Bad maintenance

[smutcakes]

4 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

No, because the developer does not have a voting majority as I explained. By law no one co-owner may outvote all the others put together.

 

As far as I know the building is a condominium from the moment it is registered as such and the chanotes are issued. Then an initial GM should be called within a set time frame and a committee voted in, and rules and fees decided upon, and accounts presented etc. And subsequently the GM is repeated yearly and accounts presented monthly, and a minimum number of committee meetings also need to be held each year. It seems like in this instance the developer has been avoiding doing this, probably for the obvious reasons.

You keep on repeating this, but in practical terms they do have a majority. Even if they have their voting decreased to 10% if the other Co-owners =10% of the units. You, I and the developer know all they have to do is find one person to vote in favor of them and they have above 50%, or transfer one of their holding to a director, company, friend to vote outside the developers main holding.

 

So however much you want to keep saying that they dont have the majority, for all practical purposes they do.

[KittenKong]

15 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

You keep on repeating this, but in practical terms they do have a majority. Even if they have their voting decreased to 10% if the other Co-owners =10% of the units. You, I and the developer know all they have to do is find one person to vote in favor of them and they have above 50%, or transfer one of their holding to a director, company, friend to vote outside the developers main holding.

This could certainly happen in some cases where many units have been sold but is not so likely, I think, in the specific case described here.

Either way it doesnt affect the law per se.

[funandsuninbangkok]

Your money is gone. Walk away. Lesson learned. Rent in Thailand. Invest offshore. 

 

Get on with your life

[lkn]

1 hour ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Your money is gone. Walk away. Lesson learned. Rent in Thailand. Invest offshore. 

I must have seen dozens of posts from you basically repeating this same old mantra, which makes me curious, what exactly is your motivation for all these posts?

 

Do you actually think that you comment is helpful to the OP? Do you think anyone else reading this thread has not already read this “advice” a million times before?

[funandsuninbangkok]

13 hours ago, lkn said:

I must have seen dozens of posts from you basically repeating this same old mantra, which makes me curious, what exactly is your motivation for all these posts?

 

Do you actually think that you comment is helpful to the OP? Do you think anyone else reading this thread has not already read this “advice” a million times before?

Yes I think it is helpful.

 

 

he can move along or, perhaps like you?, he can hold up in a <deleted> condo full of Chinesetourists  with a green pool and no elevators and dream of selling. 

 

For me, life is too short. When I screw up, admit it, fix it, learn and move on. 

 

Truth is condo market is a mess. Thousands of unsold units, getting worst, and nothing but the absolute best deals are moving. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by funandsuninbangkok

[smutcakes]

29 minutes ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Yes I think it is helpful.

 

 

he can move along or, perhaps like you?, he can hold up in a <deleted> condo full of Chinesetourists  with a green pool and no elevators and dream of selling. 

 

For me, life is too short. When I screw up, admit it, fix it, learn and move on. 

 

Truth is condo market is a mess. Thousands of unsold units, getting worst, and nothing but the absolute best deals are moving. 

You should not buy pound a penny crap condos then. If you buy quality your investment is sound, like anywhere. If you cannot afford to buy quality, rent.

[funandsuninbangkok]

36 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

You should not buy pound a penny crap condos then. If you buy quality your investment is sound, like anywhere. If you cannot afford to buy quality, rent.

Sorry but I disagree. 

 

There re are far better returns to be had in other investments outside of Thailand. When you figure maintenance, insurance, fees, transfer costs, opportunity cost, plus the loss of convenience and including capital appreciation   buying in Thailand loses every time. 

 

 

 

Rent in Thailand. Invest offshore. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by funandsuninbangkok

[smutcakes]

Just now, funandsuninbangkok said:

Sorry but I disagree. 

 

There re are far better returns to be had in other investments outside of Thailand. When you figure maintenance, insurance, fees, transfer costs, opportunity cost, plus the loss of conscience  buying in Thailand loses every time. 

 

Rent in Thailand. Invest offshore. 

There are better opportunities every day, do you change your investments every day? Many people do not have the time, inclination to research different investment models, especially in other countries.

