The myth of melting ice and rising seas

[craigt3365]

43 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I guess you didn't care to see Perito Moreno, since it is still growing.

 

Did you by any chance visit Comodoro Rivadavia?

Trekked Puerto  Moreno a few times. One of the few glaciers growing. You're going to hang your hat on this ONLY one? Seriously?

[boomerangutang]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Both the short and the long time frame graphs are important We are not inspecting bodies in the forest we are investigating climate, which began a long time ago and has cycles of different durations. You'd make a fine climate scientist, deciding to ignore some of the data so your theory fits better.

Granted, climate scientists do well to study cycles stretching back millenia.  Yet now is now.

 

The crux of the current debate is what's happening now and how it affects people who are stuck in places (deserts, seashores, etc) which will be seriously affected.

....and also on into the next 100 to 200 years.  

 

I used the forensic science comparison, because a forensic scientist deals with the case at and.  He should know history and precedence, but the most important issue is the case he's currently focused on.   Again, it's about perspective. 

 

If I have a home on a clay cliff edge, and someone comes to me and cautions me to shore up my house.  I can talk for hours/days about twenty thousand other houses on clay cliff edges.  That's has some significance.  But the most pressing issue, in that scenario, is the survival of my house, right now.  

 

While I'm researching every article about every house ever built on a clay precipice in the past 5000 years, my house could fall into the ravine.

[lannarebirth]

I don't know why people like bickering about this stuff. Let's take it as a given the seal level is rising, whether that's so or not. What are you going to do about it?  

 

I'll give you some real life examples of what my city, where I own an office building 2 blocks from Puget Sound at about a 5 m elevation above MSL, is doing about it. They're about to put a 12% surcharge on my property taxes labeled "Sea Level Rise Response Surcharge" to be used to mitigate the expenses associated with giving benefits to retired employees.   In the past 2 years they have issued 12 new building permits within a 3 block radius of my building. Why would they do that if flooding were imminent?  I don't know. A cynical person might think it was all about the money.

 

Worst case I figure my building has a seal level problem sometime in the next 100- 400 years. I've already recouped the purchase price and it's on a 39 year depreciation schedule. IMO, I have much more to fear from government in that span of time than I do from Mother Nature. When they stop issuing new building permits I'll begin to take things a little more seriously.

[Credo]

14 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I don't know why people like bickering about this stuff. Let's take it as a given the seal level is rising, whether that's so or not. What are you going to do about it?  

 

I'll give you some real life examples of what my city, where I own an office building 2 blocks from Puget Sound at about a 5 m elevation above MSL, is doing about it. They're about to put a 12% surcharge on my property taxes labeled "Sea Level Rise Response Surcharge" to be used to mitigate the expenses associated with giving benefits to retired employees.   In the past 2 years they have issued 12 new building permits within a 3 block radius of my building. Why would they do that if flooding were imminent?  I don't know. A cynical person might think it was all about the money.

 

Worst case I figure my building has a seal level problem sometime in the next 100- 400 years. I've already recouped the purchase price and it's on a 39 year depreciation schedule. IMO, I have much more to fear from government in that span of time than I do from Mother Nature. When they stop issuing new building permits I'll begin to take things a little more seriously.

I am afraid that you are comparing apples and oranges if you think that what science thinks will happen and what the local gov't is willing to approve are connected.   One of the obvious things is that the issue of Climate Change has become highly politicized.   

 

The fact of the matter is that regardless of what model is used, we do not know exactly how all this will play out in the short-term, medium short-term or the long term.   How much of the water will end up as water vapor is not exactly known and that will determine how much of it ends up as liquid in the oceans.   

 

If overall warming continues, then yes, the sea levels will rise, but when and by how much, we don't know.   

[lannarebirth]

7 minutes ago, Credo said:

I am afraid that you are comparing apples and oranges if you think that what science thinks will happen and what the local gov't is willing to approve are connected.   One of the obvious things is that the issue of Climate Change has become highly politicized.   

