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Appeal for more nurses ruled out despite ‘brain drain’ warning

By PRATCH RUJIVANAROM
THE NATION

 

 

AMID a dispute over adequate nursing coverage, the Civil Service Commission Office (CSCO) has said that the number of nurses in the country’s public hospitals is sufficient and the Public Health Ministry should manage existing vacant positions more efficiently.

 

A statement by the CSCO on Thursday stressed that the proportion of nurses in Thailand related to population was 21.4 nurses per 10,000 people, which is higher than the minimum standard of the World Health Organisation at 20 nurses per 10,000 people.

 

In addition, the CSCO said that the Public Health Ministry had many vacant civil servant positions. On March 3, there were total 11,213 empty civil servant positions – 5.8 per cent of all of the ministry’s 192,960 civil servant positions.

 

Given the figures, the CSCO suggested that the ministry should properly manage the vacant positions for nurses to assure efficient budgeting.

 

The ministry currently has 105,260 nursing positions, 90,574 of which are civil servants, 372 are public sector employees, 9,640 are ministry employees, and 4,674 are temporary employees.

 

 

Thailand Nursing and Midwifery Council vice president Dr Krisada Sawaengdee said that the government aimed to downsize the civil servant system which caused many nurses to be hired as governmental employees with fewer benefits and job security than civil servants.

 

“The lower benefits and unfair employment situation for governmental employee nurse is the major reason that we cannot keep the valuable and experienced nurses in the system. The nurses work hard for long hours and suffer a lot of stress in return for a cheap salary, unfair benefits, and the lack of a chance to develop in their career,” Krisada said.

 

“This problem leads to major brain drain in our public health system, as the experienced nurses resign from the public sector and work in private hospitals for a higher salary instead. Even if we can create a lot of new nurses to fill in the empty seats, we cannot hold them in the position for long.”

 

She said that if the nurses don’t get civil servant positions the authorities should increase salaries and benefits for nurses employed by the government, in order to keep them in the |system.

 

Krisada said state employees should benefit from study leave, and the right to progress in their career such as a raise and promotion and have health insurance that covers family.

 

“The good employment conditions will keep nurses in the job and assure that people will have enough |experienced nurses to take care of them, which will boost our public health service in general,” she said.

 

Thippawan Thappha, a government employee nurse, said she had been waiting to be admitted as a civil servant for four years. She said that if she was still unable to become a civil servant, she might consider working in a private hospital.

 

“We are tired of working for up to 16 hours a day to take care of the patients and bearing a lot of stress and expectation from patients’ families. We want the job stability for our life,” Thippawan said.

 

“I chose to work in the province so I can be close to my family in return for low pay. I would like to have the Civil Servant Medical Benefit Scheme for my parents and a chance to progress in my career. If I will not have those benefits, I prefer to work for higher salary in a private hospital.”

 

Yesterday was International Nurses Day, with this year’s theme “Nurses: A voice to lead – Achieving Sustainable Development Goals”.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30315071

 

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2017-05-13

[wakeupplease]

It takes someone special to become a nurse so they should be paid for doing the job. not many of us on here could ever do it that is for sure. Nurses are worth their weight in gold.

[colinneil]

20 minutes ago, wakeupplease said:

It takes someone special to become a nurse so they should be paid for doing the job. not many of us on here could ever do it that is for sure. Nurses are worth their weight in gold.

 

Sir you are 100% correct, but sadly only a few people feel the same as you and me.

This government dont give a rats a..e about nurses.

Yes the caring profession, as you rightly say nurses are worth their weight in gold.

Doctors also, i for 1 would not be here, but for their dedication.

[darksidedog]

I have nothing but respect for nurses working anywhere in the world, who do a brilliant and very difficult job. It seems the Government does not. I note that while Thailand has roughly the required minimum level of nurses on paper per 10,000 people, a lot of them are actually working in Admin, so the true number performing "nursing" duties, is actually lower than the figure offered.

[futsukayoi]

If the figure for number of nurses per 1000 population includes private hospitals it is very misleading.  The private hospitals here in Samui have a very large number of nurses per patient compared with government hospitals.  To ensure a quick service many just escort patients around or are chatting waiting.  They also seem to spend a lot more time on paperwork and billing. They obviously have many more nurses to deal with an equivalent number of patients compared to government hospitals.

