Thai parties concerned PM could push back 2018 vote, retain power

[Trumpish]

5 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

On the political landscape it was peaceful. No-one is changing the subject here.

 

The 'war on drugs' was overwhelmingly popular, partly because it was 'approved' and because the country had to do something drastic at the time. It had a 90% or more approval rate among Thais. 

 

2000 to 2005 were halcyon days for Thailand. It's a total mess now. 

 

 

Agreed, though I was not a Thaksin supporter at that time.

 

Also, since it was mentioned in a post above, someone was holding Thaksin responsible for the deaths at Tak Bai. Shameful though that was, it wasn't Thaksin, it was yet another atrocity by the Thai Army, perpetrated not against invaders or foreign nationals, but against the Thai people, which is all they ever manage to do successfully.  Laos farmers? Thais got their bottoms kicked. Japanese? Thais surrendered when a single platoon of Japs showed up on the Thai border - without a shot being fired. Cambodian smugglers? Thais missed every shot. IIRC, 2 Thai soldiers died. Unlamented.

 

The whole Thai Armed Forces are reminiscent of the Keystone Kops.

 

Anyway, when did they ever listen to a mere PM?, they're far too high and mighty for that. Or so they believe. Sickening. And now we have the spectacle of the former head of the Army grumbling because ppl don't abide by the law,. Hilarious in an ironic sort of a way,

[onthesoi]

13 minutes ago, Trumpish said:

Also, since it was mentioned in a post above, someone was holding Thaksin responsible for the deaths at Tak Bai. Shameful though that was, it wasn't Thaksin, it was yet another atrocity by the Thai Army,

Thaksin was PM at the time therefore in charge of the army so that makes him responsable.

Edited May 30, 2017 by onthesoi

[onthesoi]

58 minutes ago, seminomadic said:

Listen to how ridiculous it sounds to complain about "drug barons were trying to wipe each other" as if that's not ideal to be sought out in any society. 

If its so sought out in any society then are why are exactly none of the first world countries doing the same?

 

Rediculous is the IQ of some in this thread.....

 

There are decades of data that show wars on drugs are useless no matter howm many trillions of of dollars spent or by who.

Edited May 30, 2017 by onthesoi

[Chris Lawrence]

Its a good gig.

[Eric Loh]

The junta PM should not consider to push back the 2018 election and in fact should seriously consider running for office since he is so popular and competent as many junta supporters attest to that. He should not even have to muzzle anyone or the media because he done so much good and ridding corruption etc etc.  He don't need article 44 to protect himself because he is so popular and love by the majority. He should easily be elected and rid Thaksin regime in this face off. No need to sneak in laws and appoint all his men in the upper house so he can be appointed as non-elected PM. General Sonti have the guts to seek office through election; you should too. 

[Smarter Than You]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

There is the need for coups when you got the likes of Thaksin, in real democracies you don't need coups. 

 

I have said it multiple times I want the junta to be accountable too. No different standards here.

 

What I am saying is that if you keep offering people popular policies that drain the coffers (500 billion rice program anyone) then you destroy the country and once the damage is done you get voted out.. then you got a 2nd Greece. If that is what you want for Thailand then be my guest.

 

Policies should be sustainable and should be checked, just like they are in for instance the Netherlands. There election programs get checked to see if they are feasible so they can't sell lies or buy votes to get in power with programs that can't be done.

 

The markets do nothing until it is too late.. explain Greece to me.. if the markets did a good job. 

In real democracies you don't need coups you say, but you ignore the fact that the current situation is most definitely not a "real" democracy so what's your solution?

Why must Thaksin get tossed out because democracy is not "real" but Prayuth can stay even though his democracy is far less democratic than Thaksins?

 

Double standard, double standard, double standard.

Right now is not a real democracy yet you accept it.

Before there was imperfect democracy yet you reject it.

What you accept is, by your own measure, worse than what you reject.

There is absolutely zero logic to your beliefs.

 

Do you think Thai military spending rising from 1,984 million dollars (US) in 2005 (Thaksins last year in office) to 6,300 million dollars (US) in 2016 is better or worse than the rice scheme?

Should a country with so much poverty be spending so much on servants and toys for its 1,600 generals

(Is paying for 1,600 Generals in a nation facing no external threats money well spent or is it a form of corruption?)

 

Do you think spending B12,589 per annum on Civil Servants Health Care and just B2,245 per annum on people in the Universal System is fair?

A 600% difference.

If you were a Thai voter and in the Universal System would you be voting Democrat to keep the disparity as it is?

Of course not.

