How to plumb my pool

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Carl has already had the kittens, but he's early enough in the construction to make changes.

if that is the case Carl should forget all bloody skimmers and skim with highest efficiency by overflow.

 

...if that is technically possible (space available for ballast tank).

[sappersrest]

2 hours ago, grollies said:

On second thoughts I'm going to step back from this thread to avoid conflicting advice and giving Carl kittens.

 

@sappersrest is very knowledgeable on pools, go with his advice.

 

Cheers,

 

grolls

Really everyones input is very important , the expert who knows everything is yet to be born, if we can help just one person in some way it is all worth it many thanks for your input you are 99% There its just a matter of putting it all together in one package.

At some time in the future I will try and work out some proforma tha people can fill in and advice cane be given on that basis .This particular forum has some very knowledgable people contributing, and long may it continue once again many thanks for your input. You are absolutely correct in your assumption that the no of inlets is not correct.

Best regards Frank

[Naam]

41 minutes ago, grollies said:

IMHO he's had some bad advice already, not having bottom drains in the bottom of the pool

no bottom drain is but that's Thai pool builders' wisdom.

[carlyai]

I have only pondered a little bit, but I ask the following question: at the end of the day, with my 4 inlets and 2 skimmers, what will be the outcome?

 

PS I do have a bottom drain, in the middle of the short wall about 1 m from the bottom.

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[sappersrest]

If you choose the right pump i.e. not to powerful you will be left with a very low turnover.

let me do the sums and will let you know .

Dont despair at the stage of construction you are at it is not a disaster but you may have to find a core drilling company.

As a side without peeing you off even more pipes through the structure are not a good idea unless they are puddle flanged.

[grollies]

56 minutes ago, Naam said:

no bottom drain is but that's Thai pool builders' wisdom.

Leave the Thais alone, this is farang advice I think. If you read back thru Carl's posts there is a name mentioned.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Thanks all for upsetting me. Maybe fill it in and plant rubber trees. Anyone know anything about rubber trees?

Will consider the options. Thanks again.

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Rubber, 555555555!

 

We've got 1500 of the bloody things. Tappers U/S and price on its a#*e.

 

Don't despair, we're all having a think.

 

Q: Do you have your pump yet? If so, what make & model?

 

Re return ports: it's possible to get larger apertures so can you post the make of ports also?

 

Skimmer: It should be possible to cut in a third skimmer.

 

Bottom drain: OK, it's on the end wall at the deep end so not the end of the world. But do you have one or two bottom (wall) drains?

[Jai Dee]

58 minutes ago, sappersrest said:

more pipes through the structure are not a good idea unless they are puddle flanged.

It's been a  long time since I heard that term but it makes good sense.

 

 

 

[grollies]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

if that is the case Carl should forget all bloody skimmers and skim with highest efficiency by overflow.

 

...if that is technically possible (space available for ballast tank).

That's a big design change in order to overcome the addition of one more skimmer?

[Naam]

18 minutes ago, grollies said:

That's a big design change in order to overcome the addition of one more skimmer?

if there is space for a ballast tank it's not a problem. skimmers are an inefficient eyesore and often a (clap-clap-clap) earsore. but i realised the skimmer based design too late to object. 

 

on the other hand it might be soothing to count how many times some floating debris, e.g. a dead mouse, is circlinging the surface till it's finally sucked in [one of] the skimmers.

 

[carlyai]

That's a big design change in order to overcome the addition of one more skimmer?

I was originally going to do this, but too hard basket for the workers I thought.
One easy question down.[emoji26]

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[sappersrest]

nearly there with the sums just like any Brit must stop for a brew. and it isn't looking to bad for so far , just another 300 inlets???

[grollies]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

if there is space for a ballast tank it's not a problem. skimmers are an inefficient eyesore and often a (clap-clap-clap) earsore. but i realised the skimmer based design too late to object. 

 

on the other hand it might be soothing to count how many times some floating debris, e.g. a dead mouse, is circlinging the surface till it's finally sucked in [one of] the skimmers.

 

Mice, frogs, sparrow chicks all removed from skimmer baskets. They seem to work well.

 

Clap, clap of skimmers only if pool water level too low/pump not running.

 

Mind you, with an indoor pool I don't expect you have these problems 

[grollies]

1 minute ago, sappersrest said:

nearly there with the sums just like any Brit must stop for a brew. and it isn't looking to bad for so far , just another 300 inlets???

a brew??? for goodness sake man, it's well past beer o'clock!

[carlyai]

Leave the Thais alone, this is farang advice I think. If you read back thru Carl's posts there is a name mentioned.

Again, at the end of the day, I had sussed out someone over a couple of years who had done the right thing by people in Isaan.

I have taken many peoples advice, and compared, and built up my trust with my primary advisor.
It is only my fault, not anyone else's if I have stuffed up.


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[carlyai]

Ok, which you seem to have....who said That?