[rkidlad]

I agree that there are enough nurses. Well, when you don't care about the people's wellbeing, there are actually too many.

 

Submarines on the other hand - there are not enough of those. 

[Rhys]

All the best ladies in white, however, the issues and structure of MOPH, PBRI work slowly...

[robblok]

1 hour ago, darksidedog said:

I have nothing but respect for nurses working anywhere in the world, who do a brilliant and very difficult job. It seems the Government does not. I note that while Thailand has roughly the required minimum level of nurses on paper per 10,000 people, a lot of them are actually working in Admin, so the true number performing "nursing" duties, is actually lower than the figure offered.

How is that different then in other places.. you seem to assume that they only cheat in Thailand. I seen the same happen in my country.. on paper things always look good. But assuming everyone cheats.. Thailand is not doing so badly in the Asean.

Bit surprised about the Philippines, they are poorer then Thailand but far more nurse... but in the graph Thailand is not doing so badly. 

[maoro2013]

Recently reported there was a chronic shortage of nurses. However, the government will not increase the number. It really doesn't matter what other countries do, or what the WHO reckons is OK, other things alter the effectiveness in Thai. The campaigning nurses have a valid point, there are so many of them, if all OK why are they needed?

[Lucky mike]

Hmmm, difficult nurses or subs ?

[jerojero]

Hmmm, difficult nurses or subs ?

Exactly. The PM's priorities are truly 'magnificent' among his years of babbling about bringing happiness to the Thai people. Utter b's. It's Sad.

 

[wakeupplease]

17 hours ago, robblok said:

How is that different then in other places.. you seem to assume that they only cheat in Thailand. I seen the same happen in my country.. on paper things always look good. But assuming everyone cheats.. Thailand is not doing so badly in the Asean.

Bit surprised about the Philippines, they are poorer then Thailand but far more nurse... but in the graph Thailand is not doing so badly. 

You may be surprised to know Thai nurses do not cheat that much, they work dammed hard to become nurses and its the family who foots the bill. They also have to do work that Doctors do in other countries, its 4 years of hard work for the girls who want to be successful, then some go on to masters degree and even Doctors. nurses are a dam sight more reliable and truthful that the boys in green and the Bib who do very little to help their own people unlike  Nurses and Doctors.

[Rhys]

.....Yes, many nurses do work hard, and a group of nurses that deserve acknowledgment for training and guiding these professional nurses is the nursing instructors......

[robblok]

6 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

You may be surprised to know Thai nurses do not cheat that much, they work dammed hard to become nurses and its the family who foots the bill. They also have to do work that Doctors do in other countries, its 4 years of hard work for the girls who want to be successful, then some go on to masters degree and even Doctors. nurses are a dam sight more reliable and truthful that the boys in green and the Bib who do very little to help their own people unlike  Nurses and Doctors.

You should use your brain a bit more and read what I post. We were talking about cheating in statistics, making it look like there were more nurses on paper then there really were. I commented that cheating on statistics is common and not just in Thailand.. so to assume that the figures of the other countries are all correct and the one of Thailand not is crazy. Its not the nurses or doctors who compile the statistics.. its bureaucrats and administrators who do that. 

[CharlieH]

Keep it civil please, dont get personal.

[YetAnother]

should have been more emphasis on public v private; the differences are very dramatic

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

should have been more emphasis on public v private; the differences are very dramatic

 

Right... that difference might be a huge difference.. but I wonder how it is in those other countries. In general in private hospitals there will be more nurses as in a public one. But your right that would have given a lot better insight. 

[elgordo38]

On 5/13/2017 at 7:44 AM, rkidlad said:

I agree that there are enough nurses. Well, when you don't care about the people's wellbeing, there are actually too many.

 

Submarines on the other hand - there are not enough of those. 

Could these extra nurses be retrained as submarine sailors?? 

[colinneil]

All this talk about too many nurses.

Well heres 1 for you, on a ventilator needing suction to clear the mucus build up, if not cleared you drown in your own fluids.

