The myth of melting ice and rising seas

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Watchful said:

No question that electric motors run cleaner than IC engines. Problem is their batteries are charged over night by electricity generated in power plants ... belching smoke. 

Which is why they should be investing in fuel cell technology instead of polluting batteries requiring polluting power stations to charge.

As usual, they got it wrong.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

You  missed  out  Ministers  of   Religion ! 

No, most ministers actually believe what they preach. Politicians and used car salesmen know that they are lying, but do so anyway because they think the people are too stupid to know the truth. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, ricklev said:

Just curious, do y'all think people who smoke cigarettes are more likely to get lung cancer.  If not, OK, fair enough.  If so, when and why did you start believing that?  I'm just trying to understand science and scientists and all that.  

 

 

I don't know if people that smoke are more likely, but I just wish they'd stop puffing on their filthy tobacco and polluting my space, then throwing the butts away for others to pick up because they are antisocial.

Same reason I don't know if humans are making the air warmer, but I wish they'd stop polluting everything because they are ignorant antisocial selfish idiots, like the people running motors just so they can have AC in the car, even though not going anywhere.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

My favourite is pumping water uphill. They have been doing that for years at night.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

There was a project in Australia ( if I remember correctly ) to use wave pumps to move sea water up hill to a reservoir which then generated hydro power. Seems the perfect solution and totally non polluting once the machinery has been built.

[Dumbastheycome]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There was a project in Australia ( if I remember correctly ) to use wave pumps to move sea water up hill to a reservoir which then generated hydro power. Seems the perfect solution and totally non polluting once the machinery has been built.

You  are  on a  roll  today  ! lol

[Watchful]

17 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which is why they should be investing in fuel cell technology instead of polluting batteries requiring polluting power stations to charge.

As usual, they got it wrong.

 

That darling of the environmentalists Elon Musk calls them "fool cells".

 

Tell us, from where do we get the hydrogen?  Natural gas? Electrolysis of water where the massive amounts of electricity comes from those power plants ... belching smoke?

 

The other thing you completely ignored is that fuel cells still require ... wait for it ... batteries!  The fuel cells charge batteries similar to the scheme in Toyota's Prius.  Fuel cells are very slow to start and they really don't have a throttle.  They pretty much produce electricity at a constant rate.  Most vehicles require the ability to vary power from almost nothing to a lot!  Now there are some trivial situations such as ocean vessels and trains that require continuous power for long stretches, but then the problem becomes storing the hydrogen.  Energy stored in the form of hydrogen is not very dense and you need tons of space.  

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, Watchful said:

 

That darling of the environmentalists Elon Musk calls them "fool cells".

 

Tell us, from where do we get the hydrogen?  Natural gas? Electrolysis of water where the massive amounts of electricity comes from those power plants ... belching smoke?

 

The other thing you completely ignored is that fuel cells still require ... wait for it ... batteries!  The fuel cells charge batteries similar to the scheme in Toyota's Prius.  Fuel cells are very slow to start and they really don't have a throttle.  They pretty much produce electricity at a constant rate.  Most vehicles require the ability to vary power from almost nothing to a lot!  Now there are some trivial situations such as ocean vessels and trains that require continuous power for long stretches, but then the problem becomes storing the hydrogen.  Energy stored in the form of hydrogen is not very dense and you need tons of space.  

^{It may well be that fuel cells will fail in the competition to power autos. But apart from the storage question, it won't be for the reasons you cited.}

Is there something inherently different about electricity generated from renewable sources that would make it unsuitable for electrolysis? One is reminded of John Cleese's letter to the power company which closes with:  ''However, I should like to congratulate you on the continuing excellent quality of your electricity.''

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/25/magazine/cleese-up-close.html?pagewanted=all

And as for your comments about fuel cells unsuitablity for autos, you really believe that that Toyota and others don't have your point about power variability covered?

"At low speeds such as city driving, the FCV runs just like any all-electric car by using the energy stored in its battery, which is charged through regenerative braking. At higher speeds, the hydrogen fuel cell alone powers the electric motor. When more power is needed, for example during sudden acceleration, the battery supports the fuel cell system as both work together to provide propulsion.^[21]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai}

It may well be that fuel cells will fail in the competition to power autos. But apart from the storage question, it won't be for the reasons you cited.

 

 

[canuckamuck]

Also hydrogen can be stored as a solid, the holy grail would be conversion of water to hydrogen on the fly. That way you just fill your tank with a garden hose

Sent from my ASUS_X008D using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Watchful]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which is why they should be investing in fuel cell technology instead of polluting batteries requiring polluting power stations to charge.

As usual, they got it wrong.

