Govt floats long-term land leases for foreigners

[MyFriend You]

21 hours ago, bmore99 said:

Why bother. Usefruct gives you the legal use and benefits of the land for lifetime. Regardless any change in ownership.

Sent from my SM-A800F using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

It can be challenged in court when ownership changes hands.........Greed above all else runs this country, not rule of law.............

[Thaidream]

You can never be sure when leasing anything in Thailand that the person/company you are dealing with is not only legitimate but has actual title to whate they are selling. The only way to be sure is to do the investigation yourself and that is very difficult even if you can read Thai.  You need someone who has real experience in land sales and contracts who can go to land offices and find the documentation and verify details. That is why banks verify every detail before granting a mortgage. 

If you as a foreigner are unable to do this or able to have a trusted family member do this- I would never buy ......there are situations that occur involving land/condo sales in this country that are beyond one's belief....yet they happen.

[Krenjai]

I want to make one addition to my earlier post. Although I am not a lawyer in my opinion I think the safest way in all of this if people go into a lease contract with renewal options they must make sure they also get control of the land owning company. Even if the land owning company always needs to be 51% Thai owned, it can be structured in such a way that the other 49% has control of the company voting rights and therefore controls what happens. This is not circumventing the law!  And is different than creating a separate Thai company with 'fake' Thai nominees to 'own' the land, that is officially illegal.

 

By the way: this 50 year lease is just a BS pitch, as soon as this is possible I am sure we will see everywhere sprout up like weed:

 

• 50+50
• 50+50+50 (LOL!)

 

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, little mary sunshine said:

Two friends from Australia have chosen Malaysia because of

home ownership as well as Visa requirements.....beautiful,new

homes for approx.  (in Baht) 12M...  they are quite happy!!

 

 Quite a lot of money, you get one hell of a house in Thailand for that much, what sort of property are we talking, and where?  I do like Malaysia, not sure I trust their politics though, I knew a group of Christians there who lived in constant fear, many of their acquaintances had been taken in by the religious police and interrogated as to whether they were planning to convert from Islam and they felt that they were constantly under surveillance, I think it would be a concern being a Christian living there, you can put other people at the risk just as well as yourself being accused of trying to convert people, people don't realise just how many fundamental Islamists there are in Malaysia and just how influential they really are.

[Shawn0000]

49 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You can never be sure when leasing anything in Thailand that the person/company you are dealing with is not only legitimate but has actual title to whate they are selling. The only way to be sure is to do the investigation yourself and that is very difficult even if you can read Thai.  You need someone who has real experience in land sales and contracts who can go to land offices and find the documentation and verify details. That is why banks verify every detail before granting a mortgage. 

If you as a foreigner are unable to do this or able to have a trusted family member do this- I would never buy ......there are situations that occur involving land/condo sales in this country that are beyond one's belief....yet they happen.

 

Wuldnt you just hire a lawyer to do that for you?

[Shawn0000]

12 minutes ago, Krenjai said:

I want to make one addition to my earlier post. Although I am not a lawyer in my opinion I think the safest way in all of this if people go into a lease contract with renewal options they must make sure they also get control of the land owning company. Even if the land owning company always needs to be 51% Thai owned, it can be structured in such a way that the other 49% has control of the company voting rights and therefore controls what happens. This is not circumventing the law!  And is different than creating a separate Thai company with 'fake' Thai nominees to 'own' the land, that is officially illegal.

 

By the way: this 50 year lease is just a BS pitch, as soon as this is possible I am sure we will see everywhere sprout up like weed:

 

• 50+50
• 50+50+50 (LOL!)

 

 

Presumably the simplest way would be to own 49% and have two other Thai owners, one owning 26% and the other owning 25%, that way you have the majority share, but perhaps one could sell to the other and get the majority that way?

[Thaidream]

No, I would not hire a lawyer to do my own due diligence because I would not trust the lawyer to be  forthright or to actually due the proper investigation. Every Time I have been involved in a property purchase I have gone to the land office with a trusted family member and made sure everything that waas presented to me in the way of documentation was correct and that the land office had the same documentation.

