Non Immigrant O

[LivinLOS]

Anyone played with the definition of relatives ??

Like visiting a farang relative living in Thailand.

Or visiting my sister in law (wife died) ?? Or nieces etc.

Just curious on if they have a definition of family and if my sister in law is family (she is to me whatever)..

Hi LivinLOS,

The official text does not use the word "relative".

See §7.18 of http://www.lawyer.th.com/National_Police_O...er_Oct_2006.pdf

In case of being a member of family of the person who has residence in Thailand (Only for the father, mother, marriage couple, ordinary child, adopted child, or a child of the marriage couple)

An other small "innocent" question about this Non-O "for visiting friends" :

Does somebody know if the UK Hull Consulate - by exemple - delivers such a visa to non-UK people ?

I am a French and it's a big NO WAY in all french consulates, and in the Monaco consulate too.

Pattaya46

In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there' so if a French person was living in England (even temporarily ) I suspect he would.. so a UK address and a polite email might help you.

He also has no problem dealing with UK citizens not in the UK at time of application.

[Mahout Angrit]

In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there' so if a French person was living in England (even temporarily ) I suspect he would.. so a UK address and a polite email might help you.

While I know personal contact is the best way to find out it's not what it says on their website http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/pdfs/Ab%20%20...tion%20Pack.pdf

it says 4th line from the bottom "Finally please understand that you are most unlikely to be able to obtain a Non Immigrant Visa with MULITPLE entries anywhere other than your country of residence"

He also has no problem dealing with UK citizens not in the UK at time of application.

How does that work? surely he wont post a passport between countries and if the applicant doesn't have his passport how does he get to UK to collect it? (Ah I remember you have two passports!)

[LivinLOS]

In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there' so if a French person was living in England (even temporarily ) I suspect he would.. so a UK address and a polite email might help you.

While I know personal contact is the best way to find out it's not what it says on their website http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/pdfs/Ab%20%20...tion%20Pack.pdf

it says 4th line from the bottom "Finally please understand that you are most unlikely to be able to obtain a Non Immigrant Visa with MULITPLE entries anywhere other than your country of residence"

He also has no problem dealing with UK citizens not in the UK at time of application.

How does that work? surely he wont post a passport between countries and if the applicant doesn't have his passport how does he get to UK to collect it? (Ah I remember you have two passports!)

But as a French person has no problems being resident in the UK without visa's.. Then if they had a UK address they could be 'resident' in the UK when they applied..

All very easy to be resident in other Euro countries..

[girlx]

as i said i would, i checked into the legality of my situation, and i received a response from Sunbelt today. i referenced the link which i posted ewarlier on here where Sunbelt had been looking into this issue for someone else. as to my working in Thailand for companies in the US, it says:

Hello X,

Sorry for the late reply, our offices have been closed until today for the national new years holidays.

It is not necessary that you have a work permit to conduct this type of ‘remote access’ activity in Thailand . As Im sure you will note in the response, the labor department did not say that you would not require a work permit (technically), their response was that it was untraceable, therefore they would not pursue such a matter.

I would suggest applying for a non-immigrant B visa.

FYI...

[lopburi3]

As I recall the Sunbelt story it was more to the tune of "we always knock first" so "if the computer is not on the work site we would not know about it".

well then i will contact Sunbelt and ask them to complete the investigation so all of us will know once and for all.

as i said i would, i checked into the legality of my situation, and i received a response from Sunbelt today. i referenced the link which i posted ewarlier on here where Sunbelt had been looking into this issue for someone else. as to my working in Thailand for companies in the US, it says:

Hello X,

Sorry for the late reply, our offices have been closed until today for the national new years holidays.

It is not necessary that you have a work permit to conduct this type of ‘remote access’ activity in Thailand . As Im sure you will note in the response, the labor department did not say that you would not require a work permit (technically), their response was that it was untraceable, therefore they would not pursue such a matter.

I would suggest applying for a non-immigrant B visa.

FYI...

And that seems to be pretty much as I told you 3 pages ago. Technically not legal but no way to know.

[girlx]

which is what i was saying too- it is a gray area. the labor department would not likely prosecute anyone in this situation.

[sriracha john]

Thai Visa

referenced thread bumped while waiting for the definitive answer...

[girlx]

thanks- i am curious too whether the OP of that thread bothered to carry through and get an exemption letter.

[LivinLOS]

as i said i would, i checked into the legality of my situation, and i received a response from Sunbelt today. i referenced the link which i posted ewarlier on here where Sunbelt had been looking into this issue for someone else. as to my working in Thailand for companies in the US, it says:

Hello X,

Sorry for the late reply, our offices have been closed until today for the national new years holidays.

It is not necessary that you have a work permit to conduct this type of ‘remote access’ activity in Thailand . As Im sure you will note in the response, the labor department did not say that you would not require a work permit (technically), their response was that it was untraceable, therefore they would not pursue such a matter.

I would suggest applying for a non-immigrant B visa.

FYI...

So you found you 'checked the legality of the situation' and they cannot catch you breaking the law so you decide that this is not breaking the law..

Impress us all and get a WP exemption. Otherwise as we said pages and pages back, you can fly under the radar but your breaking the law.

You live in Thailand, you should form a company and pay income tax to be 'legal'..

[LivinLOS]

which is what i was saying too- it is a gray area. the labor department would not likely prosecute anyone in this situation.

How is it a grey area ??

You live here.. You work here.. You do not have a work permit exemption..

