Sanders defends Trump's praise of Australian healthcare system

[pegman]

On May 6, 2017 at 10:13 PM, oilinki said:

Bernie is a bit European. Most well-off western countries have general health care. I guess most of the western countries are indeed socialist countries, which is a good thing.

He lives 45 miles from the Canada. That may be more of an influence.

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, pegman said:

He lives 45 miles from the Canada. That may be more of an influence.

I don't agree.

I think European is closer to the truth.

Relating to his family background (2nd/3rd generation from his parents) and more specifically in the American Ashkenazi Jewish cultural/political tradition. 

Not suggesting Sanders get this from religiosity. He is not religious, he is secular. More about his cultural/political background. 

 

 

www.reformjudaism.org/jewish-views-health-care

Quote

Providing health care is not just an obligation for the patient and the doctor, but for society as well. For this reason, the revered Jewish scholar Maimonides listed health care first on his list of the 10 most important communal services that a city must offer its residents (Mishneh Torah, Hilchot De'ot IV: 23). Almost all self-governing Jewish communities throughout history set up systems to ensure that all their citizens had access to health care. Doctors were required to reduce their rates for poor patients, and when that was not sufficient, communal subsidies were established

.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some states already have no insurance companies. More will follow to be sure.

 

That's a good first step. Universal healthcare will never be adopted in the US because it is "the right thing to do". It will only be adopted when insurance companies overreach even more. They will become the architects of their own demise.

[pegman]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't agree.

I think European is closer to the truth.

Relating to his family background (2nd/3rd generation from his parents) and more specifically in the American Ashkenazi Jewish cultural/political tradition. 

Not suggesting Sanders get this from religiosity. He is not religious, he is secular. More about his cultural/political background. 

 

 

www.reformjudaism.org/jewish-views-health-care

.

Well,  it's also very much of the Social  Gospel followed by Baptist Minister Thommy Douglas,, Father of Canadian  single payer healthcare. It should be noted in responce to the argument that this Jewish Tradition may have been the predominant influence on Bernie that the 2 nations with by far the the greatest number of Jews both have private, tiered, insurance systems. Taking the ideology out of it I think Bernie is a very caring, intelligent man and single payer is the rational  answer to the question "What healthcare system is best for the interests of most citizens?". 

[pegman]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That's a good first step. Universal healthcare will never be adopted in the US because it is "the right thing to do". It will only be adopted when insurance companies overreach even more. They will become the architects of their own demise.

You may be on to something. In Canada healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction. Single payer  was brought in piecemeal province by province until the national government brought in national standards in exchange for federal funds. A special state sales tax and a business tax on payroll  could provide the necessary funds for states to operate a single payer system. It would take political guts though. 

[Thakkar]

5 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That's a good first step. Universal healthcare will never be adopted in the US because it is "the right thing to do". It will only be adopted when insurance companies overreach even more. They will become the architects of their own demise.

 

Sad, but true. America, as is often the case, will do all the wrong things before it does the right thing. Meanwhile millions will suffer needlessly in "the richest, greatest nation on earth"

 

[boomerangutang]

On 5/7/2017 at 10:24 PM, sirineou said:

Intelligence and education are two different things. Education provides you the information, intelligence enables you to utilize such information  for useful purposes. The more information you have the closer you can come to the truth, so intelligent with limited information can give an incomplete picture but a sincere  belief in the resulting opinion. It does not help to question  the intelligence, only the information. 

A conventional formal education  will provide you with the necessary information but is not the only source,Intelligent people such as you will seek information in many different venues.   But there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns , a sincere conversation with out value judgments can help expose unknown unknowns for all involved.  My two cents worth in the subject

                              Some people need info to be taught to them by people standing in front of a class.  In the old days, people learned things from doing.   Nowadays people can learn from doing and from the internet.  University is mostly a glorified baby-sitting exercise.  Just one of a bazillion examples:  What about the millions of folks who got business degrees since the 1930's.   How many of them saw the crash of 2008 coming?  Perhaps half a dozen?   All those tens of millions of hours sitting in a classroom learning about business, and essentially none of them saw the advent of the 2nd most important financial crash in American history.

