Trump tastes failure as U.S. House healthcare bill collapses

[funandsuninbangkok]

Obamacare will blowup within 18 months and it will be Democrats fault. 60 Republican senators in 2018. Great!

[JCauto]

On 3/25/2017 at 3:27 AM, impulse said:

 

And Trump knows that system so well, I'm hoping he becomes the poacher turned gamekeeper once he gets his footing to reform it- or at least start the reforms.  

 

It's early enough in the game that I'm still hoping his ego won't allow him to go down in the books as just another knob who threw the American people under the bus (again).

 

Early indicators aren't favorable, but I live in hope...

Well, early indicators are that his MO is to find people who are fundamentally opposed to the mission of whatever the agency is and then put them in charge with a team of like-minded saboteurs. To imagine that he would take one of the fundamentals of his business (suing other people) and make that no longer viable is well beyond fantasy. He has only one interest, that's himself, and anything that furthers that interest is the only thing he wants. Tort reform is the opposite of that.

[pegman]

On March 25, 2017 at 8:37 AM, watgate said:

Although I am a Trump supporter I am glad this healthcare scheme got shot down. My understanding is that Trump was trying to pass medical insurance costs down to the individual states and if this bill had succeeded, many states would have been left with gaping holes in their budgets. This would have necessitated States raising taxes on their constituency. I would like to see finally, although it is highly unlikely, for insurance companies to have to dip into their sizeable till to cover associated costs of medical insurance and take on more risk. Also, it would be nice but  very doubtful that Trump could get the pharmaceutical companies and the medical establishment to rein in their costs. I guess I can dream but greed seems to be the predominant factor at play here.

Expansion of Medicare incrementally is the answer friend. Bernie is calling for a 55+ provision. 

[pegman]

12 hours ago, thaihome said:

Though I'm very happy the GOP/trumpcare bill was shot down, it's very important that people understand the reason is not because it would have deprived millions of insurance or that it was a massive tax cut for the highest earners. It was withdrawn because a group of GOP congressmen thought is too liberal and did not fit with their agenda of small government regardless of its impact on the US population. 

 

This is were we are today, stuck with 2 branches of government controlled by a party with serious ideology issues within itself. It is likely that Trump and the GOP moderates (which does not include Ryan) are going to have to have support from  Democratic moderates in order to get anything done. This is going to cause the Tea Party (and Fox news,  etc) fits as any cooperation with democrats is considered treason. 

 

This is very likely the beginnings of the breakdown in the current (and very shortlived) 6th party political system and hopefully an alignment between moderates of both parties to effect a rational, anti-populist coalition that can bring some sanity to US politics.

 

I say this with very little belief it will come about. The Conservative entertainment media is way too profitable to stand idly by and let rational thought, interaction and comprise  between political factions become the norm again.

 

TH  

Personally I think the big winner in influence are Trump's daughter and son in law. It seems very plausible that their warnings went ignored so they fled town. It is hard to believe that they agreed to huge tax breaks to the affluent and 24m without coverage. Ryan was given sufficient rope to hang himself and the far right of the Republican Congressional  delegation which he did in spectacular fashion. Trump will be hunkering down with those he trusts most, family. 

[WaywardWind]

On 3/25/2017 at 7:34 PM, Basil B said:

I suppose what hurts and the real reason behind Trump wanting to do a way with it, is it is called Obama Care.

 

In the US where the national sport is "Sue Your Doctor" of course it is going to cost an arm and a leg for medical care.

Medical error has recently been rated as the 3rd largest cause of death in the USA, only exceeded by heart disease and cancer.

 

Medical malpractice litigation is not a "sport" by any means.

 

In most states, access to the court room in malpractice cases is rigorously screened, and nuisance suits and those without merit are not allowed to proceed.

[mogandave]

I think this is great news. I'm for repeal without replace.

If I wanted government healthcare I would vote for it.


Live, love, laugh

[mogandave]

Medical error has recently been rated as the 3rd largest cause of death in the USA...

Indeed.

[Traveler19491]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

I think this is great news. I'm for repeal without replace.

If I wanted government healthcare I would vote for it.


Live, love, laugh

 

So repealing legislation that has helped 20 million uninsured people finally have access to at least minimal health care without providing an alternative is, in your opinion, a good thing. Your humanitarian side is dazzling, simply dazzling. For your sake, I hope that neither you nor anyone you care for is ever one of the ones in desperate need of medical care without the ability to pay for it.

[jerojero]

agree with rand paul that a replacement should not be obamacare light.
 
although not perfect, canada provides healthcare for its citizens and apparently does it using taxes already paid and not charging separately to buy insurance.
 
why cant usa given one of the biggest economies in the world not do what canada has done?