 

The fact is money from the rice scheme went to the poor, now this being Thailand not all of it made it there (as all of the sub money won't make it to China) - but the fact is money still made it to the poor.

Money that would otherwise have been disproportionately spent on the middle class of Bangkok.

That is why there was a coup.

 

It is not sustainable, in this social media day and age to have such a blatant and abusive 2 class system.

Those days are over.

 

Excessive military spending and the dual health care systems are just two of many examples of populist policies that have been lining the pockets of the upper classes for decades.

(the only difference being is that because the policies favour a minority they are not really popular - which is why there can be no democracy).

 

Watch this video: Why the Thai army is so powerful

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Smarter Than You
.

[mtls2005]

I guess a lot of people like the "stability" which all-powerful military leaders provide when they "govern"?

 

I assume the Spanish people adored Franco?

 

Thailand has not been a slouch in field marshal dept. over the years.

[Chris Lawrence]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

There is the need for coups when you got the likes of Thaksin, in real democracies you don't need coups. 

 

I have said it multiple times I want the junta to be accountable too. No different standards here.

 

What I am saying is that if you keep offering people popular policies that drain the coffers (500 billion rice program anyone) then you destroy the country and once the damage is done you get voted out.. then you got a 2nd Greece. If that is what you want for Thailand then be my guest.

 

Policies should be sustainable and should be checked, just like they are in for instance the Netherlands. There election programs get checked to see if they are feasible so they can't sell lies or buy votes to get in power with programs that can't be done.

 

The markets do nothing until it is too late.. explain Greece to me.. if the markets did a good job. 

 

Rob, have a look at Russell Brands video/documentary; a link is below. Search the net and you can see the program.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4323536/

 

Not a fan of Brand, but he does have a go at looking at inequalities in Britain, between the rich and working class.

 

The op is about the further delay of the Thai election. 

 

If you can't get the election date right, you compound the inequality in the system. Plus if you speak up a visitor comes to see you.

 

Your references to Greece and Thaksin are out of place here. Just because you say you want the Government accountable ( thought we get into trouble for saying junta), the General and his crew are not. They passed a special law saying they can't be prosecuted for any wrong doing. They also have article 44.

 

Greece has made an art of going broke as they have done this for thousands of years. Thailand hasn't

 

My point about Brand is that such a sweeping documentary on Thailand would have so much litigation and probably be prosecuted for attacking the most sacred of people, Thailand does not get fully explained. Its a multiple of different standards being manipulated in Thailand at the moment. Some people operate very well in this parallel world of the elite and working class.

[robblok]

Just now, Smarter Than You said:

In real democracies you don't need coups you say, but you ignore the fact that the current situation is most definitely not a "real" democracy so what's your solution?

Why must Thaksin get tossed out because democracy is not "real" but Prayuth can stay even though his democracy is far less democratic than Thaksins?

 

Double standard, double standard, double standard.

Right now is not a real democracy yet you accept it.

Before there was imperfect democracy yet you reject it.

What you accept is, by your own measure, worse than what you reject.

There is absolutely zero logic to your beliefs.

 

Do you think Thai military spending rising from 1,984 million dollars (US) in 2005 (Thaksins last year in office) to 6,300 million dollars (US) in 2016 is better or worse than the rice scheme?

Should a country with so much poverty be spending so much on servants and toys for its 1,600 generals

(Is paying for 1,600 Generals in a nation facing no external threats money well spent or is it a form of corruption?)

 

Do you think spending B12,589 per annum on Civil Servants Health Care and just B2,245 per annum on people in the Universal System is fair?

A 600% difference.

If you were a Thai voter and in the Universal System would you be voting Democrat to keep the disparity as it is?

Of course not.

 

The fact is money from the rice scheme went to the poor, now this being Thailand not all of it made it there (as all of the sub money won't make it to China) - but the fact is money still made it to the poor.

Money that would otherwise have been disproportionately on the middle class of Bangkok.

That is why there was a coup.

 

It is not sustainable, in this social media day and age to have such a blatant and abusive 2 class system.

Those days are over.

 

Excessive military spending and the dual health care systems are just two of many examples of populist policies that have been lining the pockets of the upper classes for decades.

(the only difference being is that because the policies favour a minority they are not really popular - which is why there can be no democracy).

 

Watch this video: Why the Thai army is so powerful

 

Again mate, I said a few times Prayut has to go. So please get it in your mind.. I want him to go too. 

