Schengen Visa from UK for Thai National

[Simon555]

We're off to the UK for a month in 10 days time. We've just picked up a UK tourist visa for my (Thai) wife. We're planning a stop in Italy on the way back to Thailand.

 

It doesn't look like there is time to pick up a Schengen Visa from Thailand, even with their express processing. Will we be able to get her one in the UK? Do we just turn up to the Italian Embassy in the UK with the paperwork?

 

Many thanks for your replies.

[Moonlover]

I wouldn't think that you will have a problem with this Simon, but why don't you ask them directly?

 

visit: http://italy.embassyhomepage.com/

 

Then click on Visa info, followed by: 'click here to get visa information' 

 

Good luck and safe journey.

 

 

[rasg]

Yes you can but all the Embassies seem to have slightly different rules and requirements. You need to go to the Italian Embassy website to find out their list of requirements. Most of the Embassies use VFS or a company like it to outsource Schengen visas although it's possible to bypass them and go directly.

 

http://www.amblondra.esteri.it/ambasciata_londra/en/informazioni_e_servizi/visti/

[Donutz]

You should be able to get her a free 'Italian' Schengen visa ASAP from within the UK or anywhere else where the Italians have a consulat. Some embassies wrongfully insist that the Thai or other non EU national must have a residence status in the UK to apply there. But that is nonsense incase of a family relation as per EU freedom of movement directive 2004/38. 

 

More info in the sticky topic on Schengen or:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

Edited April 18, 2017 by Donutz

[Simon555]

Thanks for the replies, especially Donutz. This is what I was afraid of, but I think you've put my mind at rest. We paid extra 8,500 Baht to get the UK visa quickly so we had time for the Schengen visa, but then Songkran messed it up for us. 

 

My missus is the type to burst into tears whenever a border guard/official starts getting heavy, so this is a great help.

 

Many thanks all,

 

Simon

[Simon555]

Disaster! Went to VFS in Manchester and my wife was refused a Schengen visa because she was a tourist, type C. 

 

We'll try getting in touch with the Italian embassy in London tomorrow.

[theoldgit]

5 hours ago, Simon555 said:

Disaster! Went to VFS in Manchester and my wife was refused a Schengen visa because she was a tourist, type C. 

 

When you say your wife was refused a visa, I assume that you mean that the VFS staff refused to accept your wife's application?

VFS play no part in the actual visa decision making process.
 

[Donutz]

VFS is just a paperpushers who may only advice people but has no authority to decide over an application. They should have forwarded it to the Italians if you insisted. 

 

It's possible that the VFS monkeys and/or the Italians may think you cannot apply from the UK on a UK tourist visa. That is true for ordinary applicants but not for family members of EEA nations as defined in Directive 2004/38 on freedom of movement. Those applicants must be able to apply at any consulate in the world that is capable of dealing with visa requests.

 

See these topics for more info:

- https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/973922-can-my-thai-wife-apply-for-schengen-visa-in-the-uk/

 

- https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/961389-schengen-visa/?page=2

Edited May 9, 2017 by Donutz

[Simon555]

Many thanks for your advice old git/donutz.

 

I'm having trouble contacting them by telephone. I'll read through the links and pursue!

[Simon555]

Update: NO VISA

 

No visa company is able to take this on. The last one requested a residence permit with at least 90 days on it and return tickets to the UK from Italy (!)

 

The consulate is making no efforts to reply.

 

Just to reiterate. We want to travel to Italy from the UK on our way back to Thailand. 

 

Our £800 worth of flights will be lost if this cannot be resolved.

 

[rasg]

Two suggestions. Change your flight so it doesn’t take in Italy. Your GF can travel to Turkey without a visa, for example. It's dangerous game to play booking flights without having a the visa beforehand.

 

The other is to pick up the phone to the Italian Embassy and explain the situation and see if they are willing to help. It can’t do any harm.

[7by7]

If no luck from the Italian embassy, you could try taking the problem to SOLVIT

[Simon555]

Quote

It's dangerous game to play booking flights without having a the visa beforehand.

You can only apply once you have your flights booked.

 

The Italian Consulate General in London just told us the Schengen Visa is impossible because she is in the UK on a tourist visa, type C.