 

There will always be better returns somewhere, and i suppose that what professional investors search for. Most people do not fall into this bracket though, and many investors are cautious and stick with asset classes they know and understand, like Real Estate. I am based in BKK, It is preferable for me to invest in real estate here, than in another country, despite the returns being less.

 

Maybe if i was retired and spent my time traveling around to many countries that could change, but for most people they are not retired and don't have the time to do this.

[KittenKong]

56 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

You should not buy pound a penny crap condos then.

 

Can a condo costing 4MB and 100kB/sqm really be described as "pound a penny"? I dont think so. Yet these are apparently not easy to sell where I am.

 

For me "pound a penny" condos would be the 25-30sqm ones. They dont sell well either.

[smutcakes]

42 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Can a condo costing 4MB and 100kB/sqm really be described as "pound a penny"? I dont think so. Yet these are apparently not easy to sell where I am.

 

For me "pound a penny" condos would be the 25-30sqm ones. They dont sell well either.

In my personal opinion yes. There would never be any value in units like that and smaller as quite simply the market of people who want to/can (family numbers permitting) live in something that small for that amount of money is relatively small.

[funandsuninbangkok]

6 hours ago, smutcakes said:

There are better opportunities every day, do you change your investments every day? Many people do not have the time, inclination to research different investment models, especially in other countries.

 

There will always be better returns somewhere, and i suppose that what professional investors search for. Most people do not fall into this bracket though, and many investors are cautious and stick with asset classes they know and understand, like Real Estate. I am based in BKK, It is preferable for me to invest in real estate here, than in another country, despite the returns being less.

 

Maybe if i was retired and spent my time traveling around to many countries that could change, but for most people they are not retired and don't have the time to do this.

You can open a brokerage account with 100 dollars and trade real estate or other investments online. Simple , cheap, and much better costs and total return. 

 

Condos in Thailand depreciate. Not even close to being an investment 

[smutcakes]

5 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

You can open a brokerage account with 100 dollars and trade real estate or other investments online. Simple , cheap, and much better costs and total return. 

 

Condos in Thailand depreciate. Not even close to being an investment 

And online investents can go down in value unless you do your research properly. If you do your research properly in condos in Thailand they are not depreciating assets. 

[funandsuninbangkok]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

And online investents can go down in value unless you do your research properly. If you do your research properly in condos in Thailand they are not depreciating assets. 

Well I suppose if you always "do things properly " you will never have a problem, even in Thai real estate. 

 

But it seems to me now that stock markets all over are at all time highs. Yet these forums are full of condo owners complaining they can't sell thier units for what they paid / the maintenance is crap  / the buildings are either empty or full of noisy whores and tourist renting nightly. 

 

Renting in Bangkok allows you live for about 1 to 3 percent per year of the replacement value and you avoid maintenance costs and common dues, transaction costs / opportunity costs , etc. 

 

And you can move if it turns out your neibors  are crazy or drug dealers. Oh and if the next time they start shooting it gets ugly, well let's not think about that if your an owner 

 

Buy if you must buy renting is better. 

 

 

[lkn]

16 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Yes I think it is helpful.

 

he can move along or, perhaps like you?, he can hold up in a <deleted> condo full of Chinesetourists  with a green pool and no elevators and dream of selling. 

I really doubt that the OP found your post helpful, and if you honestly think there is value in just repeating that people should not buy in Thailand, even when people who have already bought are seeking specific advice about how to handle their situation, then you are probably a lost cause.

 

For the OP, he probably is not willing to just walk away from a condo that has probably cost a few million baht, nor is this his only option.

 

He mentions green water in the swimming pool: Big deal, change the water, and get a guy to maintain it for 3,000 baht/month, adding the proper algaecide so it doesn’t turn green again! The elevator, that’s 5-6,000 baht/month paid to a professional elevator service company and they’ll service it regularly, handle all repairs including spare parts etc.

 

So we’re looking at less than 10,000 baht/month to fix the problems he’s talking about. This is why he needs to actually get hold of the income and expenditure reports to see if management fee is paid, and if so, where it goes. It might just be that the developer and/or JPM is incompetent.