Desperately needing 2 nurses to help you, in a situation like that you cannot have to many nurses.

Well folks that was me 3 years ago, fortunately there were enough nurses on hand to help, otherwise i would not be making this post.

 

So all you people saying there are too many, stop for a minute and think, that could be me.

[colinneil]

Sorry made a mistake

Edited May 15, 2017 by colinneil

[elgordo38]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

All this talk about too many nurses.

Well heres 1 for you, on a ventilator needing suction to clear the mucus build up, if not cleared you drown in your own fluids.

Desperately needing 2 nurses to help you, in a situation like that you cannot have to many nurses.

Well folks that was me 3 years ago, fortunately there were enough nurses on hand to help, otherwise i would not be making this post.

 

So all you people saying there are too many, stop for a minute and think, that could be me.

Your a living miracle colin. 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

All this talk about too many nurses.

Well heres 1 for you, on a ventilator needing suction to clear the mucus build up, if not cleared you drown in your own fluids.

Desperately needing 2 nurses to help you, in a situation like that you cannot have to many nurses.

Well folks that was me 3 years ago, fortunately there were enough nurses on hand to help, otherwise i would not be making this post.

 

So all you people saying there are too many, stop for a minute and think, that could be me.

There certainly are not too many.. but given that your still alive seems there are enough. The statistics do show that Thailand is not that bad in the Asean (if they all have private and public hospitals ). I can see how private hospitals would have far more nurses then public ones. So that would skewer the statistics a bit if your comparing countries that only have public hospitals. 

 

I also assume all the countries fiddle the figures equally (meaning that nurses are counted that might be administrators). I see that most countries fiddle a bit with statistics even my own. I don't believe that Thailand would mean a lot of manipulation of the figures while the other countries are not. Remember it is Asia after all.

 

Personally I rather see money going to nurses then to submarines or tanks. But its a bit hard to skim money of nurse salaries easier to do so of tanks and subs. 

[fruitman]

28 minutes ago, robblok said:

There certainly are not too many.. but given that your still alive seems there are enough. The statistics do show that Thailand is not that bad in the Asean (if they all have private and public hospitals ). I can see how private hospitals would have far more nurses then public ones. So that would skewer the statistics a bit if your comparing countries that only have public hospitals. 

 

I also assume all the countries fiddle the figures equally (meaning that nurses are counted that might be administrators). I see that most countries fiddle a bit with statistics even my own. I don't believe that Thailand would mean a lot of manipulation of the figures while the other countries are not. Remember it is Asia after all.

 

Personally I rather see money going to nurses then to submarines or tanks. But its a bit hard to skim money of nurse salaries easier to do so of tanks and subs. 

You love to write about "your own" country, maybe you can name it as well?? Oh and tell us how many years you haven't been there.

 

And because mr Colin got plenty of nurses at his bed (western insurance) means there are enough nurses?? 

 

Get tired of reading so much bs....how long have you been in Thai hospitals to claim you know all about it? And on top of that if the Thai say they need more nurses i guess they need more of them.

 

I only know one nurse and she works about 80 hours a week and suffers from that.

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, fruitman said:

You love to write about "your own" country, maybe you can name it as well?? Oh and tell us how many years you haven't been there.

 

And because mr Colin got plenty of nurses at his bed (western insurance) means there are enough nurses?? 

 

Get tired of reading so much bs....how long have you been in Thai hospitals to claim you know all about it? And on top of that if the Thai say they need more nurses i guess they need more of them.

 

I only know one nurse and she works about 80 hours a week and suffers from that.

I am tired of your B.S.. and so were all those other people commenting on you b4.

 

My own country, the Netherlands. Been a few years that is for sure. (and what i was commenting on was fiddling with statistics, there been some cases that administrative workers were registered as nurses to show better statics was over the press in the past)

 

I don't claim to know all Thai hospitals as I just read the statistics and those show that Thailand is not doing so badly at all. I did place a few caveat's there that you chose to ignore. 

