention    Our country was for centuries part of Syria"

 

In reality the term Palestinian was an arab term used to describe the Jews of the area, not the Arabs. 

>>In reality the term Palestinian was an arab term used to describe the Jews of the area, not the Arabs.
..Zionists have stolen their land; now they want to steal their name too. Incredible chutzpah. Another example of Zionists' attempts to call black white.

 

Well, according to your logic if Israeli Jews are Palestinians then so are the "invisible people" residents who were already there and outnumbered Jews 11:1 when the first waves of Zionist immigration began. And they still outnumber them. Hence Israel's desperate OP apartheid laws dividing them up into 4  different groups for different ways to disenfranchise them.

 

Instead of living in the past busying yourself with irrelevant nonsense to create the perfect Israeli narrative, which will not have the slightest bearing on any final peace agreement, concern yourself with the present.

 

Over 70% of the world's countries recognize the State of Palestine and the Palestinian flag is flying outside the UN. All peaceful steps in the right direction. Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.

 

Palestinians exist. There are millions of them. Israel and its apologists need to come to terms with that reality: one state (apartheid or secular democracy) or two.
 

Edited March 29, 2017 by dexterm

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>In reality the term Palestinian was an arab term used to describe the Jews of the area, not the Arabs.
..Zionists have stolen their land; now they want to steal their name too. Incredible chutzpah.

 

Well, according to your logic if Jews are Palestinians then so are the "invisible people" residents who were already there and outnumbered Jews 11:1 when the first waves of Zionist immigration began. And they still outnumber them. Hence Israel's desperate OP apartheid laws dividing them up into 4  different groups for different ways to disenfranchise them.

 

Instead of living in the past busying yourself with irrelevant nonsense to create the perfect Israeli narrative, which will not have the slightest bearing on any final peace agreement, concern yourself with the present.

 

Over 70% of the world's countries recognize the State of Palestine and the Palestinian flag is flying outside the UN. All peaceful steps in the right direction. Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.

 

Palestinians exist. There are millions of them. Israel and its apologists need to come to terms with that reality: one state (apartheid or secular democracy) or two.
 

Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.

True, true.

If a pro Palestinian US president is elected in the future, what then for Israel if it does not make a real peace with it's neighbours now?

[Thorgal]

Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.
True, true.
If a pro Palestinian US president is elected in the future, what then for Israel if it does not make a real peace with it's neighbours now?

Won't be for soon, because there's actually according to US-UN ambassador Nikki Haley 'a new cherif in town'...

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[stander]

Israeli civilians have been terrorized for years by speeding car and knife attacks by Palestinians who are inspired by the same jihadist ideology as the London, Brussels, Paris, Munich and Nice attackers. While ISIS followers receive some funding and help from local supporters, the Palestinian terrorists are encouraged to launch such attacks by the Palestinian Authority and are guaranteed a national hero status, large financial rewards and special benefits to their families.

[CharlieK]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

Instead of living in the past busying yourself with irrelevant nonsense to create the perfect Israeli narrative, which will not have the slightest bearing on any final peace agreement, concern yourself with the present

You don't like that the PLO themselves admit the Palestinians are a fiction? It was 1977 when he said this. That is fact. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by CharlieK

[Morch]

On 3/28/2017 at 11:18 AM, dexterm said:

Netanyahu calls it a "state-minus": Israel gets total military and economic control of all the land, while Palestinians would get a series of bantustans but no voting rights in the Israeli parliament giving them a say how most aspects of their lives are dictated i.e. full blown de jure apartheid.

At least it would be more honest than the de facto apartheid there at the moment. The world could then judge the racist state of Israel for what it clearly is.

 

I have read of some commentators suggesting a binational solution with 2 parliaments plus the freedom of all peoples to live, work and worship wherever they like.

 

Let's see what Trump's negotiators come up with to resolve Israel's dilemma : It can either be a Jewish State or a democracy...but it can't be both.

 

You're making things up again.

 

Netanyahu's phrase wasn't all that different from the late Rabin's ("less than a state"). The future Palestinian state having limited sovereignty (whether temporarily or not) with regard to certain issues is something generally agreed upon by both sides. The gaps are more related to specifics.

 

The nonsense about "total military and economic control of all the land" is supported by nothing which relates to this statements. As is often evident in your posts, no recognition of nuance, degree is offered, everything needs to be presented as absolute. That does not conform to reality, to say the least.