 

And as for you insinuating that I am in similar situation: I did not buy cheap, I did due diligence, and I am very happy with the resulting apartment, much much better than anything I could rent, as I did many customizations and upgrades. It did turn out that the JPM had no clue about how to do proper bookkeeping (and many other things), but not a problem though, I just joined the board, became the treasurer, and now the accountant reports directly to me instead of the JPM, and I check that everything is done correctly (including sending proper invoices to the developer so that they pay their share for the unsold units).

 

Sure, it’s more work than if I was renting, but as indicated above, there is absolutely nothing available on the rental market that suits me as well as this condo I bought.

 

If you are on a budget, go ahead and rent, and only buy condos as “investments” if you know what you’re doing: It’s a home, not a security!

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, lkn said:

He mentions green water in the swimming pool: Big deal, change the water, and get a guy to maintain it for 3,000 baht/month, adding the proper algaecide so it doesn’t turn green again! The elevator, that’s 5-6,000 baht/month paid to a professional elevator service company and they’ll service it regularly, handle all repairs including spare parts etc.

 

So we’re looking at less than 10,000 baht/month to fix the problems he’s talking about.

 

In my condo the pool maintenance costs 25,000B/month (not including repairs) and the elevator people barely even get out of bed for 5,000B which would not include the cost of any parts anyway. Though admittedly there are probably a lot of kickbacks in those prices in my building.

 

Given that the OP seems to only have a handful of other co-owners to share the cost with (even assuming that they all want to chip in) I suspect that it would not take very long for him to spend more on those monthly fees than his condo is worth. So unless he can get the costs shared by all co-owners including the developer then he would indeed be better off dumping the unit at a loss.

 

[trogers]

10 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

In my condo the pool maintenance costs 25,000B/month (not including repairs) and the elevator people barely even get out of bed for 5,000B which would not include the cost of any parts anyway. Though admittedly there are probably a lot of kickbacks in those prices in my building.

 

Given that the OP seems to only have a handful of other co-owners to share the cost with (even assuming that they all want to chip in) I suspect that it would not take very long for him to spend more on those monthly fees than his condo is worth. So unless he can get the costs shared by all co-owners including the developer then he would indeed be better off dumping the unit at a loss.

 

You mean dumping it at a price to cover the down payment for another condo unit with an active community...

 

That developer should buy back those 6 units and deregister the building as a condominium, and convert it into a serviced apartment project.

Edited June 14, 2017 by trogers

[lkn]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Given that the OP seems to only have a handful of other co-owners to share the cost with (even assuming that they all want to chip in) I suspect that it would not take very long for him to spend more on those monthly fees than his condo is worth

I of course did not intend for his co-owners (excl. developer) to bear all the costs, simply pointing out that it’s not like it would cost a fortune to get the maintenance done.

 

And unless your building includes a water park, I think you’re being ripped off :)

 

To the OP: Please go to your developer and ask who is JPM then ask the JPM for meeting minutes and financial report from the last AGM. This would be a very good start to figure out what’s going on with your building, if a committee has been formed, who was elected, how much management fee was paid, what it was spent on, etc.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, trogers said:

That developer should buy back those 6 units and deregister the building as a condominium, and convert it into a serviced apartment project.

 

He should indeed. But it is very unlikely to happen unless he is forced into doing it.

[smutcakes]

10 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

Well I suppose if you always "do things properly " you will never have a problem, even in Thai real estate. 

 

But it seems to me now that stock markets all over are at all time highs. Yet these forums are full of condo owners complaining they can't sell thier units for what they paid / the maintenance is crap  / the buildings are either empty or full of noisy whores and tourist renting nightly. 

 

Renting in Bangkok allows you live for about 1 to 3 percent per year of the replacement value and you avoid maintenance costs and common dues, transaction costs / opportunity costs , etc. 

 

And you can move if it turns out your neibors  are crazy or drug dealers. Oh and if the next time they start shooting it gets ugly, well let's not think about that if your an owner 

 

Buy if you must buy renting is better. 

 

 

Stock markets are at high levels, so probably not a great time to invest. Can you explain what you mean by "Renting in Bangkok allows you live for about 1 to 3 percent per year of the replacement value"?