 

I have had a few encounters in Thai hospitals surgery at a public hospital a few years back but most of my time was spend in private hospitals but obviously there are more nurses there. That you know one nurse does not say a lot I know a few nurses too. It kinda depends where they work. But if your friend is working 80 hours a week that is far too much even a workaholic like me does not often rack up those kinds of hours (only in my busy periods). I know for a fact you cant work 80 hours for a long time.. at most i do 4-5 weeks straight of 80 hours and then you really feel it. So I hope your friend does not work it all the time.

 

Now, I don't pretend to know it all but the statistics show there are enough nurses.. the only caveat is the private / public distribution. I made that clear in my post. 

[fruitman]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

I am tired of your B.S.. and so were all those other people commenting on you b4.

 

My own country, the Netherlands. Been a few years that is for sure. (and what i was commenting on was fiddling with statistics, there been some cases that administrative workers were registered as nurses to show better statics was over the press in the past)

 

I don't claim to know all Thai hospitals as I just read the statistics and those show that Thailand is not doing so badly at all. I did place a few caveat's there that you chose to ignore. 

 

I have had a few encounters in Thai hospitals surgery at a public hospital a few years back but most of my time was spend in private hospitals but obviously there are more nurses there. That you know one nurse does not say a lot I know a few nurses too. It kinda depends where they work. But if your friend is working 80 hours a week that is far too much even a workaholic like me does not often rack up those kinds of hours (only in my busy periods). I know for a fact you cant work 80 hours for a long time.. at most i do 4-5 weeks straight of 80 hours and then you really feel it. So I hope your friend does not work it all the time.

 

Now, I don't pretend to know it all but the statistics show there are enough nurses.. the only caveat is the private / public distribution. I made that clear in my post. 

So when you're posting on this forum you call that "working"?? 55555, sorry but i don't.

 

Again, you can't compare private hospitals with public ones and also if you have a western insurance i guess you get more nurses at your bed than if you didn't have that insurance.

 

Lately i have visited 4 familymembers in 4 BKK hospitals and they didn't complain about a lack of nurses. And on top of that i don't believe ANY thai statistics or numbers coming out of officials.

 

Last week my (80 hour a week) thai nurse friend stayed home suddenly during the week. My wife asked her why and she goes: Well i woke up 10 minutes too late today so i stayed home and didn't go to work. If i go to hospital 10 min too late there's no way i can park my car so i stay home.

 

To me this sounds like there are more than enough nurses there or they would arrange good parking for their staff.

And she works 80 hours (2 jobs) so she can have a high standard of living. She does the work what chirurgians are supposed to do but hey in Thailand that's how it goes.

 

Working 80 hours in a thai hospital sounds much harsher than being a bookkeeper in my book.

[robblok]

I don't call posting on this forum working I would not dream of it.

 

working 80 hours in a Thai hospital is certainly much harsher then wat an accountant / tax adviser does. You won't get an argument there. 

 

Point about statistics in SE Asia is that they are all equally unreliable (Singapore exception). You either accept that they all exaggerate the amounts of nurses in the same way or you can't say anything. I doubt that they cheat more here in numbers then in other SE asian countries (Singapore excepted).

 

I am not sure that your story about parking and enough nurses is valid but not going to argue there. I doubt they value their nurses that much that they think too much about their parking. 

 

So what is your point.. do you think they have enough.. or too little nurses.. ?

 

I think on paper Thailand looks good.. but as i said.. I don't know the distribution of nurses between private and public.. and how that goes in other countries. From personal experience I never seen a shortage of nurses .. again that does not say much. But what are your thoughts ?

[wakeupplease]

On 14/05/2017 at 2:25 AM, robblok said:

You should use your brain a bit more and read what I post. We were talking about cheating in statistics, making it look like there were more nurses on paper then there really were. I commented that cheating on statistics is common and not just in Thailand.. so to assume that the figures of the other countries are all correct and the one of Thailand not is crazy. Its not the nurses or doctors who compile the statistics.. its bureaucrats and administrators who do that. 

If you had said what you said here, I would have understand you better. On reading I and an other thought you implied Nurses cheat to become nurses which most do not.

 

As for using my brain I will try but sometimes its hard on here with what is written

 

But I agree with you on

 

bureaucrats and administrators, hope you do not mind me adding the greens to

[jerojero]

PM: To hell with necessary patient care for the sick, let's buy some absolutely needed submarines. The people will be happier.