Two men publicly caned in Indonesia for having gay sex

[piersbeckett]

15 hours ago, crystal sauce said:

Why?

To show it's a punishment metered out by the authority, not the individual applying it - I guess.

 

Unless the crowd has been forced or pressured into attending, they are, as JT has said, complicit, in which case, the punishment is being enacted by the crowd's representatives i.e. on behalf of the crowd.

 

I feel sorry, not only for these victims of prejudice but for the millions of Muslims who've managed to get away with reading widely outside the Koran and to take on board other influences than those dished out by 'control freak' mullahs for they must feel, at least privately, deeply shamed over such a public demonstration of ignorance, arrogance, futility and barbaric behavior in the 21st. century in the name of Islam.

[crystal sauce]

7 hours ago, balo said:

In Saudi Arabia they would have been killed.  

Name one?

[JemJem]

Sad to know that Indonesia, which is said to be one of the most liberal of the Muslim-majority countries, has been going more and more conservative lately. Other than this despicable incident, let's not forget about the arrest and imprisonment of Ahok recently due to a blasphemy law. By the way, I wish the UN declared blasphemy laws as being against human rights and dignity. Sadly, it probably won't ever happen.

 

Will there be sharia law eventually throughout Indonesia ? I hope not but the signs are not good.

Edited May 26, 2017 by JemJem

[steven100]

3 hours ago, piersbeckett said:

To show it's a punishment metered out by the authority, not the individual applying it - I guess.

 

Unless the crowd has been forced or pressured into attending, they are, as JT has said, complicit, in which case, the punishment is being enacted by the crowd's representatives i.e. on behalf of the crowd.

 

I feel sorry, not only for these victims of prejudice but for the millions of Muslims who've managed to get away with reading widely outside the Koran and to take on board other influences than those dished out by 'control freak' mullahs for they must feel, at least privately, deeply shamed over such a public demonstration of ignorance, arrogance, futility and barbaric behavior in the 21st. century in the name of Islam.

not forgetting the religious police actual broke into there room to arrest them ......  how F*^%ed up is that ...... in your own house .....

[Naam]

2 hours ago, steven100 said:

not forgetting the religious police actual broke into there room to arrest them ......  how F*^%ed up is that ...... in your own house .....

what happens in Thailand or any other country when you break the law, e.g. shooting heroin or snuffing cocaine in "your own house" and the authorities get to know about it?

[Naam]

5 hours ago, piersbeckett said:

Unless the crowd has been forced or pressured into attending, they are, as JT has said, complicit, in which case, the punishment is being enacted by the crowd's representatives i.e. on behalf of the crowd.

where's my hat?

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, crystal sauce said:

Name one?

I never saw any capital punishment in Saudi because we were warned to stay away from the mosque on Fridays, which is when they carry out punishment. But it was common knowledge that they killed homosexuals. 

From Wikipedia.

LGBT rights are not recognized by the government of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi social mores and laws are heavily influenced by Arab tribal customs and ultra-conservative Wahhabi Islam. Homosexuality and transgenderism are widely seen as immoral and indecent activities, and the law punishes acts of homosexuality or cross-dressing with execution, imprisonment, fines, corporal punishment, or whipping/flogging.

[crystal sauce]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never saw any capital punishment in Saudi because we were warned to stay away from the mosque on Fridays, which is when they carry out punishment. But it was common knowledge that they killed homosexuals. 

From Wikipedia.

LGBT rights are not recognized by the government of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi social mores and laws are heavily influenced by Arab tribal customs and ultra-conservative Wahhabi Islam. Homosexuality and transgenderism are widely seen as immoral and indecent activities, and the law punishes acts of homosexuality or cross-dressing with execution, imprisonment, fines, corporal punishment, or whipping/flogging.

There are laws against homosexuality but never implemented as far as I know.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, crystal sauce said:

There are laws against homosexuality but never implemented as far as I know.

Then you don't know much, eh?

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/gay-parties-raided-saudi-arabia-religious-police-arrest-several-people-suspicion-1968038

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

where's my hat?

Lost in translation. 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, crystal sauce said:

There are laws against homosexuality but never implemented as far as I know.

If referring to Saudi, wrong then. My ex flatmate was banged up for homosexuality. Lucky I wasn't staying with him anymore or I'd have been done as an accomplice, regardless of the truth.

Westerners weren't killed, but might have been flogged.

Maids from countries like the Phillipines are jailed after becoming pregnant when their employers rape them ( nothing happened to the employers because the women "tempted" them ).

I have no doubt that some homosexuals suffered the ultimate punishment, even though I didn't see it with my own eyes.

[Luckysilk]

33 minutes ago, crystal sauce said:

There are laws against homosexuality but never implemented as far as I know.

Yes there are laws and sentencing for canning and detention that are enforced but I've not heard of a capital punishment case either.