On 5/8/2017 at 10:11 AM, ilostmypassword said:

Yes, supporting a bill that would slash taxes on the wealthy was definitely a courageous move on Trump's part.

He proposed that provision in the bill, primarily to pad his and his buddies'/families' amassing of wealth.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

                              Some people need info to be taught to them by people standing in front of a class.  In the old days, people learned things from doing.   Nowadays people can learn from doing and from the internet.  University is mostly a glorified baby-sitting exercise.  Just one of a bazillion examples:  What about the millions of folks who got business degrees since the 1930's.   How many of them saw the crash of 2008 coming?  Perhaps half a dozen?   All those tens of millions of hours sitting in a classroom learning about business, and essentially none of them saw the advent of the 2nd most important financial crash in American history.

He proposed that provision in the bill, primarily to pad his and his buddies'/families' amassing of wealth.

You clearly have a low opinion of universities and those that attend them.  I concede there are many people who waste their time in university and pick up useless degrees.  However if I need surgery I want it done by someone who has both the degree and experience.  If I were charged with felony tax evasion I would want lawyers and accountants with the education and experience to properly defend me.  If I were a test pilot with the job of taking a new design of aircraft on the first flight, I'd want that airplane designed by people who had spent a lot of time studying aerodynamics in proper universities.  In each of these cases, I would not find it reassuring to learn the people I would rely upon were "self-educated" by spending a lot of time on the internet.

[Thakkar]

33 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You clearly have a low opinion of universities and those that attend them.  I concede there are many people who waste their time in university and pick up useless degrees.  However if I need surgery I want it done by someone who has both the degree and experience.  If I were charged with felony tax evasion I would want lawyers and accountants with the education and experience to properly defend me.  If I were a test pilot with the job of taking a new design of aircraft on the first flight, I'd want that airplane designed by people who had spent a lot of time studying aerodynamics in proper universities.  In each of these cases, I would not find it reassuring to learn the people I would rely upon were "self-educated" by spending a lot of time on the internet.

 

Hey! Don't knock the internet. I learned to speak Japanese by watching Japanese porn on the internet. The Japanese language is very subtle, because most of it sounds like one long orgasm.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 

Hey! Don't knock the internet. I learned to speak Japanese by watching Japanese porn on the internet. The Japanese language is very subtle, because most of it sounds like one long orgasm.

Do you speak pixillated Japanese?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/8/2017 at 5:01 PM, ilostmypassword said:

What evidence do you have that Trump is even interested in standing up to the lobbyists. The large number of Wall Street people he's hired? Maybe it's this?

Top Ethics Officer Challenges Trump Over Secret Waivers for Ex-Lobbyists

 The federal government’s top ethics officer is challenging the Trump administration’s issuance of secret waivers that allow former lobbyists to handle matters they recently worked on, setting up a confrontation between the ethics office and President Trump.

The move by Walter M. Shaub Jr., the director of the Office of Government Ethics, is the latest sign of rising tension between Mr. Shaub and the Trump White House. Mr. Shaub has tried several times to use his limited powers to force Mr. Trump to broadly honor federal ethics rules as well as the ethics order that Mr. Trump himself signed in late January.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/us/politics/top-ethics-officer-challenges-trump-over-secret-waivers-for-ex-lobbyists.html

 

 

While I may want to continue to contribute to this thread I will not respond to off topic whining about Trump. The topic is about Bernie Sanders supporting Trump on the subject, not your opinion of Trump. I'm getting PO about not being able to comment on threads because they get taken over by anti Trumpers.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

You clearly have a low opinion of universities and those that attend them.  I concede there are many people who waste their time in university and pick up useless degrees.  However if I need surgery I want it done by someone who has both the degree and experience.  If I were charged with felony tax evasion I would want lawyers and accountants with the education and experience to properly defend me.  If I were a test pilot with the job of taking a new design of aircraft on the first flight, I'd want that airplane designed by people who had spent a lot of time studying aerodynamics in proper universities.  In each of these cases, I would not find it reassuring to learn the people I would rely upon were "self-educated" by spending a lot of time on the internet.