 

[rasg]

41 minutes ago, Simon555 said:

You can only apply once you have your flights booked.

 

The Italian Consulate General in London just told us the Schengen Visa is impossible because she is in the UK on a tourist visa, type C.

That is the Italian Embassy oversteppng the mark and demanding something that should not be needed. A few weeks ago at the Danish Embassy  when my wife applied for a Schengen visa for Iceland, I just did a printout of the flight booking that we wanted to make. With some airlines you can also per book without having to pay money.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Simon555 said:

You can only apply once you have your flights booked

 Not if you are a applying under the directive because you are a qualifying family member of an EEA national and travelling with or to join them. All you need to provide is evidence that you are, indeed, a qualifying member of an EEA national; such as marriage certificate, with a certified translation into an EU language if necessary, and a certified copy of the EEA nationals passport to show that they are an EEA national.

 

If an embassy or consulate asks for anything else, they are breaking the rules.

 

Even those who are not family members of EEA nationals and so are not covered by the directive should not pay for flights and accommodation until they have the visa. As Donutz says in his pinned topic

Quote

Concerning booking your flight etc.: it is adviced that you don't pay for your flight (or hotel etc.) untill the visa has been issued. It's better to get a booking or option for a flight. Some companies offer this service free of charge or at a small cost. Usually the reservation will expire if you do not confirm the flight in time. This shouldn't be a problem, aslong as the reservation/option is still valid at the day that you hand in the application. You may then confirm the booking with the company when youg et a visa or try and find a cheaper/other ticket. You are not obligated to have your flight etc. all payed for! Might be a costly experience incase the visa is denied!

 

1 hour ago, Simon555 said:

The Italian Consulate General in London just told us the Schengen Visa is impossible because she is in the UK on a tourist visa, type C.

Then as I said before

 

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

If no luck from the Italian embassy, you could try taking the problem to SOLVIT

 

As a last resort, you could try simply turning up at Italian immigration. From Travel documents for non-EU family members

Quote

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey. (i.e. have a visa)

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means (e.g. your marriage certificate with a certified translation if not in an EU language) that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

The main problem here being that you may not get as far as Italian immigration because your airline may be unaware of this and so not allow her to board the flight without a visa!

[Donutz]

Indeed 7by7. 

 

Simon could contact Solvit though you may be out of luck if an employee answers that does not realize that:

 

 A) Freedom of Movement is Community law and thus that the Schengen directive does not apply (article 134), and  

B.)  that the Freedom of Movement directive clearly makes no other demands except for having to make evident 1) valid family relation 2) proof of ID of the EEA national and nn-EEA national 3) that they will travel together or join eachother in the EU/EEA, and therefor that any person covered by the freedom of movement directive should be able to apply from any relevant embassy or even get a visa at the border. So I'd bring those point up when contacting Solvit or EU Home Affairs so that they don't copy and paste  "the Schengen code on visa says you need to apply from the country where the foreigner has long term residency"  as a negative response to your query.

 

Or Simon could contact an immigration lawyer with knowledge of EU law to write a letter pointing out that the Italians should facilitate his wife.

 

I do hope that the Italians do not ask for a flight booking! They should only asked for a reservation and most embassies do point out that this reservation can be unpaid and only t finalize the booking (pay the tickets) when the visa is approved.  But that only conerns regular applicants, as you say those covered by freedom of movement cannot be asked to provide any travel documentation. Such documentation can assist though in making clear that the EEA and non EEA national are traveling together. 

 

Edit: Solvit can be reached via the 'need help'  button at the bottom of the 'travel documents for non EU family members' page. 

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/

 

Sucks to hear that the Italians are making such a mess, sorry to hear that Simon.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Donutz

[NanLaew]

11 hours ago, rasg said:

That is the Italian Embassy oversteppng the mark and demanding something that should not be needed. A few weeks ago at the Danish Embassy  when my wife applied for a Schengen visa for Iceland, I just did a printout of the flight booking that we wanted to make. With some airlines you can also per book without having to pay money.

Is your Thai wife in the UK on a Type C visitor visa?