 

Their country their laws - you don't like don't visit, really rather simple.

[piersbeckett]

20 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Lost in translation. 

Quite

[Dagnabbit]

I have an anthropological theory on this (you may not be surprised) that is apparently unique - at least I've never heard it elsewhere. Thus:
 

The apparent paradox that homosexuality is selected for so widely can be explained as an evolutionary process like any other, only nobody understands why. The explanation is that homosexuals are basically freed from the drudgery of procreation to develop society in other ways - intellectual/artistic pursuits, and also in vital service activities such as grooming (and interior decorating, to jest just a little). It's no coincidence that most (yes, most) of the greatest artists and intellectuals through history, right back to Socrates, have been gay. The effect of the biological liberation of this group has literally been, on a macro level over the ages, to develop the human mind and effectively boost human evolution. In that sense I would claim that homosexuality has actually been essential to the development of the human species.

 
So. Far from being vilified, homosexuals should be honoured for their special gifts, right? Why is the whole notion of homosexuality still taboo and repressed to the point of illegality in some countries? The answer relates to the country's stage of social development. Societies that are still struggling to establish themselves hold mere procreation to be of primary importance. Everyone knows that homosexuality still exists and recognises the contribution they make, but removing the taboo from homosexuality would encourage effeteness and decadence before their society is ready for it - they consider that they still have building and fighting to do. Socio-economically advanced countries have already made it - the macho struggle for survival and for establishing a secure and affluent society is now over and they can now relax and open up. Hence we see different attitudes among different societies.
 
This concludes the analysis. Put my Nobel in the post. I thang yew.

I see one flaw in this as a theory of evolution.

Lack of reproduction...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ddavidovsky]

3 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

 

I see one flaw in this as a theory of evolution.

Lack of reproduction...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was the apparent paradox which I explained. The advantage is transmitted socially. For instance, Leonardo da Vinci (no doubt in my mind he was gay, though conventional society may resist the idea) took mankind forward and showed us things we still benefit from today, without him ever having had children - and the reason he was able to do what he did was because he wasn't bogged down with domesticity.

Man is a highly social species, so the transmittal works very effectively.

 

This theory can change the world quite extensively - more than any other theory since Darwin (and Darwin has arguably had fairly limited practical effect). If nations suddenly realised that homosexuals make an important social contribution to human development (I honestly don't believe it's occurred to them), and if nations are shamed by being easily rated on a scale of social development as revealed by the their treatment of homosexuals, then the sum of human happiness will take the biggest single leap in history.

 

However, I have reservations about pushing it because the inevitably consequence is that society will become more effete as gays start openly having relationships and even bringing up children - that wasn't evolution's plan, and some cultures simply aren't ready for that - ie, they really do have more building and fighting to do.

 

I'm not gay myself, by the way. Just an objective observer.

Edited May 27, 2017 by ddavidovsky
changed 'trait' to 'advantage'

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/26/2017 at 4:17 PM, Luckysilk said:

Yes there are laws and sentencing for canning and detention that are enforced but I've not heard of a capital punishment case either.

 

Their country their laws - you don't like don't visit, really rather simple.

It's not a national law far as I know. It's only in Aceh which is fudamentalist.

I certainly won't be ever going there.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

 

I see one flaw in this as a theory of evolution.

Lack of reproduction...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Perhaps it is a genetic survival mechanism then. When humans become overpopulated they become homosexual and stop reproducing. We are overpopulated now.

[iReason]

On May 26, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Luckysilk said:

Their country their laws - you don't like don't visit, really rather simple.

 

Unless you were born there and live there.

[Naam]

10 hours ago, iReason said:

On 5/26/2017 at 4:17 PM, Luckysilk said:

Their country their laws - you don't like don't visit, really rather simple.

 

Unless you were born there and live there.

shit happens.

[Luckysilk]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

shit happens.

Guess they could always move or maybe even start a go fund me page to buy a passport or find a husband.

[Rc2702]

On 2017-5-23 at 2:31 PM, oilinki said:

It was not only that. They publicly caned woman for physical affection outside marriage.

 

What an screwed up society.

 

 

Batter up!

[geriatrickid]

Why anyone with a sense of fairness, a social conscience would want to vacation in Indonesia is beyond me. Seriously, think about it. The country and the values it espouses are everything civilized countries are not: Where is the compassion and respect for individual freedoms?

 

The next time I see another post on TVF about how the angry person will go to Bali instead because they object to   taxi fares in Thailand, I will ask, so you don't object to the caning of young adults who harmed no one and who's crime was one of mutual affection?

 

Oddly enough we do not see the  European lefties protesting this. Perhaps, not trendy enough.