 

The fact of the matter is that regardless of what model is used, we do not know exactly how all this will play out in the short-term, medium short-term or the long term.   How much of the water will end up as water vapor is not exactly known and that will determine how much of it ends up as liquid in the oceans.   

 

If overall warming continues, then yes, the sea levels will rise, but when and by how much, we don't know.   

 

I guess my point is that they're playing both ends of the question to their benefit. It is easy to see why scepticism exists. The government feeds it.

[uncleeagle]

10 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

Melting for 20 years, then reversed and the ice mass is falling. What kind twisted science is this?

Its what's known as a typo as should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain. My problem wth 99% of the people who think they are having a scientific discussion is they are too stupid to know they aren't, no more so than a parrot is discussing science when it is taught to repeat a set of scientific words.

[thaihome]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

I don't know why people like bickering about this stuff. Let's take it as a given the seal level is rising, whether that's so or not. What are you going to do about it?  

 

I'll give you some real life examples of what my city, where I own an office building 2 blocks from Puget Sound at about a 5 m elevation above MSL, is doing about it. They're about to put a 12% surcharge on my property taxes labeled ".   In the past 2 years they have issued 12 new building permits within a 3 block radius of my building. Why would they do that if flooding were imminent?  I don't know. A cynical person might think it was all about the money.

 

Worst case I figure my building has a seal level problem sometime in the next 100- 400 years. I've already recouped the purchase price and it's on a 39 year depreciation schedule. IMO, I have much more to fear from government in that span of time than I do from Mother Nature. When they stop issuing new building permits I'll begin to take things a little more seriously.

Can you please post a link for your "Sea Level Rise Response Surcharge" to be used to mitigate the expenses associated with giving benefits to retired employees". I can find no mention in simple Google search.

 

I find it hard to believe a property tax surcharge under the guise of "sea level response" that is used to fund city/county employees retirement accounts would not be big news and have multiple mentions in local media.

 

TH 

[lannarebirth]

16 minutes ago, thaihome said:

Can you please post a link for your "Sea Level Rise Response Surcharge" to be used to mitigate the expenses associated with giving benefits to retired employees". I can find no mention in simple Google search.

 

I find it hard to believe a property tax surcharge under the guise of "sea level response" that is used to fund city/county employees retirement accounts would not be big news and have multiple mentions in local media.

 

TH 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/974553-the-myth-of-melting-ice-and-rising-seas/?page=37&tab=comments#comment-12463567

[ilostmypassword]

On 11/20/2017 at 9:37 AM, lannarebirth said:

 

He's right and belittling him doesn't make him not right.

 

I'm not a global warming/climate change denier.  I'm prepared to believe makind's activities may be a contributing factor to that. 

 

I grew up revering scientists. I have two Bachelor of Sciences degrees and at least one of my children will be a scientist. Anyhow, I hope I've convinced you I'm not anti science or a denier of the scientific method.  

 

That said, I'm left to wonder why the purveyors of the GW/CC apocalypse that's coming don't seem to believe it themselves?  Why aren't they demanding we stop trading with countries that contribute the most to the coming disaster?  Why aren't we returning factories to my state where the air and water have gotten cleaner each and every day for the past 30 years. Where we have tough environmental standards to prevent the dire outcomes they predict. Why isn't anyone calling for policies to limit growth? Why are products not made close to the resources used to produce them and the consumers who will consume them. The materials in some products currently cross the ocean 3-4 times before being purchased. Wouldn't that be low hanging fruit in the battle against global warming/climate change? Seems they want to charge us for the bullet they want to shoot us with.

 

I'll give you a couple of personal anecdotes.

 

Two weeks ago I got an email from City Hall in a city I own an office building in. The Title : Sea Level Rise Response Planning. I called my buddy in the planning department to see what's up and since I've known him since high school he told me. He said there will be six such mailings before the request to place a surcharge on my property taxes of 12%.  I asked him what are you going to do with the money, as you're not going to stop sea level rise with that amount of money. he said no, they know that but 45% of their budget goes to pay for pensions and benefits of people that have already retired....