[NanLaew]

At the end of the day, the instructions issued by Schengen member states for a non-EU visitor specifically states that the applicant should apply at the embassy or consulate of the Schengen country they plan on visiting first, in the country of their stated domicile. For a Thai-born and domiciled person, this is Bangkok.

 

By the same token, the wording of the The Directive on Free Movement (EC/2004/38) only instructs the member state to provide every facility to an applicant; a very loose and non-specific term. Unfortunately, it does not specifically state that the non-EU partner and/or family member can avail the services of a Schengen member embassy and/or consulate in the EU to obtain a visa if already in the EU. Any inference that "every facility" means "any Schengen member embassy and/or consulate in the EU" resides solely in the mind of the presumptive applicant.

 

Lets face it, the EU is a huge bureaucracy and the Freedom of Movement statutes were primarily drafted to embrace EU nationals migrating within the EU.

[7by7]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Is your Thai wife in the UK on a Type C visitor visa?

"Thai wife?" How many wives of various nationalities do you think the OP has?

 

To answer your question:

20 hours ago, Simon555 said:

The Italian Consulate General in London just told us the Schengen Visa is impossible because she is in the UK on a tourist visa, type C.

 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

At the end of the day, the instructions issued by Schengen member states for a non-EU visitor specifically states that the applicant should apply at the embassy or consulate of the Schengen country they plan on visiting first, in the country of their stated domicile. For a Thai-born and domiciled person, this is Bangkok.

 

Para 1 of Article 6 of the visa code does, indeed, say

Quote

1.   An application shall be examined and decided on by the consulate of the competent Member State in whose jurisdiction the applicant legally resides.

But this is not cast in stone. Para 2 of Article 6 says

Quote

2.   A consulate of the competent Member State shall examine and decide on an application lodged by a third-country national legally present but not residing in its jurisdiction, if the applicant has provided justification for lodging the application at that consulate.

Furthermore, Article 7 says

Quote

Competence to issue visas to third-country nationals legally present within the territory of a Member State

Third-country nationals who are legally present in the territory of a Member State and who are required to hold a visa to enter the territory of one or more other Member States shall apply for a visa at the consulate of the Member State that is competent in accordance with Article 5(1) or (2).

 

So, even those who are not family members of an EEA national and so are not covered by the FoM directive can still apply in countries where they are not a resident provided that they are legally present, which a holder of a valid UK visit visa present in the UK is, and

• if the country concerned is not a member state they have a valid reason for so doing, or
• the country where they are applying is a member state; which at the moment the UK is.

As said by Donutz above, and is confirmed in part III of the Schengen visa handbook, the FoM directive takes precedence over the Schengen visa code.

 

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

By the same token, the wording of the The Directive on Free Movement (EC/2004/38) only instructs the member state to provide every facility to an applicant; a very loose and non-specific term. Unfortunately, it does not specifically state that the non-EU partner and/or family member can avail the services of a Schengen member embassy and/or consulate in the EU to obtain a visa if already in the EU. Any inference that "every facility" means "any Schengen member embassy and/or consulate in the EU" resides solely in the mind of the presumptive applicant

You are correct that the FoM directive does not specifically state that the family member of an EEA national can apply for a Schengen visa anywhere; in fact it makes no mention of where they can or cannot apply at all!

 

"Every facility" is neither inferred nor implied in the directive; it is specifically stated in Article 5, para 2

Quote

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas.  Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

 

As already shown, 'every facility' in the FoM directive means, among other things, that the family member of an EEA national travelling with or to join their EEA national family member can obtain any necessary visa at the border; and this is confirmed in Article 5 para 4

Quote

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

. If this is possible, why would obtaining one from an embassy in a third country not be?

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

"Thai wife?" How many wives of various nationalities do you think the OP has?

 

I was querying rasg who claimed that his wife (Thai?) was able to get a Schengen visa from the Danish Embassy (in London?) so she could visit Iceland.

 

Since the OP (who is simon555 and NOT rasg) mentioned that his Thai wife has been denied applying for a Schengen visa both at VFS (in Manchester) and the Italian Embassy (in London), I was wondering what the UK visa status and nationality of rasg's spouse is.

 

I think you'll agree that it helps to be accurate, specific and precise when stating comparative experiences to make sure we are actually comparing apples with apples.