 

You should give me the rise in percentages of the GDP.. your figures are useless this way.. they might impress people with no education but an accountant like me sees straight through crap like that. (mind you I have already condemned the rise in army spending in relation to the GDP in an other topic) Maybe it goes over your head that I dislike Thaksin and I dislike an increase in army spending. I don't blindly follow / like all of the junta's idea's I have gone against many of them. I have yet to see you do the same about the PTP.

 

Yes spending more on civil servant healthcare is fair... you probably don't get it.. its part of their perks.. its part of their salary. They work for it. Its one of the reasons they become civil servants.. if they did not have these benefits the salary would have to be higher to attract them. 

 

The money of the rice scheme did not go to the poor.. there were fake G2G deals done by the highest in YL her office costing the government double the money. Also loads of money went to the rent of storage and in the end the farmers almost got nothing as prices of fertilizer and land rent went up too. It was a failed policy. It also excluded the poorest people as they only grew rice for their own consumption. A fairer scheme would have been if it was given per rai of land with a maximum. This way you would give money to the poor.. but it was harder to skim money that way so they went for the rice program as it was.

 

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

 

Rob, have a look at Russell Brands video/documentary; a link is below. Search the net and you can see the program.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4323536/

 

Not a fan of Brand, but he does have a go at looking at inequalities in Britain, between the rich and working class.

 

The op is about the further delay of the Thai election. 

 

If you can't get the election date right, you compound the inequality in the system. Plus if you speak up a visitor comes to see you.

 

Your references to Greece and Thaksin are out of place here. Just because you say you want the Government accountable ( thought we get into trouble for saying junta), the General and his crew are not. They passed a special law saying they can't be prosecuted for any wrong doing. They also have article 44.

 

Greece has made an art of going broke as they have done this for thousands of years. Thailand hasn't

 

My point about Brand is that such a sweeping documentary on Thailand would have so much litigation and probably be prosecuted for attacking the most sacred of people, Thailand does not get fully explained. Its a multiple of different standards being manipulated in Thailand at the moment. Some people operate very well in this parallel world of the elite and working class.

The generals should be held accountable too.. the fact that they are not does not excuse others to also be not accountable.

 

I have said a few times in other topics.. the junta should stop.. there should be an election. I am all for that  they have had their chance its enough. 

 

Remember everyone said the rice program was  a bad idea.. world bank and all.. YL said she would still do it and there was no corruption.. There was by her own highest ministers with fake G2G deals.. the whole rice scam cost  500 billion.. so yes I want people to be accountable if they have been warned and warned and still ignore it.  The fact is you can buy elections with policies like that and go on and on buying them till Thailand is a second Greece. 

 

So yes I feel a system like there is in Holland where election programs are checked to see if they are economically feasible is a good thing. 

[Chris Lawrence]

Rob, Greece did not pay income tax and spent their time in the sun at parties. Thailand is nothing like Greece.

 

Thailand needs popular policies that help the poor. They need good health programs, education, electricity, water programs, roads and transport infulstucture. Most of this is spent in Bangkok. 6% of GDP is spent in Issan region, with a high majority of low income farmers. Its the lack of wealth distribution and the fact that the new constitution is trying to distribute power to certain individuals, makes a case that Thailand is nothing like Greece.

 

The Generals catch 22 is they have absolved themselves of any wrong doing during this change in Government. This was said from the outset.

 

As said above there are over 1200 Generals, Admirals, and Air Vice Marshals. In Australia we have about 32? Scams happen every day in Thailand. Do they need subs; what happened to the air port bomb detection boxes. It all depends which side of the fence you are on as to if your plans get a green light. The mad monk before leaving office OK'ed 6-8 billion baht spent on upgrading police stations. Flood mitigation programs were stopped by Abhisit and his mate the Governor of Bangkok, because they would affect trade and views. Apirak was removed from his post. Apirak was rewarded by being special advisor to Abhisit.  Apirak was found not guilty of any wrong doing in 2011, whilst having important position in Government.

 

The rice scheme, having its problems is no different to what other scams follow.

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Rob, Greece did not pay income tax and spent their time in the sun at parties. Thailand is nothing like Greece.

 

Thailand needs popular policies that help the poor. They need good health programs, education, electricity, water programs, roads and transport infulstucture. Most of this is spent in Bangkok. 6% of GDP is spent in Issan region, with a high majority of low income farmers. Its the lack of wealth distribution and the fact that the new constitution is trying to distribute power to certain individuals, makes a case that Thailand is nothing like Greece.

 

The Generals catch 22 is they have absolved themselves of any wrong doing during this change in Government. This was said from the outset.