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[Naam]

3 minutes ago, grollies said:

with an indoor pool I don't expect you have these problems 

it's a matter of aesthetics having an indoor pool (who's area is also used for general living purposes) without a skimmer.

[beachproperty]

Good topic ....I'm also at the building stage....But have ZERO knowledge.

[sappersrest]

14x4 x1.5 = 84 m/3 Based on a 4 hour turn over.

 

Turn over reqd 4 hours  =20 m/3 per hour could be more  if required. that will lessen the pipe sizes etc but water clarity will be affected.

 

Filter sized  to filter 50 m/3 hour  per m/2  top point of hi rate filtration

 

750mm Dia sand filter

 

Pump  capable of delivering at least 20m/3 per hour at 10m head

 

 Main suction flow capable of of coping with 20m/3  at a velocity of 2m/ sec  3 inch pipe will take 32m/3 at that velocity.

 

 Skimmers 3no connected with 2 inch pipe each skimmer taking  7m/3 per hour at a velocity of 1m/sec connected to a 3 inch pipe in plant room  i.e. 3x2 inch

 

Bottom /wall sumps must be 2 and at least 2m apart to prevent entrapment by hair or any one sitting on them

Connecting pipe 2.5 each then into 3 inch pipe should the whole of the pool circulate flow  just through the sumps then the suction velocity will be safe i.e. pool level low but still may  wish to circulate

 

Delivery inlets capable of delivering the said 20m/3 per hour at a safe velocity of 2m/ sec

Most eyeball inlets are capable of delivering 4m/3 per hour at a velocity of 4m/sec  which  are within guidelines ,is ok a bit high considering you have to try and match inlets to outlets

 

 5 inlets would be ok  at a push but 8 would be better.

Hope this helps.

 

The reasons why velocities are so import to high on the suction is a recipe for hair entrapment.

To high on inlets can cause bruising and in shallow water push small children over.

[sappersrest]

All is not lost it may be we can work out away using your existing four inlets it will mean that you won't be using eye ball fittings but either a bespoke fitting made i.e. a grill with the same outlet area as a 2 inch pipe or greater,

You will defiantly need  3 skimmers though.

Lets see what tomorrow brings.

 

[carlyai]

Thanks.

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[carlyai]

Good topic ....I'm also at the building stage....But have ZERO knowledge.

Don't ask me.

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[carlyai]

Here's some more thoughts while Sappersrest et all recover.

 

1. Main Drain.

I did do research on this and it seems there are reasons to have, and not to have 2 main drains.

The reasons to have two main drains is for safety and to allow drainage of dirt that sinks to the bottom and misses being skimmed.

The reason not to have main drains seemed more compelling, in that main drains in the pool floor have been known to leak, and that any dirt that sinks to the pool floor can easily be vaccumed up.

So from what I read, it seemed to me that the latest thoughts were not to have main drains.

On advice I did stick a pipe in the wall for a main drain. I could use this as another inlet and not as a drain.

 

2. I also have an extra nozzle for a vacuum line. I could use this as a switchable inlet/vaccume line, or just as an inlet, and vaccume from the skimmer.

 

That could give me 6 input 2" nozzles.

 

 

The first 2 pics shows the grate I have for the drain, but I could use these for inlet water covers and not the eye-ball fittings.

The 3rd picture is the vacuum drain, which could be used as an inlet.

 

The 4th pic. is the deep end main drain, that could be used as an inlet.

 

The 5th and 6th pics. are of the skimmer cut-outs on the long wall, 1m from the ends.

 

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[grollies]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Here's some more thoughts while Sappersrest et all recover.

 

1. Main Drain.

I did do research on this and it seems there are reasons to have, and not to have 2 main drains.

The reasons to have two main drains is for safety and to allow drainage of dirt that sinks to the bottom and misses being skimmed.

The reason not to have main drains seemed more compelling, in that main drains in the pool floor have been known to leak, and that any dirt that sinks to the pool floor can easily be vaccumed up.

So from what I read, it seemed to me that the latest thoughts were not to have main drains.

On advice I did stick a pipe in the wall for a main drain. I could use this as another inlet and not as a drain.

Keep the drain as a suction point. The main purpose of the bottom drains is to aid water circulation. Should be 75% pulling on skimmers and 25% on LP drain. The only problem here is there are supposed to be two drains +2m apart to prevent a body becoming trapped against the suction....have to think about that.

 

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

 

2. I also have an extra nozzle for a vacuum line. I could use this as a switchable inlet/vaccume line, or just as an inlet, and vaccume from the skimmer.

 

That could give me 6 input 2" nozzles.

Great, you got 5 ports available. Look for alternative eyeball swivel with larger aperture. If you can find eyeballs with 20mm aperture 5 ports will be ok. I'll take one of mine out today, I'm sure was 17mm. You could enlarge the hole easily to 20mm.

 

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

 

 

The first 2 pics shows the grate I have for the drain, but I could use these for inlet water covers and not the eye-ball fittings.

The 3rd picture is the vacuum drain, which could be used as an inlet.