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

To answer your question:

The OP and I already know that the Italian Embassy and other Schengen member embassies in the UK and elsewhere won't deviate from the rules. I never questioned that. I do question the repeated frustrated efforts of EU nationals to try and get Schengen visas for Thai partners when already in Europe.

[NanLaew]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Para 1 of Article 6 of the visa code does, indeed, say

But this is not cast in stone. Para 2 of Article 6 says

Furthermore, Article 7 says

 

So, even those who are not family members of an EEA national and so are not covered by the FoM directive can still apply in countries where they are not a resident provided that they are legally present, which a holder of a valid UK visit visa present in the UK is, and

• if the country concerned is not a member state they have a valid reason for so doing, or
• the country where they are applying is a member state; which at the moment the UK is.

As said by Donutz above, and is confirmed in part III of the Schengen visa handbook, the FoM directive takes precedence over the Schengen visa code.

 

You are correct that the FoM directive does not specifically state that the family member of an EEA national can apply for a Schengen visa anywhere; in fact it makes no mention of where they can or cannot apply at all!

 

"Every facility" is neither inferred nor implied in the directive; it is specifically stated in Article 5, para 2

 

As already shown, 'every facility' in the FoM directive means, among other things, that the family member of an EEA national travelling with or to join their EEA national family member can obtain any necessary visa at the border; and this is confirmed in Article 5 para 4

. If this is possible, why would obtaining one from an embassy in a third country not be?

The comprehensive explanation and references you have given is very much appreciated but beyond instances where insufficient time was available to obtain the Schengen visa in Bangkok prior to departing for a non-Schengen country, why do some persist in attempting add-on itineraries and wasting vacation time challenging the basic rules when despite all the wording indicating that it can be done, there is insufficient evidence that it can consistently lead to the granting of a visa?

[7by7]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

The comprehensive explanation and references you have given is very much appreciated but beyond instances where insufficient time was available to obtain the Schengen visa in Bangkok prior to departing for a non-Schengen country, why do some persist in attempting add-on itineraries and wasting vacation time challenging the basic rules when despite all the wording indicating that it can be done, there is insufficient evidence that it can consistently lead to the granting of a visa?

 

They are not challenging the basic rules at all.

 

As Article 7 of the Schengen visa code clearly states, anyone, family member of an EEA national or not, can apply for a Schengen visa in any other member state as long as they are in that state legally; they do not have to be a resident there.

 

Anyone who takes the time to check the code or EU issued guidance will discover that, and so believe that they will be able to apply for their Schengen visa in the UK whilst here as a visitor, because the code says that they can.

 

I agree that it is best to organise everything in advance. My step son and his wife are visiting us in the UK later this year, and while here intend to spend a couple of nights in Paris. They will be applying to the French embassy in Bangkok for their Schengen visas as soon as they have their UK ones. Doing this saves wasting a day, at least, out of their holiday at the French embassy in Kensington.

 

But there are reasons why some may not be able to do this; as you say, time constraints being one of them. Another being a spur of the moment decision to visit another country from the UK; particularly if the visitor is in the UK for several months.

 

There is no legal reason why it is not possible for a Thai, or any one else, to apply for a Schengen visa whilst in the UK as a visitor. The Schengen visa code allows it and if they are the family member of an EEA national the FoM directive means they should be offered every facility to obtain any necessary visa wherever in the world they are.

 

Those embassies which do not comply with this are breaking the rules and, in the case of family members, the law; pure and simple.

 

IMHO, those who suffer because of this must make a complaint to SOLVIT. It may not help in time for their trip, but the more people complain, the more likely it is that the offending embassies will be made to follow not just the visa code, but also EU law.

 

But if no one complains, nothing will be done.

 

Of course, as far as the UK, British citizens and their non EEA national family members are concerned everything I've posted is dependent upon the UK's membership of the EU: we can only speculate what the position post Brexit will be.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by 7by7

[Donutz]

"The OP and I already know that the Italian Embassy and other Schengen member embassies in the UK and elsewhere won't deviate from the rules. I never questioned that. I do question the repeated frustrated efforts of EU nationals to try and get Schengen visas for Thai partners when already in Europe."