 

As said above there are over 1200 Generals, Admirals, and Air Vice Marshals. In Australia we have about 32? Scams happen every day in Thailand. Do they need subs; what happened to the air port bomb detection boxes. It all depends which side of the fence you are on as to if your plans get a green light. The mad monk before leaving office OK'ed 6-8 billion baht spent on upgrading police stations. Flood mitigation programs were stopped by Abhisit and his mate the Governor of Bangkok, because they would affect trade and views. Apirak was removed from his post. Apirak was rewarded by being special advisor to Abhisit.  Apirak was found not guilty of any wrong doing in 2011, whilst having important position in Government.

 

The rice scheme, having its problems is no different to what other scams follow.

Thailand has a really weak income tax base (look it up if you don't believe me). Problem is the middle class is hit too much by taxes and sees not enough returns on it. I sympathy with them (not with the real rich people). Thailand can be like Greece if it overspends on popular policies YL was well on her way with the rice program and the huge Chinese loan to hide it.

 

A lot is spend in BKK that is right but BKK is also making a lot of money, tax should be spend where it is made. I really hate it when people pay tax only to see it spend on the farmers. It would not be so bad if the farmers wanted to change.. but they never want to change they keep on doing the same old thing and when it fails they hold their hand up. There should only be help if they change and not make them dependent on handouts. YL wants them dependent on handouts because its a voting block she can use. She will never really help them as then they lose their voting block. 

 

Why is it that all the neighboring countries have higher yields per rai and lower costs ? That is because they Thai farmers are allowed to fail and fail again and get helped out. There is no real reason to really change (they are set in their ways). I don't mind helping farmers.. but only if its help that will make them independent. That is something the rice program did not do, plus the poorest farmers were excluded while the richest farmers were not. It was a totally failed policy. 

 

You won't get any argument from me about less army spending and less generals, its something I have always agreed with. Subs, there is not a topic I have agreed with buying them. Normal boats should have been bought to use against illegal fishing.

 

You can want better healthcare.. better education.. we all want it.. but who is going to pay for.. again the middle class.. they are already paying enough. Farmers and others never pay a dime but wage workers in the 711 do they are not rich either. Why would some people have to pay for healthcare (wage workers) and others get it free ? 

 

I liked the idea of the junta to tax houses.. unfortunately they set the free base far to high to include enough homes to make some money. Should have been a lot lower like 5 million maybe or 3 million. 

 

 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

12 hours ago, darksidedog said:

That doesn't matter. Installing a Government that has been democratically elected is way more important. If they do a bad job, they will lose the following election, and that is what makes them accountable, unlike the junta who answer to no one.

 

In theory, yes. In practice, in developed countries with robust justice and check and balance systems in place, probably. In countries that aren't so developed, or don't have those robust institutions in place then elections don't always guarantee accountability as incumbents may try to change the rules to keep themselves in power. Elected governments can act in similar ways to non elected ones. Singapore, Cambodia, spring to mind.

 

The way forward is and will be difficult. Keeping things the same as is, returning to as before, will not move things forward. But those playing the game don't want to change the rules seemingly.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Baerboxer

[Smarter Than You]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Again mate, I said a few times Prayut has to go. So please get it in your mind.. I want him to go too. 

 

You should give me the rise in percentages of the GDP.. your figures are useless this way.. they might impress people with no education but an accountant like me sees straight through crap like that. (mind you I have already condemned the rise in army spending in relation to the GDP in an other topic) Maybe it goes over your head that I dislike Thaksin and I dislike an increase in army spending. I don't blindly follow / like all of the junta's idea's I have gone against many of them. I have yet to see you do the same about the PTP.

 

Yes spending more on civil servant healthcare is fair... you probably don't get it.. its part of their perks.. its part of their salary. They work for it. Its one of the reasons they become civil servants.. if they did not have these benefits the salary would have to be higher to attract them. 

 

The money of the rice scheme did not go to the poor.. there were fake G2G deals done by the highest in YL her office costing the government double the money. Also loads of money went to the rent of storage and in the end the farmers almost got nothing as prices of fertilizer and land rent went up too. It was a failed policy. It also excluded the poorest people as they only grew rice for their own consumption. A fairer scheme would have been if it was given per rai of land with a maximum. This way you would give money to the poor.. but it was harder to skim money that way so they went for the rice program as it was.

 

 

Nothing but constant bleating about the rice scheme.

Lets get some perspective from the respected news magazine The Diplomat shall we?

 

Impractical from the start, Shinawatra’s plan began to have adverse impacts on Thailand’s budget. In its first year, the cost was $4.4 billion, or 1.2 percent of 2012 national GDP. The Thai Development Research Institute (TDRI), an independent think tank, estimates the costs of the first year to have been between $5.9 to $7.1 billion. Official figures of the total cost of the plan have not been released by the government, but estimates range from $8 to $20 billion. Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra?