 

The 4th pic. is the deep end main drain, that could be used as an inlet.

 

The 5th and 6th pics. are of the skimmer cut-outs on the long wall, 1m from the ends.

 

 

Skimmer no problem, cut out additional gap.

 

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

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[carlyai]

"Keep the drain as a suction point. The main purpose of the bottom drains is to aid water circulation. Should be 75% pulling on skimmers and 25% on LP drain. The only problem here is there are supposed to be two drains +2m apart to prevent a body becoming trapped against the suction....have to think about that."

Yes I was worried about that, but it seems, from what I read, the legal covers now for the main drain have to be constructed so they disperse the suction to the outside, so you can't get a complete seal. Well I asked about the Thailand covers and, though not conclusive, seem to be the correct safety type. Not too sure about suction of hair though.

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[Naam]

59 minutes ago, grollies said:

Keep the drain as a suction point. The main purpose of the bottom drains is to aid water circulation. Should be 75% pulling on skimmers and 25% on LP drain. The only problem here is there are supposed to be two drains +2m apart to prevent a body becoming trapped against the suction....have to think about that.

pardon my French but this is pure refined "deleted"! will Carl install a 10hp 3-phase pump and route 100% of the suction water through the bottom drain?

 

the main drain in a pool has the function to suck/drain bottom dirt which "blown" by inground moving inlets towards the drain. of course the ignorants in Thailand have never heard about a system that is used in properly designed pools since three decades. unfortunately it was too late for me to import one (cost 600 US-Dollars which is a peanuts part of the total pool cost) when i was told "Thailand no habb!"

 

no vacuuming no nothing, pool floor always clean. the system is driven by the water flow, easy to install and maintenance free.

[Naam]

don't forget the fence Carl as well as a dozen warning signs
 

Quote

 

only bald heads allowed in pool!

violators will be shot at sight!

 

 

 

 

 

[Thaimike370]

On 09/05/2017 at 7:13 AM, Crossy said:

Personally, as a control freak, I would bring all the pipes for the return ports, skimmers, main drain and vacuum port(s) back to a marshalling point and put individual valves on each line. Full control of how your water flows.

 

It's not like PVC valves are particularly expensive

 

But that's just me, we do have four (4) 16-way electrical distribution boards in our 3 bedroom home.

 

Crossy, your comment is the correct way to do the pool plumbing.  My comment is based on working on swimming pools for forty years, all over the UK and Europe.

 

[sappersrest]

After giving it a fair bit of thought and without having to drill holes in your wall this is probably the way to go assuming that we want to go for a 4 hour turnover.

 

Pool inlets 

5 Inlets using the existing  4 pipes through the wall plus convert your vac point to an inlet giving a  potential of 4m/3 per hour each. ( use skimmer for vac point)

http://pdb.astralpool.com/pdb/en/product/Multiflow_return_inlet_threated.html

You may consider some sort of water feature waterfall as this will aid the amount of water entering the pool

 

Pool outlets

3 skimmers this will give you  around  5m/3 per hour each . Also utilize  the deep end suction point but use a different grill ensuring that this pipe throttled back in the plant room .

http://swimmingpoolsthailand.com/en/main-drains/1226-emaux-maindrain-12x12.html

 

This would be the best for you AS IT IS WIDER

http://swimmingpoolsthailand.com/en/skimmers/1172-emaux-skimmer-em0040-rc-for-concrete-pool.html

 

At present you will need to bring the pipes back to the area adjacent to your plant room can be outside.

 

You will need to bring 5 no delivery pipes say to one side 2 INCH will be fine little oversized but will be fine

You will need to bring 4 no suction  pipes say to the other side 2 INCH will be fine

DO NOT BUNCH THEM TOGETHER AS YOU WILL HAVE TO TEE THEM IN A COMMON MANIFOLD. EACH (2 MANIFOLDS)

If you can clip them to the outside of the wall of the pool tank.

 

DO NOT USE THE RUNNY PIPE CEMENT TO JOIN THE PIPES IT IS NOT CHEMICAL RESISTANT THE FORUM SPONSOR I BELIEVE SUPPLIES THE CORRECT STUFF

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, carlyai said:

"Keep the drain as a suction point. The main purpose of the bottom drains is to aid water circulation. Should be 75% pulling on skimmers and 25% on LP drain. The only problem here is there are supposed to be two drains +2m apart to prevent a body becoming trapped against the suction....have to think about that."

Yes I was worried about that, but it seems, from what I read, the legal covers now for the main drain have to be constructed so they disperse the suction to the outside, so you can't get a complete seal. Well I asked about the Thailand covers and, though not conclusive, seem to be the correct safety type. Not too sure about suction of hair though.

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My main drain, in the floor at the lowest part of the pool, is 25 x25 cm and it is impossible to get stuck to it even if you would intentionally stand on top of it.

 

How do you expect to drain your pool without a main drain in the floor?

 

Using a submersible pump?