 

The Italians are deviating from the EU rules, both the Schengen Code on Visa by declining any people on a short stay visa to apply for a type C Schengen visa without taking emergencies, special cases etc into account. And worse, thst are in violation of Directive 2004/38 freedom of movement. 

 

Embassies like the Dutch do a much more proper job. There is no excuse that the Italians do not. I repeat: complain to Solvit, EU home affairs and try an immigration lawyer that is not only familiar with UK but also EU visa/migration laws to write the embassy a letter.

 

Go to run.

[teatree]

When applying for an EU visa I strongly recommend going to a northern EU country (Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc) rather than a southern country (Italy, Spain).  The former are likely to be helpful and accommodating and above all fair minded, whereas the latter are more likely to be petty and obstructive.

Edited May 19, 2017 by teatree

[NanLaew]

12 hours ago, Donutz said:

I repeat: complain to Solvit, EU home affairs and try an immigration lawyer that is not only familiar with UK but also EU visa/migration laws to write the embassy a letter.

But make sure one enjoy one's vacation time.... whatever's left of it.

 

31 minutes ago, teatree said:

When applying for an EU visa I strongly recommend going to a northern EU country (Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc) rather than a southern country (Italy, Spain).  The former are likely to be helpful and accommodating and above all fair minded, whereas the latter are more likely to be petty and obstructive.

Are you talking about the standard procedure of applying for the Schengen visa in Bangkok pre- departure?

 

I do recall a much earlier thread where someone was getting stymied by (I think) a Spanish Embassy in Europe about the need for a translation of a Thai wedding certificate. This may have been with regard to some other form of inter-EU migration with a Thai spouse.

[7by7]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I do recall a much earlier thread where someone was getting stymied by (I think) a Spanish Embassy in Europe about the need for a translation of a Thai wedding certificate. This may have been with regard to some other form of inter-EU migration with a Thai spouse.

 

All EEA embassies, wherever they are, will want certified translations of wedding certificates, and/or any other supporting documents, which are not in an EEA language. In the case of Thailand, many also want the translations certified as correct by the Thai MFA.

 

What the Spanish in Bangkok were insisting upon from spouses of British citizens was a certificate that their marriage was legally recognised in the UK. Such a document does not exist, and is superfluous anyway as far as the issuing of a Schengen visa, residence card or any other visa or leave to remain under the FoM directive is concerned. Whether or not the UK recognises a Thai marriage is irrelevant, what matters is whether or not the country one is applying to, in that case Spain, does.

 

The member concerned was advised to make an official complaint to SOLVIT; whether he did or not, and if so what the result was, he never said.

[NanLaew]

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

All EEA embassies, wherever they are, will want certified translations of wedding certificates, and/or any other supporting documents, which are not in an EEA language. In the case of Thailand, many also want the translations certified as correct by the Thai MFA.

 

What the Spanish in Bangkok were insisting upon from spouses of British citizens was a certificate that their marriage was legally recognised in the UK. Such a document does not exist, and is superfluous anyway as far as the issuing of a Schengen visa, residence card or any other visa or leave to remain under the FoM directive is concerned. Whether or not the UK recognises a Thai marriage is irrelevant, what matters is whether or not the country one is applying to, in that case Spain, does.

 

The member concerned was advised to make an official complaint to SOLVIT; whether he did or not, and if so what the result was, he never said.

Thanks for refreshing my memory; yes, a bureaucrat requesting documentation that neither exists or is needed. It is pretty challenging out there and over the next 2-3 year things may be resolved. But then there will finally be BREXIT and all bets are off again.

[Simon555]

SOLVIT are on the case. Here is just part of their response:

 

This means your spouse should be able to apply for a Schengen visa in the UK, despite the fact that she does not hold a residence card at present.    It means that the Italian authorities cannot deny you the right to travel with your husband to Italy. The Italian embassy should issue your spouse with a Schengen visa for Italy. It also means that the Italian authorities cannot require your spouse to return home to her country of origin in order to submit an application to obtain a visa to travel with you to Italy. Your spouse must be allowed to apply for a visa for Italy in the UK since we consider that to require her to return to her country of origin would constitute an undue obstacle to your right of free movement and the right to enjoy the respect of your family life.