 

Another one.  The wharf in town where ships ttie up is constructed on huge galvanized steel pilings.  Welded om to one of these pilings is the "Mean Tide Level". It has not changed since 1974 when the wharf was constructed.

 

My second home here is in the 100 year flood plain. I don't care because that's where the beauty is. Anyway, as of January 17, 2018  because of a new FEMA datum survey it is getting shifted to the 500 year flood plain and my Lloyds policy goes down by about 60%.

 

 

So much persiflage here. For instance"

"I'm left to wonder why the purveyors of the GW/CC apocalypse that's coming don't seem to believe it themselves?  Why aren't they demanding we stop trading with countries that contribute the most to the coming disaster?  Why aren't we returning factories to my state where the air and water have gotten cleaner each and every day for the past 30 years. Where we have tough environmental standards to prevent the dire outcomes they predict. Why isn't anyone calling for policies to limit growth? Why are products not made close to the resources used to produce them and the consumers who will consume them. The materials in some products currently cross the ocean 3-4 times before being purchased. Wouldn't that be low hanging fruit in the battle against global warming/climate change? Seems they want to charge us for the bullet they want to shoot us with."

What makes you think that the scientists and others who are warning about the coming problems have the power to do these things? And who says they're not calling for some of the measures you propose? For all your talk about respect for science, it's clear that you've implicitly adopted the notion that these people are very powerful and could get this things done if they (and who exactly is ''they'} wanted to. And commercial interests such as the fossil fuels industry and the tech industry and the automobile industry etc. are relatively powerless against them.  I'm pretty sure Bernie Sanders would be appalled by such sentiments.

And you've got to be kidding about that sign welded to the wharf. You claim  to have a B.S. in science and you propose this as any kind of evidence? Or the fact that your local government is possibly using it as an excuse to raise taxes?

And you may not realize it but if the forces of government and such are lying about the effects of global warming then it seems FEMA is doing a really bad job of promoting that conspiracy by changing the designation of your flood plain from 100 to 500.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/974553-the-myth-of-melting-ice-and-rising-seas/?page=37&tab=comments#comment-12463567

Got a source that isn't yourself? 

[rice555]

Seams like someone knows everything BUT how to use Google.

rice555

[rice555]

Just incase you didn't know, Olympia is the Capital of WA.

rice555

[thaihome]

5 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/974553-the-myth-of-melting-ice-and-rising-seas/?page=37&tab=comments#comment-12463567

Your own "anecdote" is not the link I was looking for. A news media or municipal/county department was more what I had in mind. Until you can prove your alleged "sea level rise surcharge" actually exists it just factless  demoguagry.

TH   

[F4UCorsair]

On 3/21/2017 at 8:28 PM, worgeordie said:

The people of the Maldives and other low lying Islands

around the World will be ecstatic at this news,as the 

water laps at their doorsteps.

regards Worgeordie

 

It's been lapping at their doorsteps for centuries worgeordie.  What's important is that it is not lapping any higher this year than it was a hundred years ago!!

 

I heard some lunatic climate change supporter recently say that the level of oceans is rising, but it's not rising in estuaries.  Clever guy.

[craigt3365]

7 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

It's been lapping at their doorsteps for centuries worgeordie.  What's important is that it is not lapping any higher this year than it was a hundred years ago!!

 

I heard some lunatic climate change supporter recently say that the level of oceans is rising, but it's not rising in estuaries.  Clever guy.

It is rising. That's been proven. Denying it doesn't help. Just makes things worse.

 

Here's but one example.

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-louisiana-wetlands-struggling-sea-level-global.html

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:46 PM, heybruce said:

I assume, you don't believe the measurements showing ..............temperatures and CO2 concentrations rising at historically unprecedented rates.

You are within your right to debate what I have actually said. What you have no right to do is to tell untruths about what I believe, and have said on this thread. You are fond of telling other posters to provide evidence of what they said and you should do the same to support your erroneous statement, but you will not be able to as I never said that.