 

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

^{It may well be that fuel cells will fail in the competition to power autos. But apart from the storage question, it won't be for the reasons you cited.}

Is there something inherently different about electricity generated from renewable sources that would make it unsuitable for electrolysis? One is reminded of John Cleese's letter to the power company which closes with:  ''However, I should like to congratulate you on the continuing excellent quality of your electricity.''

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/25/magazine/cleese-up-close.html?pagewanted=all

And as for your comments about fuel cells unsuitablity for autos, you really believe that that Toyota and others don't have your point about power variability covered?

"At low speeds such as city driving, the FCV runs just like any all-electric car by using the energy stored in its battery, which is charged through regenerative braking. At higher speeds, the hydrogen fuel cell alone powers the electric motor. When more power is needed, for example during sudden acceleration, the battery supports the fuel cell system as both work together to provide propulsion.^[21]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai}

It may well be that fuel cells will fail in the competition to power autos. But apart from the storage question, it won't be for the reasons you cited.

 

 

Thank you for providing the proof of my contention that "fool cells" require polluting batteries. (That was the contention in my post.)

 

Problem with renewables is the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow.

 

Here is your chance to prove us all wrong. Starting right now ... you exist only on renewables.  Get your self a wind turbine, some solar panels, build your own fuel cell and electrolysis system.  Get an all electric car and recharge the batteries at night with solar and wind power. 

 

Stop talking and start doing.  After all, you have all the answers.

[ilostmypassword]

30 minutes ago, Watchful said:

 

Thank you for providing the proof of my contention that "fool cells" require polluting batteries. (That was the contention in my post.)

 

Problem with renewables is the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow.

 

Here is your chance to prove us all wrong. Starting right now ... you exist only on renewables.  Get your self a wind turbine, some solar panels, build your own fuel cell and electrolysis system.  Get an all electric car and recharge the batteries at night with solar and wind power. 

 

Stop talking and start doing.  After all, you have all the answers.

Because storage solutions aren't getting better all the time? Look up what Elon Musk did in Australia. And once Solid State batteries replace lithium ion, the storage problem will be solved. And even if renewables don't get to 100 percent of generated electricity their percentage is increasing. So that means a decreasing portion of hydrogen would be generated via an ultimate combustion source.  And as for belching smoke, coal is on its way out because of hard economic reasons. It's not even compettive with natural gas or solar in much of the world already and the trend is getting stronger.  And  Natural gas doesn't belch smoke and it's a lot easier and cheaper to control pollution at one source than to have to build pollution controls into each vehicle.

I don't have all the answers, but I do have better ones than do you.

[Ron19]

An off topic post has been removed after a report was made.

[Watchful]

22 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Because storage solutions aren't getting better all the time? Look up what Elon Musk did in Australia. And once Solid State batteries replace lithium ion, the storage problem will be solved. And even if renewables don't get to 100 percent of generated electricity their percentage is increasing. So that means a decreasing portion of hydrogen would be generated via an ultimate combustion source.  And as for belching smoke, coal is on its way out because of hard economic reasons. It's not even compettive with natural gas or solar in much of the world already and the trend is getting stronger.  And  Natural gas doesn't belch smoke and it's a lot easier and cheaper to control pollution at one source than to have to build pollution controls into each vehicle.

I don't have all the answers, but I do have better ones than do you.

 

Solid state batteries IMO might be a great solution for cell phones, iPhones, tablets and laptops. They have the potential for good energy density. Their weakness is currents are limited through solid - solid interfaces.  Lithium ion batteries can totally discharge in short periods of time without self destructing. This is why lithium ion has totally revolutionized the remote control model market.

 

Vehicles are similar in many respects to rc models.  That is, there are times when you need tons of current.

 

As for natural gas ... Yes it is cleaner than coal, but it's still a hydrocarbon. That means it still puts out CO2 in large quantities. Sulfur is significantly reduced, making it somewhat cleaner. 

 

Don't forget it is Elon Musk who calls fuel cell "fool cells".  He believes storing energy in the form of hydrogen is a massive looser.

[RickBradford]

Indeed, climate research is unearthing new and important discoveries every day, which will help us to save the Arctic ice

 

This is especially true in Australia, where funding for the following breakthrough research was made possible by funding from the Australian Research Council Discovery Grant - Making Less Space for Carbon: Cultural Research for Climate Change Mitigation and Adaptation.

 

Quote

I draw on feminist ideas of the body as a physiological, psychological and sociological assemblage out of which spatially situated knowledge, ethics, subjectivities and social relations are forged.

Yes, but what about the climate?

 

Quote

Empirical evidence is drawn from self-reflexive accounts of 21 young women living in Wollongong, New South Wales, Australia. Their narratives convey how sweat and sweatiness are integral to negotiating everyday life.

Ah, that's more like it.

 

Quote

In focusing on women, this article does not seek to fix this category. The starting point is the premise that 'woman' and 'man' are contingent, performative and felt categories.