 

Both Israeli leaders references were not related to a one-state solution, rather the opposite.

[Morch]

On 3/28/2017 at 11:26 AM, up-country_sinclair said:

 

This may have already been posted, but the real "news" is that it took until 2017 for the UN to unequivocally state what is glaringly obvious.

 

The UN did not "unequivocally state" anything. The UNSG did not even accept the "report", which was commissioned by a UN body comprising of 18 Arab countries. Spin away.

[Thorgal]

You don't like that the PLO themselves admit the Palestinians are a fiction? It was 1977 when he said this. That is fact. 

 

Zahir Mohsen was a Ba'ahtist pan arabic militant. You've taken his a-propos out of context to suit your agenda. He was promoting the Arabic relationship.

 

By the way, Jordanians originate from the Arabian peninsula.

The united tribes of Al Saud ousted the Hashemites (Jordanians).

The Al Saud tribes originate from Kuwaiti region and conquered the Arabian peninsula, known as today's Saudi Arabia.

 

Palestinian were in Palestine for centuries and more.

 

Was decided between English Lloyd George and French Clemenceau just after WW1, that Palestine would become a separate entity, due to the Holy Land, read Jerusalem.

Lebanon would be Christian, and Palestine would become Jewish.

Lloyd George made this request in order to realise the Balfour declaration.

There was never a dedicated plan for land to the local Muslims.

 

All this if you want to understand todays apartheid in Palestine/Israel and beyond.

 

"Trouw" news outlet is by today still known as a Dutch 'tabloid'...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

[Morch]

23 hours ago, dexterm said:

No double standards at all. If Palestinians and their descendants can prove they were ethnically cleansed from Israel, then they should have the right of return or compensation. If Jews and their descendants can prove they were ethnically cleansed from neighboring Arab countries, then they should have the right of return or compensation.

Who pays is something for the UN, EU, USA to sort out...for the sake of peace it would be cheap at twice the price!

 

Zionist Jews are clearly guilty of ethnic cleansing..if not initially in terrorizing Palestinians to leave their land, then certainly it's a war crime of ethnic cleansing not allowing them to return only because, as the OP points out,  it would upset Israel's demographics. 

 

Don't blame the Palestinians for what other countries may have done to Jews! 

 

Double standards is exactly what it  is.

 

Your posts never include anything about Palestinians needing to provide any "proof" of their rights. It is taken for granted. The standing nonsense is about all of them having deeds for land and keys for houses. Not that it is supported by much. As far as I am aware, there is no equivalent of UNRWA in existence.

 

Embracing this "report" while showing total disregard to the countries sponsoring it, or their own record on human rights issues is nothing but double standards.

 

And I was not blaming the Palestinians for anything of the sort. Try another lame spin. The post was more to do with highlighting the holes in your supposedly "humanist" facade.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Zahir Mohsen was a Ba'ahtist pan arabic militant. You've taken his a-propos out of context to suit your agenda. He was promoting the Arabic relationship.

By the way, Jordanians originate from the Arabian peninsula.
The united tribes of Al Saud ousted the Hashemites (Jordanians).
The Al Saud tribes originate from Kuwaiti region and conquered the Arabian peninsula, known as today's Saudi Arabia.

Palestinian were in Palestine for centuries and more.

Was decided between English Lloyd George and French Clemenceau just after WW1, that Palestine would become a separate entity, due to the Holy Land, read Jerusalem.
Lloyd George made this request in order to realise the Balfour declaration.

"Trouw" news outlet is by today still known as a Dutch 'tabloid'...


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

Thanks Thorgal for the references. Similar stuff on wiki. 

Obviously the OP apartheid topic is a very sensitive and important issue. Hence the Zionists' attempts to deflect.

[dexterm]

27 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You're making things up again.

 

Netanyahu's phrase wasn't all that different from the late Rabin's ("less than a state"). The future Palestinian state having limited sovereignty (whether temporarily or not) with regard to certain issues is something generally agreed upon by both sides. The gaps are more related to specifics.

 

The nonsense about "total military and economic control of all the land" is supported by nothing which relates to this statements. As is often evident in your posts, no recognition of nuance, degree is offered, everything needs to be presented as absolute. That does not conform to reality, to say the least.

 

Both Israeli leaders references were not related to a one-state solution, rather the opposite.

What bit am I making up? All you are saying is that Rabin mentioned something similar once.So what?