Thai banks that deal with mortgages have their own staff go directly to the source and they verify everything personally. One thing I have learned in Thailand is to ask the same question several times to several people before I accept the answer as correct.

[lungnorm]

How many foreigners do they expect to live long enough for this to be a good idea. ?????

[Destiny1990]

13 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Wuldnt you just hire a lawyer to do that for you?

14 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 Quite a lot of money, you get one hell of a house in Thailand for that much, what sort of property are we talking, and where?  I do like Malaysia, not sure I trust their politics though, I knew a group of Christians there who lived in constant fear, many of their acquaintances had been taken in by the religious police and interrogated as to whether they were planning to convert from Islam and they felt that they were constantly under surveillance, I think it would be a concern being a Christian living there, you can put other people at the risk just as well as yourself being accused of trying to convert people, people don't realise just how many fundamental Islamists there are in Malaysia and just how influential they really are.

Malaysia is simply a dead boring country but with balanced property and visa laws.I just read posts here that Vietnam offers 99 yrs leases and real  landownership for foreigners but no idea if  its true and i never even been to Vietnam

[Krenjai]

9 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Presumably the simplest way would be to own 49% and have two other Thai owners, one owning 26% and the other owning 25%, that way you have the majority share, but perhaps one could sell to the other and get the majority that way?

Too risky, because yes Thai 1 could sell to Thai 2 and then has the majority again unless the company is structured in such a way that the majority shareholder (49% in this example) needs to agree to any sale or transfer of ownership of shares. 

[wealthychef]

5 hours ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

Okay I will tell you why. 7 years ago we bought a house for B 4,5 million and spend a further B 1,5 m in extending it. So our total cost was B 6 m. We spend about B 20 000 per year on repair and maintenance. So our capital outlay plus maintenance cost was B 6 140 000.

 

If we rented a place the rent would have been B 40 000 pm. Over the 7 year period the rent would have been:  7 years x 12 months x B 40 000 = B 3 360 000. If we then invested the B 6,14 m we spend on the house our after tax return would have been B 156 000 per year or B 1 092 000 for 7 years (fixed investment at bank). Even if we sell the house at a breakeven amount of B 6,14 million we still have gained B 2 268 000 (B 3,36 m - B 1,092 m).

 

If we invested in the Thai stock exchange (as you suggested) it would be extremely risky but also impossible to beat the figures above. To breakeven with buying option you must have obtained a return of B 3,36 million on an investment of B 6,14 million. That would be a 55% after tax return on investment over the 7 years or an 8% average after tax return per year. Good luck with that I will choose my house everyday thanks.

And how has inflation been over that time?  How has the currency held up vs. the dollar?  I'd rather invest in the US stock market and pay rent. 

[Destiny1990]

4 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

And how has inflation been over that time?  How has the currency held up vs. the dollar?  I'd rather invest in the US stock market and pay rent. 

Paper assets are no real assets..

[wealthychef]

3 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Paper assets are no real assets..

Ridiculous.  Your ownership of the condo or house you might buy exists only on paper.  I can buy your house or one like it with my "no real assets" any time I want.  

 

[CharlieH]

A post written in al CAPS has been removed.

This is generally regarded as "shouting".

 

Forum Netiquette
 
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[geriatrickid]

On 24 March, 2017 at 5:41 AM, uchibenkei said:

There are ways around land ownership laws.  I wouldn't bother with a lease.

No there are not.  You may think you have fooled the system. You have not. The only person  you have fooled is yourself.

The courts have  not strayed from the enforcement of the ownership provisions ever.

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

To make a law that need all persons involved in a sale or change of ownership of a company and or change in title deed mandatory have to show up in person.Also company owned houses probable need to be restructured.

Well that hasn't been done and never looks likely to be done, but even if it was you are missing the key point.....Corruption always has and always will be endemic in Thailand and no amount of laws will overcome that, so you are always likely to get screwed over no matter what!