Because that would be socialism and half of the US citizens and/or politicians think that's a sin. Fend for yourself in good times or bad is the Republican way. And to hell with wealth distribution via taxes and social programs like universal healthcare.

[attrayant]

13 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Obamacare will blowup within 18 months and it will be Democrats fault. 60 Republican senators in 2018. Great!

Your attempt at blame-shifting is truly embarrassing.  Republicans control the legislature and the executive - that means they run the entire government.  If the ACA is going to be such a disastrous failure, why didn't they do anything about it?  They had the chance to do something and failed - they opted to keep the ACA in place. That means it's their responsibility to take care of it.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by attrayant
typo

[kowpot]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

You don't have to take their word,

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/3/19.full.html

 

And where exactly did you learn what the AARP was all about?

Did you miss the part where I used to be a member???

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, kowpot said:

Did you miss the part where I used to be a member???

And how exactly did the AARP fail to live up to your expectations? Or what did they do that was so descreditable?

[kowpot]

31 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And how exactly did the AARP fail to live up to your expectations? Or what did they do that was so descreditable?

 That I think that is my own personal business,  I do still have the life insurance policies though. But, they are not the underwriters.

 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, kowpot said:

 That I think that is my own personal business,  I do still have the life insurance policies though. But, they are not the underwriters.

 

Well, if it's personal to you, then it has nothing to do with the public issues they are addressing. And how personal can something be in a forum where virtually everyone is anonymous?

[mogandave]

So repealing legislation that has helped 20 million uninsured people finally have access to at least minimal health care without providing an alternative is, in your opinion, a good thing. Your humanitarian side is dazzling, simply dazzling. For your sake, I hope that neither you nor anyone you care for is ever one of the ones in desperate need of medical care without the ability to pay for it.

Yes, but why the personal attack?

[attrayant]

27 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Yes, but why the personal attack?

 

 

 

Because being okay with 20+ million people losing access to healthcare (and then laughing about it) is nothing short of monstrous.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

Because being okay with 20+ million people losing access to healthcare (and then laughing about it) is nothing short of monstrous.

Yes, and don't forget the totally EVIL thing that trump has threatened to do now in the wake of his humiliating trumpcare defeat, and we all know how much his bigly ego hates being humiliated. Even though the republicans control the entire government, and ACA is the law of the land, and ACA working OK as long as it's the law of the land is a life and death matter for millions of Americans, he has threatened to watch it go into a death spiral. That is also MURDEROUS. Those in the know also know that there are things the republicans can do to actively SABOTAGE the functioning of ACA (they have done so many times in the past, most spectacularly in right wing controlled states refusing to join expanded Medicaid). So we already know trump is committed to the evil action of doing nothing to help ACA function better, but the thing to watch is he going to go full on evil and actively continue to SABOTAGE it. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

 
Because being okay with 20+ million people losing access to healthcare (and then laughing about it) is nothing short of monstrous.

Those people had health care before the ACA, the idea that people were dying in the street for lack health insurance is ridiculous.

I'm sure the press will dig up up few to parade around on TV, but they could do that now.

Poor people qualified for Medicaid before the ACA, the only difference is that my insurance was ruined in the process and I had to watch my President lie to me about it.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Those people had health care before the ACA, the idea that people were dying in the street for lack health insurance is ridiculous.

I'm sure the press will dig up up few to parade around on TV, but they could do that now.

Poor people qualified for Medicaid before the ACA, the only difference is that my insurance was ruined in the process and I had to watch my President lie to me about it.
 

 

The pre-ACA status quo was much worse for poor people and people with preexisting conditions than after ACA. Yes people could go to emergency rooms to get stabilized (very expensive and very inefficient and clogging them irrationally) but that is hardly any kind of civilized health CARE system which properly should emphasize prevention and continuing care (outside emergency rooms) for chronic conditions.  

Medicaid hardly covered all poor people. Don't push that lie. Expanded Medicaid did indeed expand that (an ACA thing) but the right wing controlled states BLOCKED it. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

The pre-ACA status quo was much worse for poor people and people with preexisting conditions than after ACA. Yes people could go to emergency rooms to get stabilized (very expensive and very inefficient and clogging them irrationally) but that is hardly any kind of civilized health CARE system which properly should emphasize prevention and continuing care (outside emergency rooms) for chronic conditions.  
Medicaid hardly covered all poor people. Don't push that lie. Expanded Medicaid did indeed expand that (an ACA thing) but the right wing controlled states BLOCKED it. 

With all do respect, your opinion means nothing to me.

I doubt very much you know what you are talking about.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

With all do respect, your opinion means nothing to me.

I doubt very much you know what you are talking about.

 

Strong argument.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

Strong argument.

I'm not trying to make an argument, I'm just stating my opinion.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I'm not trying to make an argument, I'm just stating my opinion.