I have always agreed that temperatures and CO2 concentrations are rising.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

What makes you think that the scientists and others who are warning about the coming problems have the power to do these things? And who says they're not calling for some of the measures you propose? For all your talk about respect for science, it's clear that you've implicitly adopted the notion that these people are very powerful and could get this things done if they (and who exactly is ''they'} wanted to. 

Which has been my point all along. No matter what the scientists say, governments are not doing anything about the promoted problem, so either they know it isn't a real problem, or they know nothing can be don't to stop it, but it is such a good excuse to raise taxes regardless.

 

BTW, If have read much along the lines of GW and CC is happening, but sod all as to practical solutions, and never so obvious as from all the pro man made GW proponents on the pages of TVF. I have issued many challenges over the years for other posters to come up with such solutions, but to date I have yet to hear of any, at all.

Also, none have come on to say they are personally giving up all oil burning modes of transport and electricity generated by such.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

It is rising. That's been proven. Denying it doesn't help. Just makes things worse.

 

Here's but one example.

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-louisiana-wetlands-struggling-sea-level-global.html

 

I wouldn't be using them as an example. The Army Corps of Engineers has been busily engaged in modifying that ecosystem for decades.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:40 PM, craigt3365 said:

A credible showing either would be appreciated.

555555555555555555

There have been several posts on this very thread claiming that sea level rise is happening and that islands are being threatened.

I'm sure google would bring up many sites dealing with such, but I'm not going to get sucked into playing that game.

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which has been my point all along. No matter what the scientists say, governments are not doing anything about the promoted problem, so either they know it isn't a real problem, or they know nothing can be don't to stop it, but it is such a good excuse to raise taxes regardless.

 

BTW, If have read much along the lines of GW and CC is happening, but sod all as to practical solutions, and never so obvious as from all the pro man made GW proponents on the pages of TVF. I have issued many challenges over the years for other posters to come up with such solutions, but to date I have yet to hear of any, at all.

Also, none have come on to say they are personally giving up all oil burning modes of transport and electricity generated by such.

More nonsense. I have repeatedly cited to you the extremely rapid rise in the use of renewable sources of electricity and you just ignore it to troll on.

[craigt3365]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wouldn't be using them as an example. The Army Corps of Engineers has been busily engaged in modifying that ecosystem for decades.

Here's the big problem. Supposedly intelligent people questioning good research.

[craigt3365]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

555555555555555555

There have been several posts on this very thread claiming that sea level rise is happening and that islands are being threatened.

I'm sure google would bring up many sites dealing with such, but I'm not going to get sucked into playing that game.

So ya got nothing. LOL. Figures.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

More nonsense. I have repeatedly cited to you the extremely rapid rise in the use of renewable sources of electricity and you just ignore it to troll on.

A rapid rise in a few countries with a minority of the world's population. Meanwhile in the rest of the world.................................

Trolling! Is that the best you can do? 

[thaibeachlovers]

21 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

So ya got nothing. LOL. Figures.

Edited, as flaming is not worth responding to.

[boomerangutang]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which has been my point all along. No matter what the scientists say, governments are not doing anything about the promoted problem, so either they know it isn't a real problem, or they know nothing can be don't to stop it, but it is such a good excuse to raise taxes regardless.

 

BTW, If have read much along the lines of GW and CC is happening, but sod all as to practical solutions, and never so obvious as from all the pro man made GW proponents on the pages of TVF. I have issued many challenges over the years for other posters to come up with such solutions, but to date I have yet to hear of any, at all.

Also, none have come on to say they are personally giving up all oil burning modes of transport and electricity generated by such.

Your first paragraph only relates to Right Wingers and Republicans in the US, plus maybe Syria's Assad (They're two groups out of all the countries in the world which don't agree with the Paris Accords).

Nearly every other country, ww, believes scientists and are concerned.  Most are doing tangible things to try and lessen growing temps.  Even in the US (mostly 'blue states' like CA) there are efforts to clean the environment and lessen factors that lead to a warming planet.  California has rules mandating phasing in of electric vehicles, for example.

 

No one is saying people can STOP GW (you used the word 'stop').  The best we (the sensible science-believing people of the world) can hope for is a lessening of pollution, and lessening of activities which exacerbate GW.