Edited March 25, 2017 by xylophone

[Karlo]

 

1 hour ago, Krenjai said:

I want to make one addition to my earlier post. Although I am not a lawyer in my opinion I think the safest way in all of this if people go into a lease contract with renewal options they must make sure they also get control of the land owning company. Even if the land owning company always needs to be 51% Thai owned, it can be structured in such a way that the other 49% has control of the company voting rights and therefore controls what happens. This is not circumventing the law!  And is different than creating a separate Thai company with 'fake' Thai nominees to 'own' the land, that is officially illegal.

 

By the way: this 50 year lease is just a BS pitch, as soon as this is possible I am sure we will see everywhere sprout up like weed:

 

• 50+50
• 50+50+50 (LOL!)

 

Even if the land owning company always needs to be 51% Thai owned, it can be structured in such a way that the other 49% has control of the company voting rights and therefore controls what happens. This is not circumventing the law!  And is different than creating a separate Thai company with 'fake' Thai nominees to 'own' the land, that is officially illegal.......

Can you please explain this concept in a little more detail as to how to implement it.... much appreciated

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

 

 

Vietnam does not offer land ownership for foreigners, you can own one house as long as it is your main address but not land.

 

I wouldn't say that Malaysia is just a boring country though. it has some of the best natural sites I have ever seen, there is little night life though if that's what you are after, it does have som but it is phenomenally expensive and illegal, but its there, its much like the hiso karaoke scene here.  But the beaches are incredible, as are the National parks, it's a very clean and well managed place, I do like it but I probably wouldn't live there again, and I only did last time for a couple months, not  enough time to really know the place.

[Destiny1990]

2 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Vietnam does not offer land ownership for foreigners, you can own one house as long as it is your main address but not land.

 

I wouldn't say that Malaysia is just a boring country though. it has some of the best natural sites I have ever seen, there is little night life though if that's what you are after, it does have som but it is phenomenally expensive and illegal, but its there, its much like the hiso karaoke scene here.  But the beaches are incredible, as are the National parks, it's a very clean and well managed place, I do like it but I probably wouldn't live there again, and I only did last time for a couple months, not  enough time to really know the place.

KL is a extremely smelly conjested place and Penang is a sleeping deadboring village town where all lights are out at 8 pm.I never went back.They have balanced ownership rules yes i admit that.Vietnam why i read here about 99 leases and full ownership maybe fake news?

[Shawn0000]

 

35 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Well that hasn't been done and never looks likely to be done, but even if it was you are missing the key point.....Corruption always has and always will be endemic in Thailand and no amount of laws will overcome that, so you are always likely to get screwed over no matter what!

 

Really, you've just excepted corruption for eternity and don't even believe that it even possible to stop it?  Well, that attitude is the one that Is preventing it being stopped.

 

Of course a law could stop it, start putting people in jail for curruption, mix up police from different stations everyday, and tell them that sometimes they will be working with an undercover looking for corrupt police, put politicians in jail for long sentences, confiscate all their assets, give rewards to the public for reporting corruption and fines for partaking, and most importantly end this ludicrous defamation law so that we can start making police reports without ending up being charged ourselves.

 

It has been achieved in other countries, you just need to look at Eastern Europe, how some countries descended into absolute corruption following the end of the union and how most of them have recovered and ended the majority of their corruption to see that is can be done, and those countries had way worse corruption than Thailand has seen.

[Shawn0000]

5 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

KL is a extremely smelly conjested place and Penang is a sleeping deadboring village town where all lights are out at 8 pm.I never went back.They have balanced ownership rules yes i admit that.Vietnam why i read here about 99 leases and full ownership maybe fake news?

 

I do not like either KL or Penang either, but there is a lot more to Malaysia than those two places, Cameron Highlands, Perhentian Islands, Taman Negara, all absolutely amazing places.  But, yes, it is lights out at 8pm, unless you know where to go, there are underground bars in even small towns, but it is very hush hush, you need to be taken to them, you would never notice one from the outside.

 

Vietnam may have 99 year leases, I don't know, but you cannot own land freehold, of that I am certain, full ownership of one house and it's garden is possible though, just no more land than the immediate garden.

[Destiny1990]

4 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 

Really, you've just excepted corruption for eternity and don't even believe that it even possible to stop it?  Well, that attitude is the one that Is preventing it being stopped.