 

That's right, the cost of the rice scheme was less than Thailand spends on its military.

And lets not forget, the rice scheme lasted but an instant whilst the military have been and will most likely continue to leach of the taxpayer forever more.

 

The rice scheme did not justify a coup, especially when parliament had already been dissolved and an early election called.

How is it that you cannot seem to get these simple and obvious facts into your head?

 

As for logic, well ... here we go again.

Thaksin only wins elections because he buys votes with populist policies ...yet

All the money from the rice scheme was siphoned off and the poor people received nothing.

Which is it? He bought the votes or he didn't?

It can't be both.

 

 

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

That's right, the cost of the rice scheme was less than Thailand spends on its military.

 

Your numbers are way too low but even going with those numbers, better a functioning military than warehouses full of rotting over priced rice no one wants to buy.

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Nothing but constant bleating about the rice scheme.

Lets get some perspective from the respected news magazine The Diplomat shall we?

 

Impractical from the start, Shinawatra’s plan began to have adverse impacts on Thailand’s budget. In its first year, the cost was $4.4 billion, or 1.2 percent of 2012 national GDP. The Thai Development Research Institute (TDRI), an independent think tank, estimates the costs of the first year to have been between $5.9 to $7.1 billion. Official figures of the total cost of the plan have not been released by the government, but estimates range from $8 to $20 billion. Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra?

 

That's right, the cost of the rice scheme was less than Thailand spends on its military.

And lets not forget, the rice scheme lasted but an instant whilst the military have been and will most likely continue to leach of the taxpayer forever more.

 

The rice scheme did not justify a coup, especially when parliament had already been dissolved and an early election called.

How is it that you cannot seem to get these simple and obvious facts into your head?

 

As for logic, well ... here we go again.

Thaksin only wins elections because he buys votes with populist policies ...yet

All the money from the rice scheme was siphoned off and the poor people received nothing.

Which is it? He bought the votes or he didn't?

It can't be both.

 

 

Your smart.. but not too smart.. 

There never was a second election the promise looked good.. the voters never were able to vote on the result.. remember no election afterwards. How it can be 2 things.. quite easy... time. You promise something really good.. they vote for you and then your sipon and the money does not reach the poor. Now had there been a follow up election it could have validated the program (or they forgot about the old lies and the new things that were promised lured them in). Anyway it can be both as I just have proven.

 

Also nicely done by changing the amounts to dollars while we always talk Thai baht.. makes it look less. That other governments have had costlier failed projects does not excuse this one. Its one the favorite things you red guys like to mention. Look that crook is not prosecuted.. why are you prosecuting my crook. Like not catching one criminal means you should not catch an other one.. that is a major flaw in reasoning. Why are you picking on me that murder was not caught and I am .. let me go too. 

 

Quote

Coincidentally, another politically volatile event was occurring. On November 20, 2013, the Constitutional Court ruled that an amendment to the 2007 Constitution – previously passed as a draft and waiting for the King’s signature – did not follow procedural requirements and that the content was at any rate unconstitutional. The most offensive part of the amendment allowed relatives of representatives to become senators, increasing nepotism among the political elites. The Pheu Thai Party rejected the court’s decision and asserted the legality of the amendment, prompting more protestors to take to the streets of Bangkok at the end of November. Eventually, Shinawatra withdrew the draft on December 8 before the King signed it into law, but this appeased neither opposition party nor protestors.

 

I forgot this one.. and the amnesty.. first wanting to clear corruption cases.. and then opening the way for even more nepotism. That was why where were protests.. the amnesty and this. So their own nepotism and corruption have led to the coup. Good to see that in writing here. 

 

As I said if the PTP had served the people and not their Master (and wanting more and more nepotism) the coup would never have had the wide support it had. 

 

Quote

 

If these events were not enough, a “judicial coup” occurred on May 7 2014 that effectively removed Shinawatra from office. This related to the removal of Thawil Pliensri, shortly after Shinawatra’s 2011 election win, as National Security Chief, replacing him with Thaksin’s former brother-in-law, Priewphan Damapong*. The Constitutional Court asserted this move was an abuse of power, since Pliensri had not been negligent in fulfilling his duties. The government was expecting this ruling and the Minister of Commerce became caretaker prime minister the same day.

Clearly, many things led to the protests and political unrest in Thailand. To recap, there is the amnesty bill for Shinawatra’s brother Thaksin, rejection of the Constitutional Court’s declaration that an amendment to the constitution fostering nepotism was unconstitutional, the replacement of Pliensri with Shinawatra’s former brother in law, and Shinawatra’s dereliction of duty to farmers who were owed money under the rice pledging scheme.

