Anyone live at Wararom Kaewnawarat (off Outer Ring Road)? Considering buying a home there.

[CrashTestDummy]

Greetings,

 

As the title suggests, I'm considering buying a home at Wararom Kaewnawaratoff located off Outer Ring Road (Google Maps link). If anyone has any experience with living in this moo baan (good or bad), I'd be interested in hearing about it before buying a home there. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer. Thank you.

 

-CTD

[Dante99]

Why would you want to buy there?  There are so many other more appealing places.

[Wandr]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

Why would you want to buy there?  There are so many other more appealing places.

I think that is what he is trying to determine.

But if you have other areas to suggest why don't you post them? It may be of help to others as well.

[LannaGuy]

San Sai is a really nice place to live but you will get FAR greater value not buying in a Moo Baan

[cyberfarang]

How does a Farlang get around the legalities of buying and owning a home in a moo baan and other than a condo, anywhere else in Thailand?

[simoh1490]

13 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

How does a Farlang get around the legalities of buying and owning a home in a moo baan and other than a condo, anywhere else in Thailand?

I know one person who uses an usufruct with a remotely acquainted Thai person as owner, another uses a superficies the same way. There are also nominee companies that charge an annual fee which achieves the same end. The former may sound risky but perhaps not as much so as you might think, the usufructee keeps control of the ownership right up to the point of sale which of course needs to include something for the chanotte holder. The thing is though the chanotte holder doesn't get his incentive money unless he plays ball with the usufructee and he can't do much with the channotte because it is encumbered with the usufruct.

[cyberfarang]

17 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I know one person who uses an usufruct with a remotely acquainted Thai person as owner, another uses a superficies the same way. There are also nominee companies that charge an annual fee which achieves the same end. The former may sound risky but perhaps not as much so as you might think, the usufructee keeps control of the ownership right up to the point of sale which of course needs to include something for the chanotte holder. The thing is though the chanotte holder doesn't get his incentive money unless he plays ball with the usufructee and he can't do much with the channotte because it is encumbered with the usufruct.

This does not mean the Farlang buyer actually can own the land and property and I have heard of cases when during a divorce or Thai wife dies that a usufruct is not worth the paper it`s written on.

 

I am a retiree expat in Thailand and have been with my Thai girlfriend for many years. She wants us to officially marry and buy (with my money of course) her brother`s land and house. No way. I would never put my money into a project whereas others would benefit and I would always be vulnerable relying on the goodwill and trust of other people.

 

Convince me that my investment would be rock solid, no one could throw me off and I may consider it.

Edited May 22, 2017 by cyberfarang

[steven100]

6 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

This does not mean the Farlang buyer actually can own the land and property and I have heard of cases when during a divorce or Thai wife dies that a usufruct is not worth the paper it`s written on.

 

I am a retiree expat in Thailand and have been with my Thai girlfriend for many years. She wants us to officially marry and buy (with my money of course) her brother`s land and house. No way. I would never put my money into a project whereas others would benefit and I would always be vulnerable relying on the goodwill and trust of other people.

 

Convince me that my investment would be rock solid, no one could throw me off and I may consider it.

so your relationship isn't very rock solid  ......

[macinc]

I have lived there for 5 years. There may be better places but I don't know where?

 

[cyberfarang]

Irrelevant. My question is still to the OP. How does he intend to get around the legalities of buying a home in Thailand? Because I am interested to learn how he and others can manage to swing these deals.

[Foozool]

25 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Irrelevant. My question is still to the OP. How does he intend to get around the legalities of buying a home in Thailand? Because I am interested to learn how he and others can manage to swing these deals.

Buy land on her name and lease the land 30 year from her (your girlfriend , not your wife) 

She will have the land if you pass away. 

But she still could kill you to take over the property.  555   

Edited May 22, 2017 by Foozool

[WinnieTheKhwai]

59 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

This does not mean the Farlang buyer actually can own the land and property and I have heard of cases when

 

Are we seriously doing this convo again?  :)   (I guess we are..) 

 

I am a retiree expat in Thailand and have been with my Thai girlfriend for many years. She wants us to officially marry and buy (with my money of course) her brother`s land and house.

 

Convince me that my investment would be rock solid, no one could throw me off and I may consider it.

 

Even proposing to spend real money on land that is already in the family is exceptionally un-Thai, and a giant red flag, not only to the proposal at hand.

 

It actually beats China in terms of really big red flags. :)

 

 

That said, if it's any other land that the family will then acquire then at least it makes some sense.   It typically isn't crazy expensive or all that much of an investment, and realistically how many years do we even have on this planet, so considering that whatever you purchase in whichever way can't go with you into the grave anyway, it's perhaps not as big a topic as its made out to be.