 

Of course a law could stop it, start putting people in jail for curruption, mix up police from different stations everyday, and tell them that sometimes they will be working with an undercover looking for corrupt police, put politicians in jail for long sentences, confiscate all their assets, give rewards to the public for reporting corruption and fines for partaking, and most importantly end this ludicrous defamation law so that we can start making police reports without ending up being charged ourselves.

 

It has been achieved in other countries, you just need to look at Eastern Europe, how some countries descended into absolute corruption following the end of the union and how most of them have recovered and ended the majority of their corruption to see that is can be done, and those countries had way worse corruption than Thailand has seen.

More effective will be to have law that all parties must show up in person in case of any change in company and titledeed ownership documents.

[BernieOnTour]

That story tells all .... :

 

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2016/02/07/1454838111/

[xylophone]

3 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

Well, that attitude is the one that Is preventing it being stopped.

And of course, not wanting to be rude, but that statement is a nonsense. If you live in Thailand you accept it because it is a way of life and has been since time immemorial here.

 

Nothing that I can do with my attitude can prevent corruption here – – in any way, shape or form. And there are laws governing corruption in just about all walks of life, but they don't work because this place is corrupt from the top down.

[Shawn0000]

2 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

More effective will be to have law that all parties must show up in person in case of any change in company and titledeed ownership documents.

 

That would be easily corrupted, it only takes some money to produce a fake power of attorney, happens all the time.  The most effective way will be to tackle corruption as a whole rather than trying to find solutions to each and every little issue as they will just be met with counter solutions by the corrupt 

[elgordo38]

11 hours ago, simon43 said:

Although clearly not on the same scale as the problems that Colin Vard had, I was forced out of the 4th little hotel that I built in Phuket by a drug dealer and bent police who supported him.

 

I had a long lease on the land in my sole name, but that meant nothing 'on the ground'.  I still legally had the right to stay on the land that I leased, but with threats against my life, I choose to chuck it all in and relocate to Myanmar last year.

 

30 year lease? 50 year lease? 99 year lease?  It means absolutely nothing when the police are corrupt and foreigners are treated as second-class (third-class?) citizens.

There you have it best to forget the idea. If aliens do come from Mars let it be for them but its not for this alien. 

[ukrules]

21 hours ago, oldlakey said:

I dont much care for the sound of that, I call for a second opinion

There's always Bitcoin, the money that dies with you unless you write down your passwords / private keys.

[Anthony Loh]

10 hours ago, captspectre said:

I thought that a foreigner buying a condo DID already have a fifty year lease!  so what's  new?

I bought my condo 20 years ago in Bangkok before I got married with my Thai wife and I'm the one who fully owned this unit forever until the day when I pass away, it will go to my Thai family.

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

And of course, not wanting to be rude, but that statement is a nonsense. If you live in Thailand you accept it because it is a way of life and has been since time immemorial here.

 

Nothing that I can do with my attitude can prevent corruption here – – in any way, shape or form. And there are laws governing corruption in just about all walks of life, but they don't work because this place is corrupt from the top down.

 

No, it isn't nonsense, you should not accept it regardless of how normal it has become, it is holding the country back and so are you if you partake.  And yes, there is something you can do, you can refuse the opportunity to bribe and instead pay the real fine if you are stopped by the police, you can refuse to pay officials who want money to speed things up and accept that it will take longer, you can refuse to partake in any corruption, like everyone should be doing, every little helps.

 

There are laws, but they are not effective, the laws and the sentencing guidelines need to be changed, we need ombudsmen for every government department, full audits of all government institutions as a matter of course, the introduction of public tendering for government contracts, and we need to be able to report people, at the moment we simply have to accept that it is a very dangerous game to report an official, that law above all others needs to change.

[Destiny1990]

12 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

That would be easily corrupted, it only takes some money to produce a fake power of attorney, happens all the time.  The most effective way will be to tackle corruption as a whole rather than trying to find solutions to each and every little issue as they will just be met with counter solutions by the corrupt 

Coming all up in person means no Poa allowed get it?Well u can try ask the crooked lawyer crooked loanshark and crooked fake tenant to stop with their scheme since u not think adjusting the laws will work.