 

You haven't heard of any 'solutions' being offered?   Have you heard of alternative energy?  Solar?  Wind?  Again, there are no 'silver bullet' instant solutions.  Any 2nd grader can tell you that.

 

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Your first paragraph only relates to Right Wingers and Republicans in the US, plus maybe Syria's Assad (They're two groups out of all the countries in the world which don't agree with the Paris Accords).

Nearly every other country, ww, believes scientists and are concerned.  Most are doing tangible things to try and lessen growing temps.  Even in the US (mostly 'blue states' like CA) there are efforts to clean the environment and lessen factors that lead to a warming planet.  California has rules mandating phasing in of electric vehicles, for example.

 

No one is saying people can STOP GW (you used the word 'stop').  The best we (the sensible science-believing people of the world) can hope for is a lessening of pollution, and lessening of activities which exacerbate GW.

 

You haven't heard of any 'solutions' being offered?   Have you heard of alternative energy?  Solar?  Wind?  Again, there are no 'silver bullet' instant solutions.  Any 2nd grader can tell you that.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't bother with him. I've cited and linked to detailed evidence over and over again in response to his comments. He's just trolling.

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That makes two of us then.

You never even looked at that link. 

 

Can you please find another topic to follow?

[boomerangutang]

It's interesting; the % of deniers who post on the GW topics in T.Visa.

 

In the general public, I'd guess that believers-in-science and believers-in-GW are up in the 90 percentile range.   Yet, on T.Visa, it seems we're in the 50's or 60's %.

 

My personal theory of why:  Most posters on T.Visa, in order to be able to reside comfortably in Thailand, probably have retirement revenue.  Along with that, they're mostly over 40.  In order to get retirement payments from a home country, a person will more likely have had a 'straight' job (steady employment with benefits).   Many people with 'straight jobs' including benefits tend to be conservative (who tend to side with fossil fuel industry propaganda).  Perhaps I'm inserting too many assumptions into this missive, but.....

 

Another factor is:  deniers get a kick out of voicing their contrarianism.  Deniers will say, out of one side of their mouths, that there is no warming.  Then, a day later, they will admit there's warming, but insist it cannot be human-affected ("humans are too small and insignificant on a world scale").  They'll claim that ice levels are increasing in the Arctic, and.....  a day later they'll say the scientific evidence for decreased glacier sizes is a hoax designed to make crooked scientists rich from grant money.   They'll say GW is a hoax because of carbon taxes, and so on, ad nauseum.    

 

I hope deniers aren't teaching at schools - and influencing youngsters.  

 

 

[F4UCorsair]

Man made emissions are about 3% of the total emissions, the other 97% coming from natural sources.

 

If anybody thinks that be reducing man made emissions to zero overnight, and have the world's population living in the cold and dark, will make a difference, they are egotistical and delusional.  Trying to make a change is like pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly.

 

The climate has always changed, but man is not contributing to a degree that will make a difference.   Those contending otherwise will go down as perpetrating the greatest lie of our time, if not all time. 

[uncleeagle]

1 hour ago, F4UCorsair said:

Man made emissions are about 3% of the total emissions, the other 97% coming from natural sources.

 

If anybody thinks that be reducing man made emissions to zero overnight, and have the world's population living in the cold and dark, will make a difference, they are egotistical and delusional.  Trying to make a change is like pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly.

 

The climate has always changed, but man is not contributing to a degree that will make a difference.   Those contending otherwise will go down as perpetrating the greatest lie of our time, if not all time. 

 

nope, a minimum 30% of current atmospheric levels are now due to man made activities.

 

for roughly 600,000 years the range was 100 to 300 ppm but over the last century that range was broken and the level rose quickly to 400ppm, the additional 100 having risen at such a fast rate that only man made activities could have been the cause, all previous natural drivers having much slower time scales.

 

furthermore, the mass of this additional level agrees very well with the amount of carbon known to have been burned since the start of the industrial revolution.

 

its us, all the evidence points to that.