Hooray, the sea ice is saved! Your climate research tax dollars at work.

[JimmyJ]

 

"Heart-Wrenching Video Shows Starving Polar Bear on Iceless Land

 

Lack of sea ice is making it more difficult for polar bears to find food."

 

 

 

"The Climate Change Link

By telling the story of one polar bear, Nicklen hopes to convey a larger message about how a warming climate has deadly consequences.

Polar bears have long been unwitting mascots for the effects of climate change. As animals that live only in Arctic regions, they're often the first to feel the impacts of warming temperatures and rising seas."

 

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/polar-bear-starving-arctic-sea-ice-melt-climate-change-spd/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=link_tw20171208news-starvingpolarbear&utm_campaign=Content&sf175717315=1

[ilostmypassword]

39 minutes ago, Watchful said:

 

Solid state batteries IMO might be a great solution for cell phones, iPhones, tablets and laptops. They have the potential for good energy density. Their weakness is currents are limited through solid - solid interfaces.  Lithium ion batteries can totally discharge in short periods of time without self destructing. This is why lithium ion has totally revolutionized the remote control model market.

 

Vehicles are similar in many respects to rc models.  That is, there are times when you need tons of current.

 

As for natural gas ... Yes it is cleaner than coal, but it's still a hydrocarbon. That means it still puts out CO2 in large quantities. Sulfur is significantly reduced, making it somewhat cleaner. 

Your information is way out of date. Toyota has announced that they plan to use solid state batteries by the mid 2020's. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-tokyo-toyota-battery/toyota-scrambles-to-ready-game-changer-ev-battery-for-mass-market-idUSKBN1CW27Y

And they're not alone. Just do a search. What you're citing must be very old stuff indeed.

And as for  "batteries can totally discharge in short periods of time without self destructing" it's been repeatedly demonstrated the lithium ion batteries are really good at self-destructing with sometimes horrifying consequences. And solid state batteries have no problem releasing electricity quickly. And they won't self destruct in pretty much any circumstance, unlike lithium ion batteries.

And as for natural gas vs. coal. Natural gas produces negligible amounts of sulfur emissions. That goes for mercury emissions, too. . And per unit of heat generated, it yields less CO2 than does coal. 

So, natural gas doesn't burn somewhat cleaner, but rather massively cleaner than does coal.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, Watchful said:

 

That darling of the environmentalists Elon Musk calls them "fool cells".

 

Tell us, from where do we get the hydrogen?  Natural gas? Electrolysis of water where the massive amounts of electricity comes from those power plants ... belching smoke?

 

The other thing you completely ignored is that fuel cells still require ... wait for it ... batteries!  The fuel cells charge batteries similar to the scheme in Toyota's Prius.  Fuel cells are very slow to start and they really don't have a throttle.  They pretty much produce electricity at a constant rate.  Most vehicles require the ability to vary power from almost nothing to a lot!  Now there are some trivial situations such as ocean vessels and trains that require continuous power for long stretches, but then the problem becomes storing the hydrogen.  Energy stored in the form of hydrogen is not very dense and you need tons of space.  

I wasn't aware big companies like Toyota were into pursuing "fools" technology, and I guess London must be wrong to use fuel cell buses then.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-tokyo-hydrogen/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-idUSKBN1CV0I2

 

http://www.hydrogenlondon.org/projects/london-hydrogen-bus-project/

 

Hey, you can enjoy your long wait to recharge, while all the fuel cell cars go zooming by.

 

I recognise that some technologies fail, but not always because they are bad. Remember Beta vdo recorders?

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Watchful said:

 

Solid state batteries IMO might be a great solution for cell phones, iPhones, tablets and laptops. They have the potential for good energy density. Their weakness is currents are limited through solid - solid interfaces.  Lithium ion batteries can totally discharge in short periods of time without self destructing. This is why lithium ion has totally revolutionized the remote control model market.

 

Vehicles are similar in many respects to rc models.  That is, there are times when you need tons of current.

 

As for natural gas ... Yes it is cleaner than coal, but it's still a hydrocarbon. That means it still puts out CO2 in large quantities. Sulfur is significantly reduced, making it somewhat cleaner. 

 

Don't forget it is Elon Musk who calls fuel cell "fool cells".  He believes storing energy in the form of hydrogen is a massive looser.

You're quoting a man with a vested interest in negating fuel cell technology . Rule number 1- follow the money.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, RickBradford said:

Indeed, climate research is unearthing new and important discoveries every day, which will help us to save the Arctic ice

 

This is especially true in Australia, where funding for the following breakthrough research was made possible by funding from the Australian Research Council Discovery Grant - Making Less Space for Carbon: Cultural Research for Climate Change Mitigation and Adaptation.