 

You make such massive sweeping generalizations on everything. Of course on a farang website with a real estate section there will be people complaining about real estate, what do you expect. And as you would expect people who bough 20-40 sqm units in Pattaya where there is massive oversupply and a relatively small demographic of buyers are going to have trouble shifting them, and the price is probably not going up. Thats hardly rocket science, but you are talking about one small micro sector of the Thai real estate market.

 

Whether renting or buying is better, it is up to each persons circumstances. I am not sure what you are trying to do or prove by coming on here and preaching that renting is the only way to go, when clearly for many it is not. I suspect you have made ill advised investment decisions, which are easily done when you don't understand the market, but that does not make it the incorrect decision for everyone.

[KittenKong]

40 minutes ago, lkn said:

I of course did not intend for his co-owners (excl. developer) to bear all the costs, simply pointing out that it’s not like it would cost a fortune to get the maintenance done.

 

And unless your building includes a water park, I think you’re being ripped off :)

 

There is some padding (anyone who thinks otherwise in Thailand is simply a fool) but the quotes do correspond with what other buildings pay other companies for similar pools and lifts.

[funandsuninbangkok]

8 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Stock markets are at high levels, so probably not a great time to invest. Can you explain what you mean by "Renting in Bangkok allows you live for about 1 to 3 percent per year of the replacement value"?

 

You make such massive sweeping generalizations on everything. Of course on a farang website with a real estate section there will be people complaining about real estate, what do you expect. And as you would expect people who bough 20-40 sqm units in Pattaya where there is massive oversupply and a relatively small demographic of buyers are going to have trouble shifting them, and the price is probably not going up. Thats hardly rocket science, but you are talking about one small micro sector of the Thai real estate market.

 

Whether renting or buying is better, it is up to each persons circumstances. I am not sure what you are trying to do or prove by coming on here and preaching that renting is the only way to go, when clearly for many it is not. I suspect you have made ill advised investment decisions, which are easily done when you don't understand the market, but that does not make it the incorrect decision for everyone.

I am including Bangkok in my comments and I think they are clear and need no further clarification 

 

Your suspicions are false. My investments have done very well and pay for my 320sq meter furnished apartment in Central Sukhumvit which I rent for 80,000 baht a month. 

 

Oh and they change the light bulbs for me when they burn out. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by funandsuninbangkok

[mogandave]

Stock markets are at high levels, so probably not a great time to invest. Can you explain what you mean by "Renting in Bangkok allows you live for about 1 to 3 percent per year of the replacement value"?
 
You make such massive sweeping generalizations on everything. Of course on a farang website with a real estate section there will be people complaining about real estate, what do you expect. And as you would expect people who bough 20-40 sqm units in Pattaya where there is massive oversupply and a relatively small demographic of buyers are going to have trouble shifting them, and the price is probably not going up. Thats hardly rocket science, but you are talking about one small micro sector of the Thai real estate market.
 
Whether renting or buying is better, it is up to each persons circumstances. I am not sure what you are trying to do or prove by coming on here and preaching that renting is the only way to go, when clearly for many it is not. I suspect you have made ill advised investment decisions, which are easily done when you don't understand the market, but that does not make it the incorrect decision for everyone.

Is not real estate generally at an all time high?

Doing research is no guarantee whether buying condos or equities.

[smutcakes]

11 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Is not real estate generally at an all time high?

Doing research is no guarantee whether buying condos or equities.

Yes, but in some sectors many believe there is still growth potential. Buy quality and its pretty safe investment the world over, Thailand included. Your not going to generally get large cap value growth unless you are lucky, but you will get small growth and a steady return for little risk.

 

Research helps, but any investment has risk, but you would hope being knowledge about what you are investing in definitely allows for more informed decision. Investing in stocks, currencies etc is far more precarious, especially if you are a part time investor.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

Research helps, but any investment has risk, but you would hope being knowledge about what you are investing in definitely allows for more informed decision. Investing in stocks, currencies etc is far more precarious, especially if you are a part time investor.

 

Buying an index tracker fund requires little knowledge and no effort. Little risk either over the medium-long term. And it is 100% liquid. Purchase costs are minimal and ownership costs can be zero.