 

It's a de facto one state already. Israel has total military and economic control of all Palestine right now. They won't be giving up much of that.

 

Not playing your off topic deflection games today.

 

I'll wait and see what Trump comes up with.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.

True, true.

If a pro Palestinian US president is elected in the future, what then for Israel if it does not make a real peace with it's neighbours now?

 

Israel does have long standing peace agreements with two of its neighbors (Egypt and Jordan). It's three remaining immediate neighbors are internally divided  to a degree which makes agreements a questionable proposition. Don't let reality stand in your way, though.

[Thorgal]

Thanks Thorgal for the references. Similar stuff on wiki. 
Obviously the OP apartheid topic is a very sensitive and important issue. Hence the Zionists' attempts to deflect.

You're welcome.

To understand nowadays conflicts in the region it's important to have a decent, impartial look to the complex history.

The meeting in London between Lloyd George and Clemenceau just after WW1 was actually an updated Sykes-Picot 2.0, in which Palestine would not be French and not English. Was just a pre-modelling attempt to create the future state of Israel in line to the Balfour declaration.
While an exception for Mosul (due to its oilfields discovered in 1915 by the Germans) was made to transfer it from French Empire to the English Empire.
Clemenceau accepted both requests, and the consequences can be seen till todays apartheid in the region.


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[Morch]

6 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>In reality the term Palestinian was an arab term used to describe the Jews of the area, not the Arabs.
..Zionists have stolen their land; now they want to steal their name too. Incredible chutzpah. Another example of Zionists' attempts to call black white.

 

Well, according to your logic if Israeli Jews are Palestinians then so are the "invisible people" residents who were already there and outnumbered Jews 11:1 when the first waves of Zionist immigration began. And they still outnumber them. Hence Israel's desperate OP apartheid laws dividing them up into 4  different groups for different ways to disenfranchise them.

 

Instead of living in the past busying yourself with irrelevant nonsense to create the perfect Israeli narrative, which will not have the slightest bearing on any final peace agreement, concern yourself with the present.

 

Over 70% of the world's countries recognize the State of Palestine and the Palestinian flag is flying outside the UN. All peaceful steps in the right direction. Slow progress, but time is on the side of the Palestinians.

 

Palestinians exist. There are millions of them. Israel and its apologists need to come to terms with that reality: one state (apartheid or secular democracy) or two.
 

 

Coming from someone who bring up the past whenever it suits, that's rather rich. The essence of your posts is nothing but a deluge of words aimed at turning back the course of history. All the while, pouring scorn on a similar undertaking which Israel is the result of.

 

Same goes for busying oneself with irrelevant nonsense to create a prefect narrative - which is an even better definition of your posts as a whole. That the narrative you push is neither absolute truth, nor plays any helpful role as far as any future peace agreement goes, doesn't seem to bother or even register.

 

Yes, many countries recognize a state of Palestine. Well done. The flip side is that they also recognize Israel, and do not call for the sort of one-state "solutions" your promote, which are aimed at the country's disintegration.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, dexterm said:

What bit am I making up? All you are saying is that Rabin mentioned something similar once.So what?

 

It's a de facto one state already. Israel has total military and economic control of all Palestine right now. They won't be giving up much of that.

 

Not playing your off topic deflection games today.

 

I'll wait and see what Trump comes up with.

 

Your are postulating a non-existent connection between Netanyahu's phrase and a one-state scenario. The Rabin reference was provided in order to show that there is nothing new here, that wasn't previously discussed between the sides. Same goes for the bits about "total control". The territorial continuity of the future Palestine was not referenced, as far as I'm aware, in any of those quotes.

 

Israel does not have "total military and economic control" - if it did, there would be no Palestinian security forces in the West Bank and no rockets launched from the Gaza Strip. Similarly, there would be no foreign aid provided to the Palestinians and no Palestinian Authority to represent the Palestinians.

 

Hence, making things up. Embellishing facts to fit a narrative. Disregarding them in favor of bold statements. The usual.

 

Commenting on your gross disregard for facts, inaccuracies and outright bias is often met with disingenuous whines of "off-topic". Considering it was a direct reply to something you posted, not very convincing.

 

And no, you won't wait for Trump. No chance of that. You'll post the usual fare regardless. Can take that to the bank.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Your are postulating a non-existent connection between Netanyahu's phrase and a one-state scenario. The Rabin reference was provided in order to show that there is nothing new here, that wasn't previously discussed between the sides. Same goes for the bits about "total control". The territorial continuity of the future Palestine was not referenced, as far as I'm aware, in any of those quotes.