[Chou Anou]

On 5/24/2017 at 0:36 AM, Jingthing said:

I saw an interview with one of the perverted pious Muslim ladies that had watched and cheered this Islamist BARBARISM. Her comment was telling. She said this is a positive thing, we need to do this to stop everyone in the world going for same gender attraction. Classic homophobia that. It's almost funny if it wasn't so tragic -- as if homosexuality is so incredibly tempting and attractive that everyone would do it unless society literally cracks the whip against it. 

 

Well, I think it is true that those most afraid of homosexuality (and thus those who lash out against gays in the most extreme ways) are usually those who are most afraid of the tendencies and desires they see in themselves.  Lookin' at you, Pence (and the rest of the Xian Right in the US, many of whom I'm sure would applaud the canings in Indonesia).

[geriatrickid]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:22 PM, Naam said:

shit happens.

Indeed. That's what the world said when a nasty teutonic bully decided to annex the Sudetenland. That changed in 1939. The coward who claimed peace in our time was replaced by a great leader who knew right from wrong and who led the world in the pursuit of justice and decency.

When the cesspool leaks, one may not immediately see the damage, but it is there, slowly spreading contaminating and killing everything that comes into contact with the  poisonous contents.

 

 

 

[geriatrickid]

2 minutes ago, Chou Anou said:

Well, I think it is true that those most afraid of homosexuality (and thus those who lash out against gays in the most extreme ways) are usually those who are most afraid of the tendencies and desires they see in themselves.  Lookin' at you, Pence (and the rest of the Xian Right in the US, many of whom I'm sure would applaud the canings in Indonesia).

No. Please  give some specific references to   these Christian groups who applaud the canings. The Westboro collective of the mentally ill is not representative of any Christian organization. All of the principal Christian organizations are opposed to  Shariah law, particularly its application  to non adherents.  You are attempting to drag in a party that does not practice caning and which is precluded by law from doing so.  This is about fundamental human rights and the law.   Even the most draconian of  evangelical groups in the USA accepts the  US Constitution and the rule of civil law.

[Chou Anou]

28 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

No. Please  give some specific references to   these Christian groups who applaud the canings. The Westboro collective of the mentally ill is not representative of any Christian organization. All of the principal Christian organizations are opposed to  Shariah law, particularly its application  to non adherents.  You are attempting to drag in a party that does not practice caning and which is precluded by law from doing so.  This is about fundamental human rights and the law.   Even the most draconian of  evangelical groups in the USA accepts the  US Constitution and the rule of civil law.

I said "I'm sure they would support it"...that's my opinion.  I didn't say they actually DO support it, at least not in print.  Though many Xian groups do support barbaric "conversion therapy" for gays.  And given the tendencies described below, I don't think that supposing they would support caning, at least privately, is that much of a stretch:

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/15/mike-pence-will-be-the-most-powerful-christian-supremacist-in-us-history/

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-crusade-for-christian-sharia-law

 

https://www.juancole.com/2016/07/should-pences-christian.html

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/pakistani-talibanchristianconservativesshariabancampaign.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

[steven100]

On 27/05/2017 at 3:27 PM, Dagnabbit said:

I have an anthropological theory on this (you may not be surprised) that is apparently unique - at least I've never heard it elsewhere. Thus:

You should stop smoking that stuff  .............  make sure you take your medication

[geriatrickid]

8 hours ago, Chou Anou said:

I said "I'm sure they would support it"...that's my opinion.  I didn't say they actually DO support it, at least not in print.  Though many Xian groups do support barbaric "conversion therapy" for gays.  And given the tendencies described below, I don't think that supposing they would support caning, at least privately, is that much of a stretch:

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/15/mike-pence-will-be-the-most-powerful-christian-supremacist-in-us-history/

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-conservative-crusade-for-christian-sharia-law

 

https://www.juancole.com/2016/07/should-pences-christian.html

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/pakistani-talibanchristianconservativesshariabancampaign.html

 

So all you have are "opinions" and not one actual factual example? Brilliant.

The fact of the matter it is impossible that there can ever be a sharia like "christian" law in the USA because of the US Constitution. Human rights are protected. There is a separation of church and state that cannot be overturned.

 

[Prbkk]

The nutters have their sights set on Sharia Law for the whole of the country: and with weak sister Joko now in charge they probably see a good chance for furthering that agenda.

It's not just Indonesia: the whacko govt in Malaysia is giving prizes to schoolchildren ( 13-18) who prepare the best video aimed at stopping kids becoming gay ( reported in the BP yesterday). Madness.

[Trentham]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

So all you have are "opinions" and not one actual factual example? Brilliant.

The fact of the matter it is impossible that there can ever be a sharia like "christian" law in the USA because of the US Constitution. Human rights are protected. There is a separation of church and state that cannot be overturned.

 

Everybody should be aware that Sharia law states that Muslims must live by the law of the land in which they are. Therefore there should be no contradiction between USA law and Sharia law. That applies to all non-Muslim countries.