 

 

Its not often that someone in a discussion helps the opposition score points.. thanks. i really enjoyed the article that summed up all the misdeeds of the shins. 

 

http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/the-rice-and-fall-of-yingluck-shinawatra/

Edited May 30, 2017 by robblok

[Machiavelli]

11 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

The political landscape is not a real place, meanwhile on the actual real landscape his policies led to the deaths of thousands of Thais...

 

Popular?... You mean like kim jong-un is popular?  I doubt anyone would want to object while Taksin was murdering people on the street, for eg the 84 humans rights protesters I linked to in my post or his police under orders to shoot people on sight.  And, the thais cowering in their houses listening to the sounds of automatic gun fire as drug barons were trying to wipe each other as a direct result of his failed policies.

 

Im just trying to imagine the outcry from some on these boards if Prayuth was stupid and heartless enough to attempt something similar.

 

 

Methinks you aint getting his drift. 

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Your numbers are way too low but even going with those numbers, better a functioning military than warehouses full of rotting over priced rice no one wants to buy.

His numbers are in US dollar while we always talk about baht.. its confusing and makes them look smaller 20 billion dollar is still 700 billion baht. 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

In theory, yes. In practice, in developed countries with robust justice and check and balance systems in place, probably. In countries that aren't so developed, or don't have those robust institutions in place then elections don't always guarantee accountability as incumbents may try to change the rules to keep themselves in power. Elected governments can act in similar ways to non elected ones. Singapore, Cambodia, spring to mind.

 

The way forward is and will be difficult. Keeping things the same as is, returning to as before, will not move things forward. But those playing the game don't want to change the rules seemingly.

I had a conversation with a Thai about this recently.. problem is everyone when they get in power wants their share of the pie.. once they are in power they don't want to change anymore.. they want to reap rewards. 

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, Machiavelli said:

Methinks you aint getting his drift. 

I understand him just fine, but hes plain wrong...thousands of people being murdered is the opposite of peaceful on planet earth.

[onthesoi]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

His numbers are in US dollar while we always talk about baht.. its confusing and makes them look smaller 20 billion dollar is still 700 billion baht. 

I'm aware its dollars but I still think its low.

[Enoon]

8 hours ago, onthesoi said:

Thaksin was PM at the time therefore in charge of the army so that makes him responsable.

 

An elected Thai PM "in charge of the army"?:

 

 

 

[Enoon]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

In theory, yes. In practice, in developed countries with robust justice and check and balance systems in place, probably. In countries that aren't so developed, or don't have those robust institutions in place then elections don't always guarantee accountability as incumbents may try to change the rules to keep themselves in power. Elected governments can act in similar ways to non elected ones. Singapore, Cambodia, spring to mind.

 

The way forward is and will be difficult. Keeping things the same as is, returning to as before, will not move things forward. But those playing the game don't want to change the rules seemingly.

 

Underlying the checks and balances is a commitment by the vast majority within the "polis" to the ideals (philosophy/morality) that demand them.  Demand them to the extent that wars have been fought and revolutions have taken place to establish them.

 

"Developed" countries have a specific history that created, nurtured and strengthened those ideals.

 

Thailand, the "Orient" and most of the world do not have that history, hence they do not (cannot) have those ideals.

 

They are "reverting to type".

 

Whatever the "way" is, it is not forward to a version of what we, from the "developed" world, have created.

 

(Although It will have aircraft, television screens, microwaves and computers..........they like those "things".)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Enoon

[sjaak327]

17 hours ago, robblok said:

That is where you and I differ, if they break the law they should be held accountable in a court of law. Depends a bit how you define bad job.. what if you say lets give the poorest people 500 billion (and increase the debt and deficit year after year by that amount). increasing the debt of the country but the poor loving the policy voting them in again and again. Until there is no more money for the poor and you got a Greece kind of situation.

 

I really feel there should be some mechanisms against popular policies (vote buying) if they damage a country. There should be certain rules that limit the amount of deficit that can be created and so on. 

Yet you seem to support these people. evidently breaking the law is of no concern. Building up a deficit isn't smart, but the current deficit that is being built without any electoral mandate whatsoever simply put previous government in the kindergarten category. 

 

Calling for politicians to be accountable, yet at the same time you support known criminals that have exempted themselves from any accountability from anyone including the judicial system.