 

Israel does not have "total military and economic control" - if it did, there would be no Palestinian security forces in the West Bank and no rockets launched from the Gaza Strip. Similarly, there would be no foreign aid provided to the Palestinians and no Palestinian Authority to represent the Palestinians.

 

Hence, making things up. Embellishing facts to fit a narrative. Disregarding them in favor of bold statements. The usual.

 

Commenting on your gross disregard for facts, inaccuracies and outright bias is often met with disingenuous whines of "off-topic". Considering it was a direct reply to something you posted, not very convincing.

 

And no, you won't wait for Trump. No chance of that. You'll post the usual fare regardless. Can take that to the bank.

>>Your are postulating a non-existent connection between Netanyahu's phrase and a one-state scenario.
... so you are suggesting that Netanyahu's state minus ..a non contiguous patchwork of areas where Palestinians would supposedly have some degree of autonomy, but completely surrounded by an Israeli state, is technically not a one state solution.That presumably is the same phony two state solution that Netanyahu will try to foist upon the world.
See..we've offered them independence in 8% of historic Palestine!

 

 The OP authors define apartheid according to international law, but your picture begins more and more to resemble the South African apartheid we are more familiar with.

 

>>Israel does not have "total military and economic control"
..Risible baloney! The IDF can and do go wherever they like anywhere in Palestine with or without the PA's permission. They can even go into Gaza, although the IDF gets a bloody nose when they do that.

 

And as far as Israel's total economic control, not a single item produced by Palestinians can be exported without first passing through Israeli hands, ports and taxation system. All part of Israel's apartheid control of Palestinians.

 

UN: Israeli occupation stunts Palestinian economy

"The report, which analyses the economy of the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip for 2015, underlines Israeli “restrictions on the movement of people and goods; systematic erosion and destruction of the productive base; losses of land, water and other natural resources”, as some of the main factors hindering the territories’ ability to thrive.

It adds that the separation of the Palestinian market from international markets, the blockade on Gaza, expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the construction of the separation wall on Palestinian land, are further causes for the underdeveloped state of the Palestinian economy."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/israeli-occupation-stunts-palestinian-economy-160909151839441.html
...well worth a read

 

Israel does very nicely economically by exploiting their illegal occupation.

 

At least 78% of humanitarian aid intended for Palestinians ends up in Israeli coffers

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/study-at-least-78-of-humanitarian-aid-intended-for-palestinians-ends-up-in-israeli-coffers/
...another good read.

 

Palestine loses $285m in revenues due to Israel accords

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/palestine-loses-285m-revenues-due-israel-accords-160418153601943.html

Edited March 29, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Israel does not have "total military and economic control"
..Risible baloney! The IDF can and do go wherever they like anywhere in Palestine with or without the PA's permission. They can even go into Gaza, although the IDF gets a bloody nose when they do that.

 

And as far as Israel's total economic control, not a single item produced by Palestinians can be exported without first passing through Israeli hands, ports and taxation system. All part of Israel's apartheid control of Palestinians.

 

UN: Israeli occupation stunts Palestinian economy

"The report, which analyses the economy of the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip for 2015, underlines Israeli “restrictions on the movement of people and goods; systematic erosion and destruction of the productive base; losses of land, water and other natural resources”, as some of the main factors hindering the territories’ ability to thrive.

It adds that the separation of the Palestinian market from international markets, the blockade on Gaza, expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the construction of the separation wall on Palestinian land, are further causes for the underdeveloped state of the Palestinian economy."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/israeli-occupation-stunts-palestinian-economy-160909151839441.html
...well worth a read

 

Israel does very nicely economically by exploiting their illegal occupation.

 

At least 78% of humanitarian aid intended for Palestinians ends up in Israeli coffers

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/study-at-least-78-of-humanitarian-aid-intended-for-palestinians-ends-up-in-israeli-coffers/
...another good read.

 

Palestine loses $285m in revenues due to Israel accords

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/palestine-loses-285m-revenues-due-israel-accords-160418153601943.html

 

Being able to exert military force is not the same as having total military control. By your twisted "logic", the US got total military control globally. Once again, making a whole lot of bold statements, does not mean they are accurate, or even conforming to reality.