[evenstevens]

43 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Irrelevant. My question is still to the OP. How does he intend to get around the legalities of buying a home in Thailand? Because I am interested to learn how he and others can manage to swing these deals.

wake up cobber, post#6, outlines  a safe route to take, ,done it 12 yrs ago ,have,nt lost a wink of sleep since,but E/S has  some very nice rider clauses included,which serve as very valuable bargaining chips if i was going to get shafted, more then one way to skin a cat, u know

go to a reputable lawyer for further advice on how it can be set up, instead of picking my brain,as we have all different agendas on this type of deal

a  Gary Cooper High Noon  to all

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

I have heard of cases when during a divorce or Thai wife dies that a usufruct is not worth the paper it`s written on.

This can be true but only, if the usufruct is actually between spouses, and it was registered after their marriage.

 

 

[LannaGuy]

12 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

This can be true but only, if the usufruct is actually between spouses, and it was registered after their marriage.

 

 

three steps:

 

1. Lifetime Usufruct with your name on Chanot
2. Will : if the Thai dies you get the house and Thai law says you have 1 year to sell.
3. Pre-Signed PoA  UNDATED with pre-signed Thai ID  UNDATED

Edited May 22, 2017 by LannaGuy

[Bulldozer Dawn]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

This does not mean the Farlang buyer actually can own the land and property and I have heard of cases when during a divorce or Thai wife dies that a usufruct is not worth the paper it`s written on.

 

I am a retiree expat in Thailand and have been with my Thai girlfriend for many years. She wants us to officially marry and buy (with my money of course) her brother`s land and house. No way. I would never put my money into a project whereas others would benefit and I would always be vulnerable relying on the goodwill and trust of other people.

 

Convince me that my investment would be rock solid, no one could throw me off and I may consider it.

The flip side is that properties in some areas are so cheap that it negates the risk.  Last year I bought a house and land for circa 410K all in and then spent about 180K to tidy it up.  I currently rent it for 6K per month.  You do the math on the ROI.

 

It is in my girlfriend's name with a usufruct in my name on the deed.  Is there some risk.  Sure.  But most investments with a yield of above 10% usually come with risk.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bulldozer Dawn

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

This does not mean the Farlang buyer actually can own the land and property and I have heard of cases when during a divorce or Thai wife dies that a usufruct is not worth the paper it`s written on.

 

I am a retiree expat in Thailand and have been with my Thai girlfriend for many years. She wants us to officially marry and buy (with my money of course) her brother`s land and house. No way. I would never put my money into a project whereas others would benefit and I would always be vulnerable relying on the goodwill and trust of other people.

 

Convince me that my investment would be rock solid, no one could throw me off and I may consider it.

 

Foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, you know that so why even point it out, nobody was ever going to give you an answer that was useful saying you can!.

 

If the usufruct is with your wife then yes, there is risk at the time of divorce, not so if with your girlfriend.

 

Convince you! That's not my job, you simply asked how do people do it. That having been said, I have usufruct with my girlfriend as chanotte owner and I'm pretty certain it's rock solid since usufructs have been tested in the courts. The thing is, my will leaves everything to my girlfriend anyway so I certainly never loose sleep over it - if she dies before me I have one year to sell the property because I am the sole beneficiary of her will, even if I can't sell in that time, it doesn't change much at all. As they say in Thailand, up to you!

[LannaGuy]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

Foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, you know that so why even point it out, nobody was ever going to give you an answer that was useful saying you can!.

 

If the usufruct is with your wife then yes, there is risk at the time of divorce, not so if with your girlfriend.

 

Convince you! That's not my job, you simply asked how do people do it. That having been said, I have usufruct with my girlfriend as chanotte owner and I'm pretty certain it's rock solid since usufructs have been tested in the courts. The thing is, my will leaves everything to my girlfriend anyway so I certainly never loose sleep over it - if she dies before me I have one year to sell the property because I am the sole beneficiary of her will, even if I can't sell in that time, it doesn't change much at all. As they say in Thailand, up to you!

correct please see my post about the '3 steps (to heaven)'  make sure you have pre-signed PoA and Wills are in place no one can sell that place unless Usufructee agrees (you)

[Bulldozer Dawn]

11 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

Foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, you know that so why even point it out, nobody was ever going to give you an answer that was useful saying you can!.

 

If the usufruct is with your wife then yes, there is risk at the time of divorce, not so if with your girlfriend.

 

Convince you! That's not my job, you simply asked how do people do it. That having been said, I have usufruct with my girlfriend as chanotte owner and I'm pretty certain it's rock solid since usufructs have been tested in the courts. The thing is, my will leaves everything to my girlfriend anyway so I certainly never loose sleep over it - if she dies before me I have one year to sell the property because I am the sole beneficiary of her will, even if I can't sell in that time, it doesn't change much at all. As they say in Thailand, up to you!

What do you do for proof of you address when you do your annual extension on you visa.  Do you have a lease from your girl friend?

[Bill97]

I have lived there for 5 years. There may be better places but I don't know where?
 

21 posts and this is the only one that seems to answer the OP's inquiry, isn't it? Congratulations Macinc.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, Bulldozer Dawn said:

What do you do for proof of you address when you do your annual extension on you visa.  Do you have a lease from your girl friend?