 

Yes, but what about the climate?

 

Ah, that's more like it.

 

Hooray, the sea ice is saved! Your climate research tax dollars at work.

Given that that research was carried out by someone with a degree, and no doubt refers to themselves as a scientist, it just supports my premise which I have often stated that scientists and people with degrees are not always clever or correct. However, I think the author was actually very clever to liberate a substantial amount of $ into their own pocket with such an nonsense.

If I were that clever I'd never have had to do a day's toil in my entire life.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

"Heart-Wrenching Video Shows Starving Polar Bear on Iceless Land

 

Lack of sea ice is making it more difficult for polar bears to find food."

 

 

 

"The Climate Change Link

By telling the story of one polar bear, Nicklen hopes to convey a larger message about how a warming climate has deadly consequences.

Polar bears have long been unwitting mascots for the effects of climate change. As animals that live only in Arctic regions, they're often the first to feel the impacts of warming temperatures and rising seas."

 

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/polar-bear-starving-arctic-sea-ice-melt-climate-change-spd/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=link_tw20171208news-starvingpolarbear&utm_campaign=Content&sf175717315=1

Given that mankind is destroying and has destroyed countless species without a thought, what makes a large predator worthy of our concern? If that one dies, many seals will live.

In the end, humans are the biggest problem for other species, so perhaps it is time for the human race to stop breeding to destruction. 

I'll support free euthanasia on demand, contraception and abortion likewise, before I'll try and save an animal that would kill me horribly and eat me.

[canuckamuck]

3 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

 

"Heart-Wrenching Video Shows Starving Polar Bear on Iceless Land

 

Lack of sea ice is making it more difficult for polar bears to find food."

 

 

 

"The Climate Change Link

By telling the story of one polar bear, Nicklen hopes to convey a larger message about how a warming climate has deadly consequences.

Polar bears have long been unwitting mascots for the effects of climate change. As animals that live only in Arctic regions, they're often the first to feel the impacts of warming temperatures and rising seas."

 

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/polar-bear-starving-arctic-sea-ice-melt-climate-change-spd/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=link_tw20171208news-starvingpolarbear&utm_campaign=Content&sf175717315=1

Quote

By telling the story of one polar bear

It's good that he is telling the story of just that one mangy old polar bear, and not the 1000's of new polar bears counted as the population has been increasing since 2001

Link

[RickBradford]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that that research was carried out by someone with a degree, and no doubt refers to themselves as a scientist, it just supports my premise which I have often stated that scientists and people with degrees are not always clever or correct. However, I think the author was actually very clever to liberate a substantial amount of $ into their own pocket with such an nonsense.

If I were that clever I'd never have had to do a day's toil in my entire life.

Then I guess it also wasn't you who authored "Vulnerabilities and Contributions of the LGBTTQ communities within the context of climate change: sea-level rise unpacked from an decolonial non-heteronormative perspective"?

[Dumbastheycome]

Can't  help  but   wonder  if  the  decease  in arctic  ice has  made  it  easier  to  actually  see  and  count  the   number of  polar  bears  rather  than extrapolating a  sample  population as  the  premise  of  total  distribution?  lol

[Watchful]

16 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Your information is way out of date. Toyota has announced that they plan to use solid state batteries by the mid 2020's. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-tokyo-toyota-battery/toyota-scrambles-to-ready-game-changer-ev-battery-for-mass-market-idUSKBN1CW27Y

And they're not alone. Just do a search. What you're citing must be very old stuff indeed.

And as for  "batteries can totally discharge in short periods of time without self destructing" it's been repeatedly demonstrated the lithium ion batteries are really good at self-destructing with sometimes horrifying consequences. And solid state batteries have no problem releasing electricity quickly. And they won't self destruct in pretty much any circumstance, unlike lithium ion batteries.

And as for natural gas vs. coal. Natural gas produces negligible amounts of sulfur emissions. That goes for mercury emissions, too. . And per unit of heat generated, it yields less CO2 than does coal. 

So, natural gas doesn't burn somewhat cleaner, but rather massively cleaner than does coal.

 

Yes, when shorted  lithium batteries are very dangerous for the very reason I cited. They have a very low internal resistance.  This allows them to discharged in a controlled (non-shorted) way in a very short period of time without harming the batteries.

 

This is still true ... it is not old.

 

What you quoted is a "wish list" of what Toyota would like to do. They even admit they have major problems to solve. There is no guarantee the solid state obstacles will be overcome. To assume these things can be commercialized is a huge leap of faith and is not the current situation.

 

Yes, natural gas is cleaner and it is cheaper, but it is also tied to politics. If more governors follow the lead of the liberal Democrats like Cumo and totally ban hydrofracking, the supply and economics quickly change.  That is, the price will skyrocket as the supply diminishes.