 

As you are well aware, Israel does not, in fact, control all relevant borders (here's a clue - Gaza. Egypt). And exports, except in your twisted "logic" do not equate with economy as a whole.

 

The entire argument rests on the existence of the Palestinian Authority, which is in place by Israeli consent and cooperation. The only reason that the concept of a distinct Palestinian economy is even referred to relies on that. Not as if there was an independent Palestinian economy prior to the PA's set up. If Israel was aiming for economic and military "total control", the PA wouldn't be there. There would be no Palestinian security forces, there would have been no Palestinian economic, financial and monetary bodies.

 

If there were no accords, there would have been no Palestinian Authority, and not even an imaginary "Palestine". Claiming losses due to the accords is laughable. The same goes for aid funds. These became significant only after accords were signed.

 

No wonder you're "waiting for Trump", the alternative facts appeal is quite apparent.

 

[dexterm]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Being able to exert military force is not the same as having total military control. By your twisted "logic", the US got total military control globally. Once again, making a whole lot of bold statements, does not mean they are accurate, or even conforming to reality.

 

As you are well aware, Israel does not, in fact, control all relevant borders (here's a clue - Gaza. Egypt). And exports, except in your twisted "logic" do not equate with economy as a whole.

 

The entire argument rests on the existence of the Palestinian Authority, which is in place by Israeli consent and cooperation. The only reason that the concept of a distinct Palestinian economy is even referred to relies on that. Not as if there was an independent Palestinian economy prior to the PA's set up. If Israel was aiming for economic and military "total control", the PA wouldn't be there. There would be no Palestinian security forces, there would have been no Palestinian economic, financial and monetary bodies.

 

If there were no accords, there would have been no Palestinian Authority, and not even an imaginary "Palestine". Claiming losses due to the accords is laughable. The same goes for aid funds. These became significant only after accords were signed.

 

No wonder you're "waiting for Trump", the alternative facts appeal is quite apparent.

 

Para 1 False analogy. USA would and does meet resistance if it tried to use its military to go where it pleases world wide. In a small land such as Palestine the IDF has the overwhelming miltary might to do what it likes, children throwing stones excepted of course.

 

Para 2 So you are saying Palestinians could export all their produce, unhindered by Israel, directly throught the Gazan crossing with Egypt, which the stooge Sisi only opens periodically and Israel controls from its side going into Gaza. Such disingenous drivel.

 

As part of their system of apartheid, Israel controls every aspect of Palestinian lives.

 

I used to have some respect for your occasionally informed posts. Now I see you are reverting to the norm:  deny, deflect, obfuscate, besmirch.

 

I will address any honest, sensible posts..but not this pilpul nonsense. Got better things to do today.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

Para 1 False analogy. USA would and does meet resistance if it tried to use its military to go where it pleases world wide. In a small land such as Palestine the IDF has the overwhelming miltary might to do what it likes, children throwing stones excepted of course.

 

Para 2 So you are saying Palestinians could export all their produce, unhindered by Israel, directly throught the Gazan crossing with Egypt, which the stooge Sisi only opens periodically and Israel controls from its side going into Gaza. Such disingenous drivel.

 

As part of their system of apartheid, Israel controls every aspect of Palestinian lives.

 

I used to have some respect for your occasionally informed posts. Now I see you are reverting to the norm:  deny, deflect, obfuscate, besmirch.

 

I will address any honest, sensible posts..but not this pilpul nonsense. Got better things to do today.

 

So where is the supposed "false analogy"? The IDF does not meet resistance when it enters the Gaza Strip? The IDF maintains a constant presence in all of the West Bank? Which false claim are you trying to make, exactly?

 

With regard to the Gaza Strip-Egypt border, I'm just pointing out a fact. That you do not like this fact doesn't make it less factual. Israel does not control all relevant borders. And Egypt got enough reasons of its own to limit Palestinian access, regardless of your clueless "stooge" pronouncement.

 

The faux indignant whenever obvious inaccuracies are pointed out is a trademark. Quite amusing.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/29/2017 at 6:50 PM, Morch said:

 

The UN did not "unequivocally state" anything. The UNSG did not even accept the "report", which was commissioned by a UN body comprising of 18 Arab countries. Spin away.

Which only supports my opinion that the UN is a waste of space. If  it can't state that there is a human rights problem in Palestine then it is not worth taking any notice of, IMO.