 

An "opinion" that Medicaid provides health cover for all poor Americans (before or after ACA but much worse before) is based on fake facts. You can have your own opinions, but if you are going to present your own facts that are clearly totally wrong, expect pushback. 

 

Compared to your fake fact agenda, I actually appreciate the HONESTY of the extremist "freedom caucus" that doesn't want government to be involved in health care at all, and knows full well many people will be dead because of that. Horrific and evil, but at least HONEST. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

An "opinion" that Medicaid provides health cover for all poor Americans (before or after ACA but much worse before) is based on fake facts. You can have your own opinions, but if you are going to present your own facts that are clearly totally wrong, expect pushback. 
 
Compared to your fake fact agenda, I actually appreciate the HONESTY of the extremist "freedom caucus" that doesn't want government to be involved in health care at all, and knows full well many people will be dead because of that. Horrific and evil, but at least HONEST. 

I never said it covered "all" the poor, you just made that up.

You want socialized medicine, I don't. You think it will help more than it hurts, and I think it will hurt more than it helps. Nothing to argue.

I did not have insurance until I was 40, never had any trouble getting care.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Those people had health care before the ACA, the idea that people were dying in the street for lack health insurance is ridiculous.

I'm sure the press will dig up up few to parade around on TV, but they could do that now.

Poor people qualified for Medicaid before the ACA, the only difference is that my insurance was ruined in the process and I had to watch my President lie to me about it.
 

 

I guess if you want to remain willfully ignorant there's nothing anyone can do about it. Tell me, before Obamacare, what was the recourse of someone with a pre-existing condition who wasn't covered by Medicaid? 

[ilostmypassword]

26 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I never said it covered "all" the poor, you just made that up.

You want socialized medicine, I don't. You think it will help more than it hurts, and I think it will hurt more than it helps. Nothing to argue.

I did not have insurance until I was 40, never had any trouble getting care.

 

Russian roulette's a great game too.  Most of time, when the trigger is pulled, nothing happens.

But when that bullet is cancer, or lupus, or a host of other life threatening ailments, then you've got problems.

In the OECD, the honor of being the only nation where the leading cause of personal bankruptcy is medical cost belongs to the USA. A major cause of homelessness too.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[tuktuktuk]

Why does everyone think this is over?  We'll struggle with healthcare and insurance until we finally realize that the modern standard of care is unaffordable.  You can't run every headache, stomach ache, sprained ankle and heavy bruise through a multi-million dollar MRI or CT Scan machine that has to be replaced every three to five years to keep up with the competition.  I've seen a car accident with a simple fracture of the lower arm.  The decision was to correct it surgically.  Cost (at least the initial one that started the negotiation) was just over $150,000.  That doesn't include the cost of weeks or months of physical therapy and the real possibility of complications like infection when bones are exposed during surgery.  When I was a boy that would have been handled with a quick trip to see Dr. Horace where he would set it, put it in a cast and see you six weeks later.  The treatment probably wasn't quite as effective or painless as today, but it barely cost a thing. Lots of uninsured people today have $50k debts for things just like this that could have been handled differently.  Managed care and malpractice insurance account for some of this, but more than anything we're just introducing extremely high cost modern technology that isn't always warranted. Dental implants cost as much as $10k each.  People are actually paying for those.

[Traveler19491]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

 

Yes, but why the personal attack?
 

 

 

 

I dunno...maybe because you're the person who espoused such a reprehensible, self-centered, inhumane position.

[Gulfsailor]

24 minutes ago, tuktuktuk said:

Why does everyone think this is over?  We'll struggle with healthcare and insurance until we finally realize that the modern standard of care is unaffordable.  You can't run every headache, stomach ache, sprained ankle and heavy bruise through a multi-million dollar MRI or CT Scan machine that has to be replaced every three to five years to keep up with the competition.  I've seen a car accident with a simple fracture of the lower arm.  The decision was to correct it surgically.  Cost (at least the initial one that started the negotiation) was just over $150,000.  That doesn't include the cost of weeks or months of physical therapy and the real possibility of complications like infection when bones are exposed during surgery.  When I was a boy that would have been handled with a quick trip to see Dr. Horace where he would set it, put it in a cast and see you six weeks later.  The treatment probably wasn't quite as effective or painless as today, but it barely cost a thing. Lots of uninsured people today have $50k debts for things just like this that could have been handled differently.  Managed care and malpractice insurance account for some of this, but more than anything we're just introducing extremely high cost modern technology that isn't always warranted. Dental implants cost as much as $10k each.  People are actually paying for those.

It's not the modern standard of care that is unaffordable. It's only the care in the US that is so crazy expensive. Identical procedures or medications in other developed countries cost a fraction of those in the US. The main reason; hospital and insurance monopolies and their influence on politics. http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/072116/us-healthcare-costs-compared-other-countries.asp

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.