 

Prayuth quote about the same kind of people being elected and what to do in such a case is exactly the reason for the coup and any delays. just like you,  he is unable to accept the outcome of free and fair elections, and tries to explain this away with lies and <deleted>. 

 

When will he and his friends be accountable for running Thailand into the ground, or is accountability and justice only applicable to people you happen to hate ?

[Reigntax]

18 hours ago, robblok said:

That is where you and I differ, if they break the law they should be held accountable in a court of law. Depends a bit how you define bad job.. what if you say lets give the poorest people 500 billion (and increase the debt and deficit year after year by that amount). increasing the debt of the country but the poor loving the policy voting them in again and again. Until there is no more money for the poor and you got a Greece kind of situation.

 

I really feel there should be some mechanisms against popular policies (vote buying) if they damage a country. There should be certain rules that limit the amount of deficit that can be created and so on. 

 

You really have no idea of how a government is supposed to function. Take your junta cap off and you may find the the real world is very different to the daily rhetoric in support of your incompentent military.

 

Popular policies?. So you do not believe in cheap or subsidised medical, social security, aged care support, subsidised transport,?

 

If damage to the country is your greatest concern, you should support the reduction, to the bare minimum of all sections of the military as the cost to the economy, performance and damage caused over almost a century of power play and failures far outways any costs incurred by elected governments

[Chou Anou]

News flash: "Fascist military dictator unwilling to give up power."  Wow, who would'a thunk it?

[Chris Lawrence]

9 hours ago, robblok said:

Thailand has a really weak income tax base (look it up if you don't believe me). Problem is the middle class is hit too much by taxes and sees not enough returns on it. I sympathy with them (not with the real rich people). Thailand can be like Greece if it overspends on popular policies YL was well on her way with the rice program and the huge Chinese loan to hide it.

 

A lot is spend in BKK that is right but BKK is also making a lot of money, tax should be spend where it is made. I really hate it when people pay tax only to see it spend on the farmers. It would not be so bad if the farmers wanted to change.. but they never want to change they keep on doing the same old thing and when it fails they hold their hand up. There should only be help if they change and not make them dependent on handouts. YL wants them dependent on handouts because its a voting block she can use. She will never really help them as then they lose their voting block. 

 

Why is it that all the neighboring countries have higher yields per rai and lower costs ? That is because they Thai farmers are allowed to fail and fail again and get helped out. There is no real reason to really change (they are set in their ways). I don't mind helping farmers.. but only if its help that will make them independent. That is something the rice program did not do, plus the poorest farmers were excluded while the richest farmers were not. It was a totally failed policy. 

 

You won't get any argument from me about less army spending and less generals, its something I have always agreed with. Subs, there is not a topic I have agreed with buying them. Normal boats should have been bought to use against illegal fishing.

 

You can want better healthcare.. better education.. we all want it.. but who is going to pay for.. again the middle class.. they are already paying enough. Farmers and others never pay a dime but wage workers in the 711 do they are not rich either. Why would some people have to pay for healthcare (wage workers) and others get it free ? 

 

I liked the idea of the junta to tax houses.. unfortunately they set the free base far to high to include enough homes to make some money. Should have been a lot lower like 5 million maybe or 3 million. 

 

 

 

 

Rob, people do pay do pay taxes. When the go to the shops and buy petrol, income workers. 

 

Social service programs are a economies safety net to help the country.

 

Your sympathies with the middle class may be warranted; however the elites of Thailand, are they contributing their fare share. There are also the tax dodgers in both these groups, the pineapple industry and fishing vessels to name a few.

 

But have a watch of Brands video. It has a broad perspective on paying your fair share and the difference in wages paid; although it concentrates on the English system. Easy to see how it would relate to most country situations around the world.

 

You are having a battle with STY at the moment. I liked the point he made:

 

Impractical from the start, Shinawatra’s plan began to have adverse impacts on Thailand’s budget. In its first year, the cost was $4.4 billion, or 1.2 percent of 2012 national GDP. The Thai Development Research Institute (TDRI), an independent think tank, estimates the costs of the first year to have been between $5.9 to $7.1 billion. Official figures of the total cost of the plan have not been released by the government, but estimates range from $8 to $20 billion. Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra?

 

Its from another perspective other than that was produced by the new Government. If it has the base of truth why was Mr T and Ms Y persecuted? 

 

Unfortunately the farmer is loosing their voice in politics. The new constitution is seeing to this. But I put it too u Rob that Thailand was built via its ability to produce from the land. Maybe and just maybe, this is why the General is pushing back the election timetable, as he hasn't got all the numbers.

 

This won't be the last coup in Thailand.