My tracker funds pay between 3-6% tax-free and have shown constant and very significant capital appreciation since their inception over the medium-long term. I never need to devote any time to them, not have they ever defaulted on their payments or produced no income (though the amount does vary).

I have also invested in individual stocks and whilst some have done well others have not, and in retrospect it would have been a lot simpler and not much less beneficial to have bought more trackers instead. My future investments will be more on those lines.

 

Other good investments were property in the UK and Europe which produced similar income, and capital returns of 400% over 25 years whilst remaining quite liquid all that time. I dont see this in Thailand. In fact all I see here is stagnation, oversupply and high purchase/sale costs. Any gains to be made in Thai property seem to be more to do with currency fluctuation than anything else, and I have little faith in a currency that is considered illiquid and on a par with Russian roubles and Ukrainian Hryvnia by some international currency exchange companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolut#Fees

[smutcakes]

32 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Buying an index tracker fund requires little knowledge and no effort. Little risk either over the medium-long term. And it is 100% liquid. Purchase costs are minimal and ownership costs can be zero.

My tracker funds pay between 3-6% tax-free and have shown constant and very significant capital appreciation since their inception over the medium-long term. I never need to devote any time to them, not have they ever defaulted on their payments or produced no income (though the amount does vary).

I have also invested in individual stocks and whilst some have done well others have not, and in retrospect it would have been a lot simpler and not much less beneficial to have bought more trackers instead. My future investments will be more on those lines.

 

Other good investments were property in the UK and Europe which produced similar income, and capital returns of 400% over 25 years whilst remaining quite liquid all that time. I dont see this in Thailand. In fact all I see here is stagnation, oversupply and high purchase/sale costs. Any gains to be made in Thai property seem to be more to do with currency fluctuation than anything else, and I have little faith in a currency that is considered illiquid and on a par with Russian roubles and Ukrainian Hryvnia by some international currency exchange companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolut#Fees

The tracker sounds good, and 6% low risk with very significant capital appreciation sounds great. I suppose i just am more comfortable with something i can see and understand. I am happy with relatively low returns in something i deem a safe investment, which the property i invest in i believe is. There is stagnation, oversupply in some sectors, but they are not the ones i would invest in anyway.

 

I am a firm believer in only investing in properties i would be happy to live in myself, should everything go pear shaped.

 

Just edit to add, in the UK these days, if its an investment property, is there not 3% stamp duty? So costs in the UK once you take legals, surveying fees into account probably run up to 5%

Edited June 15, 2017 by smutcakes

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, smutcakes said:

I am a firm believer in only investing in properties i would be happy to live in myself, should everything go pear shaped.

 

Very wise. I would also never buy any property I was not prepared to live in.

 

 

4 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Just edit to add, in the UK these days, if its an investment property, is there not 3% stamp duty? So costs in the UK once you take legals, surveying fees into account probably run up to 5%

 

Yes, the UK government, having way over-promoted and over-encouraged buy-to-let for many years is now backtracking and changing the rules to make it less desirable. Other costs though are quite reasonable when compared to here (agents fees, rental tax). And there is still plenty of scope for buying under the stamp duty threshold altogether for non-rental properties, so that is still possible to achieve for barely a couple of percent in fees compared to perhaps 10% if you take into account agents fees and transfer taxes here, even on the most modest shoe-boxes.

My properties were not bought for investment and were all bought decades ago anyway, so the issue did not really apply to me. I've always liked the idea of owning properties that I can both live in and extract an income from and this has served me very well.

 

[theguyfromanotherforum]

You can open a brokerage account with 100 dollars and trade real estate or other investments online. Simple , cheap, and much better costs and total return. 
 
Condos in Thailand depreciate. Not even close to being an investment 

What brokerage account can I open as a non resident? Examples please.



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[mogandave]

What brokerage account can I open as a non resident? Examples please.



Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

It depends on what country you want to open the account in.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Any country will do where the brokerage is not a fly by night operation.

[mogandave]

I opened a Fidelity account and and I am not a resident of the US. I am a US citizen.


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