I don't think he's advocating the closure of universities, just that most degrees are a waste of time. I agree, especially on the move to take nurse training out of hospitals and make it a uni qualification.

Degree in hip hop, anyone?

Just to mention the OP, good on Bernie- he should have been prez.

Edited May 9, 2017 by thaibeachlovers

[heybruce]

On 5/7/2017 at 10:58 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Seriously? You think Trump can do anything on his own? You think he could get politicians paid off by lobbyists to agree to throw out the insurance companies?

He barely got the present law passed- zero chance he could get single payer in.

 

 

35 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I may want to continue to contribute to this thread I will not respond to off topic whining about Trump. The topic is about Bernie Sanders supporting Trump on the subject, not your opinion of Trump. I'm getting PO about not being able to comment on threads because they get taken over by anti Trumpers.

And yet your first post says nothing about Saunders.  Also, if you think Sanders is supporting Trump, you don't understand Sanders very well.  His comment was a sly "Trump is clueless" anti-Trump statement.

 

Regarding your reply to my post:

 

On 5/8/2017 at 3:29 AM, heybruce said:

What law has Trump got passed?  The replacement for Affordable Health Care made it through the House of Representatives, but it is a long way from becoming law.

 

Getting universal health care through congress would be a long fight, and currently no one in Washington seems interested in taking it on.  Most Americans are unaware of simple, easy to understand facts about single payer systems--they cost significantly less and deliver better health care.  http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/#6df1a9dc576f

 

On 5/8/2017 at 5:44 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

You ignored most of what I said and made a distortion of the rest.

So long as members of congress are owned by the lobbyists, no single payer system is going to get in. They'll be lucky to even get cross border insurance passed.

The voters did their best to get someone to stand up to the lobbyists, but one man isn't enough in the American system.

I still think Trump should have waited till Obamacare collapsed under it's sheer unworkability, then he would have had less trouble bringing in something better. Some states already have no insurance companies. More will follow to be sure.

How did I distort your post?  You stated that Trump passed a law, and I asked what law he passed.

 

Members of congress fear voters more than lobbyists, which is why they want to keep the public in the dark about how much they are overpaying for substandard health care.  The more people that understand the situation, the more congress has to respond to it.

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I may want to continue to contribute to this thread I will not respond to off topic whining about Trump. The topic is about Bernie Sanders supporting Trump on the subject, not your opinion of Trump. I'm getting PO about not being able to comment on threads because they get taken over by anti Trumpers.

Did someone hijack your account? Or are you the person who wrote this:

"The voters did their best to get someone to stand up to the lobbyists, but one man isn't enough in the American system."

From the context, I assumed you were writing about Donald Trump.  But maybe you were referring to Mike Pence?

[sirineou]

13 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

  Some people need info to be taught to them by people standing in front of a class.  In the old days, people learned things from doing.   Nowadays people can learn from doing and from the internet.

Though I don't disagree with you on the whole, I do disagree partly.  

You certainly learn by doing and gain valuable experience, but if you only learn by doing, you only learn what you are doing. In that you have a limited perspective . 

In a University environment, you are exposed to disciplines you might not be otherwise exposed to in the normal course of every day life. 

Both ways of learning have value, and the combination of both is desirable.

I don't want to take this Tread of track, I only responded to the exchange with an other poster that questioned each others intelligence. I enjoy your posts , even the ones I might not agree, and also enjoy the posts of the other poster. I try not to make value judgments, every response has value even the ones I disagree with and i learn just as much from both.

As I said , not to take this Thread off track, I said all I have to say on this very interesting subject and would be happy to participate if one was to open a thread with this subject.

I Always look forward to your posts,and when ever I see your Avatar I make sure to read on.

Cheers

 

  

 

[anon4546543]

As an Aussie, I wish the Aussie health system could be improved. It is better than any other system that I know of, but it could be better.

It is a social system, which means that a society needs to look after its citizens. Social as a word has been stolen by left wing near communists. A social society looks after its citizens. What is wrong with that? 

[Rigby40]

Once in a great while that ol' kook Bernie Sanders says something sensible in between his half-baked rants about 'muh 1 percent'.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Rigby40