 

 

[SABloke]

The only way I feel future coups in this country will be avoided is if a junta (present or future) is removed violently. I imagine the lower ranks would think twice if they saw Big P and Fat P lynched on live TV.

 

 

 

 

[robblok]

5 hours ago, Reigntax said:

 

You really have no idea of how a government is supposed to function. Take your junta cap off and you may find the the real world is very different to the daily rhetoric in support of your incompentent military.

 

Popular policies?. So you do not believe in cheap or subsidised medical, social security, aged care support, subsidised transport,?

 

If damage to the country is your greatest concern, you should support the reduction, to the bare minimum of all sections of the military as the cost to the economy, performance and damage caused over almost a century of power play and failures far outways any costs incurred by elected governments

I believe in popular policies as long as they benefit everyone. Why is it that farmers get so much money and are able to fail all the time and get bailed out but nong who starts a coffee shop when she fails is left to solve it herself ? Has it something to do that the farmers are a big voting block. Also why are the solutions not made to change the farmers to be self sufficient not depended on handouts.. maybe because otherwise the voting block is broken ?

 

Also my biggest gripe is that the Thai tax base is so small and its the middle class who has to pay for it all. I don't care much for rich people (the really rich ones). They can pay but the middle class.. salary workers get screwed over all the time paying for the failure of others while seeing little back of the taxes they pay. When the poor are such a large voting block that they overrule those who actually pay the taxes (middle class) its a bad thing. Sorry my opinion, I have always believed in people who work hard and take risks and study should be rewarded.. not taxed all the time. I also believe that those who fail all the time should not be helped all the time. There is a time that those need to change.

 

You should read this an other topics.. I support.. hell I want the military spending to be less. I think the subs are crazy and the fact that military spending in a % to gdp went up is a bad thing. 

[Smarter Than You]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

Your smart.. but not too smart.. 

There never was a second election the promise looked good.. the voters never were able to vote on the result.. remember no election afterwards. How it can be 2 things.. quite easy... time. You promise something really good.. they vote for you and then your sipon and the money does not reach the poor. Now had there been a follow up election it could have validated the program (or they forgot about the old lies and the new things that were promised lured them in). Anyway it can be both as I just have proven.

Let me get this right, according to you, the Shinawatras cunning plan was - 

1. Form a political party and put forward populist policies to buy the votes of the ignorant poor masses

2. Once they win the election, enact the populist policies, but skim and steal so much that nothing makes it to the poor

but, that doesn't matter because step three is ...

3. Make sure the military conducts a coup so that you don't have to face another election.

 

IDIOCY!

 

8 hours ago, robblok said:

Also nicely done by changing the amounts to dollars while we always talk Thai baht.. makes it look less. That other governments have had costlier failed projects does not excuse this one. Its one the favorite things you red guys like to mention. Look that crook is not prosecuted.. why are you prosecuting my crook. Like not catching one criminal means you should not catch an other one.. that is a major flaw in reasoning. Why are you picking on me that murder was not caught and I am .. let me go too. 

Again, in your efforts to try and twist falsehoods into facts to support your Junta, you miss the point being made by the Diplomat.

 

Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects.

 

Countless examples of governments making much bigger and much worse mistakes than PTP - yet none of them face coups.

The rice scheme was not an existential threat to Thailand - it was a run of the mill cock-up.

The rice scheme did not justify a coup.

 

The cost of the program is not the main reason why Shinawatra eventually faced impeachment.

 

Can you understand that? 

 

8 hours ago, robblok said:

 

As I said if the PTP had served the people and not their Master (and wanting more and more nepotism) the coup would never have had the wide support it had. 

 

Who are the military serving now - their masters!

Why do the masses still so overwhelmingly support PTP - because PTP served them much, much better than any political party ever has.

 

If the coup had wide support why not just contest the election and win?

The fact is the coup didn't have wide support - it doesn't have wide support now.

There are no elections because the coup and its backers to not have the support of the majority of the Thai people

Again, why is so hard for you to grasp this simple and obvious fact?

The coup and the Junta are not popular, that is why there are no elections.

 

8 hours ago, robblok said:

 

Its not often that someone in a discussion helps the opposition score points.. thanks. i really enjoyed the article that summed up all the misdeeds of the shins. 

 

http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/the-rice-and-fall-of-yingluck-shinawatra/

Score points?

The article steps out just how messy the process was to get rid of the elected government.

How all the different apparatuses of the permanent state had to come together to get their coup against the peoples government.

All because there was no valid reason for a coup.

 

Are the Shinawatra's and PTP perfect - no they are not.

Was the coup justified - no it wasn't.