My name is on the back of the channote, because of the usufruct, I also attach a copy of the usufruct itself and Immigration is perfectly happy with that.

Edited May 22, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

We used to read a lot of stories on TVF about how dangerous it was to have an usufruct  because if the Thai partner died then the family would become owners of the property and would get you out of the property somehow and you'd have nowhere to live - frankly, none of those stories were even a little bit credible but some people do still recite them. The fact is the usufruct holder alone determines who lives in the property and who can't live there, including the channote holder!

 

It is true that the usufruct dies when the usufuct holder dies but at that point the holder probably doesn't care too much because he's dead!  Despite what you may hear to the contrary, the chances of your (hypothetically deceased) partners family killing you, just to get the property is extremely remote, especially when they will make a windfall profit anyway when you as the usufruct holder sells the property (I think it would be sensible to pay the family/heirs a percentage of the sale value and to make them aware of this in order to avoid hard feelings).

[XGM]

What about having the land be on the name of a (Thai citizen) child?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

30 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

My name is on the back of the channote, because of the usufruct, I also attach a copy of the usufruct itself and Immigration is perfectly happy with that.

Interesting.  Never heard of anyone using that solution.

 

Is the tabien ban in your girl's name?

 

And what province are you in?

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, XGM said:

What about having the land be on the name of a (Thai citizen) child?

Others can advise more accurately on this aspect, as I recall the child would need to be of legal age of consent or greater I believe.

 

But there is a third option which I understand is very secure and that is to have an usufruct with a third person involved and that is particularly useful if the usufruct is between husband and wife. What that means is that the usufruct cannot be dissolved at time of divorce because doing so would impact the third party - I seem to recall that such a scenario would involve an usufruct being granted by the Thai wife and child, to the foreign husband.....others should feel free to correct my understanding of this as required.

[simoh1490]

8 minutes ago, Bulldozer Dawn said:

Interesting.  Never heard of anyone using that solution.

 

Is the tabien ban in your girl's name?

 

And what province are you in?

Yep, the TB is in my girlfriends name.....we bought the house together three years ago, I paid for it, her name is on the channote, the usufruct was put in place at the time of purchase, all done by our trusted lawyer kuhn Sumalee. This is Chiang Mai Province, the purchase and usufruct done at Mae Rim Amphur.

 

Back on topic: have to agree with the earlier comment somebody made, there's far better value to be had from buying individual properties rather than buying from a housing tract of boxes, all built by the same builder, all to the same poor standards and all looking identical.

Edited May 22, 2017 by simoh1490

[Bulldozer Dawn]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Yep, the TB is in my girlfriends name.....we bought the house together three years ago, I paid for it, her name is on the channote, the usufruct was put in place at the time of purchase, all done by our trusted lawyer kuhn Sumalee. This is Chiang Mai Province, the purchase and usufruct done at Mae Rim Amphur.

Thanks.  I did the usufruct here myself.  It is on a rental property.  I may move into it in the future however, and thus was interested what you were doing for your extension.  

 

Was the usufruct put in place on the same day/time as the transfer of the property?

[simoh1490]

Just now, Bulldozer Dawn said:

Thanks.  I did the usufruct here myself.  It is on a rental property.  I may move into it in the future however, and thus was interested what you were doing for your extension.  

 

Was the usufruct put in place on the same day/time as the transfer of the property?

 

Yes indeed. We were advised to show a small monthly payment from myself to my girlfriend each month thus proving that the usufruct I had been given was not free - if it was seen to be free a case could be made potentially that she was my proxy or nominee. That really is a belt and braces measure but wasn't a problem for us  since I do transfer housekeeping money to my girlfriend each month to pay all our bills and a portion of those funds could easily take the appearance of payment for the usufruct. The final piece of the security picture is that my Thai Will AND my UK Will leaves all my assets to my girlfriend anyway hence the idea of her being my proxy is not supportable.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

Yes indeed. We were advised to show a small monthly payment from myself to my girlfriend each month thus proving that the usufruct I had been given was not free - if it was seen to be free a case could be made potentially that she was my proxy or nominee. That really is a belt and braces measure but wasn't a problem for us  since I do transfer housekeeping money to my girlfriend each month to pay all our bills and a portion of those funds could easily take the appearance of payment for the usufruct. The final piece of the security picture is that my Thai Will AND my UK Will leaves all my assets to my girlfriend anyway hence the idea of her being my proxy is not supportable.

Hmm...even more interesting.  The advice I received is that there should be NO evidence of payment in return for the usufruct because that in itself would evidence a proxy arrangement.

[simoh1490]

8 minutes ago, Bulldozer Dawn said:

Hmm...even more interesting.  The advice I received is that there should be NO evidence of payment in return for the usufruct because that in itself would evidence a proxy arrangement.

Hmmm! No upfront payment I can understand but not monthly payments, after all, a lease holder would make a lease payment every month and that's not viewed as anything odd.