If I drive on a road that has no police on it at 200 kph it doesnt make the speed limit 200kph however much I want to to. I am breaking the law. Its not a grey area it is an area where it is difficult for them to catch and prosecute you.

You asked how to do this legally.. You dont like the answer so you keep saying its unclear.

[girlx]

the answer is that the labor department will not prosecute someone in this position. they have actually said no work permit is necessary. seems to me like you are the one who doesn't like the answer.

[ltdknowledge]

Thai Narak

I can only speak as a UK national and getting a non imm "O" from Hull is absolutely no prob for a Brit. Obviously, I have to be in the UK, but can send passport by post and is always back 2 days later.

What nationality are you?

Is there a benefit in a non imm O visa. Just here people asking about that. I have it although i stupidly didn't realise until i checked last week as i though i had a tourist visa with multiple entries (4) I received mine from Hull too.

Edited January 4, 2007 by ltdknowledge

[LivinLOS]

the answer is that the labor department will not prosecute someone in this position. they have actually said no work permit is necessary. seems to me like you are the one who doesn't like the answer.

No they said it was untraceable (according to Sunbelt info you posted) not that no work permit is necessary.. If no work permit was necessary there would be a work permit exemption.. Please post when you have one (it sure would make many people very happy to get long stay visa's, pay no taxes here, AND not need a WP) until then you are working in Thailand without a WP or an exemption.

Without that exemption the rules are being broken and pretending otherwise is being blind to the truth and not accurate advise to post online.

Of course many rules can be broken and are not enforced, Thailand is a country with very selective enforcement on many issues but it doesnt then make them legal solutions to the problem, only gives ways to break the laws.

[loong]

Is there a benefit in a non imm O visa. Just here people asking about that. I have it although i stupidly didn't realise until i checked last week as i though i had a tourist visa with multiple entries (4) I received mine from Hull too.

The benefits are

Tourist Visa - 60 days stay for each entry into Thailand

Non Imm - 90 Days

Tourist Visa - Has to be used within 3 months of issue (Single) or 6 months (more than 1 entry)

Non imm multi - Lasts for one year from date of issue

[Sunny Valentine]

Livinlos, you might be right assuming that the work discussed here is illegal by the written standards of Thai law.

But when you look into the definition of work (sorry seems I don't find the reference now ...) it clearly states that all working actifity, being paid or unpaid, is only allowed with a work permit. There are no exceptions made for actions like gardening your own private garden, or similar daily routines performed by most of us, which exercise an action others are paid for. Take driving a car or motorbike: It is a profession itself (so to exercise this profession you should look into a work permit), and the law specifically stipulates that it does not matter whether you are paid or not. Do you now suggest one gets a company in orde to get a WP to drive his bike?

Another flaw I see in your argumentation is that the process of starting a company will most likely (unless in this specific case where the OP is US citizen and can have it under his name under the amity treaty) involve Thai proxies, who are more likely than not not really financially or otherwise involved in the business, therefore highly likely illegal. I am not sure whether the hiring of Thai staff on paper is strictly legal, either. And, according to a lawyer I spoke to, the fact that this company would not participate in dealings in the Thai economy might create some more shades of grey.

In a related matter: Do you remember the discuaasions about the then new law concerning display of cigarettes at salespoint more than a year ago? One big chain (7/11) opposed against it, their lawyers pointed out that by not displaying their merchandise they would break a different law that makes it obligatory to display the merchandise .... This discussion was stopped once the minister involved stated they will not enforce this older law here .... Mind you,he did not say something along the lines of "We will rewrite the old law to fit in with the new requirements."

his was another fine example of the legal "fcuked if you do fcuked if you don't" approach some ill-thought Thai laws implement. The OPs situation is similar, he got a similar answer from the competent authorities. Case closed.

As long as Thai authorities refuse to review and rewrite their laws in the view of more recent developments, and rectify flaws and legal conflicts, the situation will remain grey, with no strictly legal possibility to resolve it.

Sunny

Edited January 4, 2007 by Sunny Valentine

[Tod Daniels]

It is refreshing to read the "holier than thou" posts by people on the forum. I enjoy the banter.

That said, she can fly under the radar for years, no one will knock on her door in the middle of the nite, show up and seize her assets, or any thing of the sort.

This is the glorious "Land 'O Thais", it is a developing third world country which in our lifetimes will NEVER make it past that word developing. Enforcement of ANY law is a very selective and haphazard effort at best.

I believe you are beating a dead horse with your 'get legal, pay taxes' rant. She is not under ANY scrutiny now, and those things can only cause scrutiny. The reply "their response was that it was untraceable, therefore they would not pursue such a matter" says it all, end of story. If "they" will not pursue such a matter, then there is nothing the matter, is there?

I suggest she get her Non-O or B visa, and continue her life without causing herself more problems.

LivingInLOS, you seem to be the self appointed moral immigration police here on the forum, but your last comment rings at least partially true; "Of course many rules can be broken and are not enforced, Thailand is a country with very selective enforcement on many issues but it doesn’t then make them legal solutions to the problem, only gives ways to break the laws."

In the glorious "Land 'O Thais", there is a great deal of ambiguity in what constitutes the 'breaking of the law'. It is not up to farangs to decide, to take the moral high ground, or to preach ethics, thankfully for all concerned it is up to the munchkins who run the amusement park we live in to decide.

Good luck to you girlx in getting a Non-O or a Non-B visa as both are good as gold for 90 day stays at a time here in the glorious "Land O Thais".

To each their own. .. ...

[sriracha john]

With all due respect to all involved, until there is written documentation of the work permit exemption letter...

all verbal assurances provided by any Somdet at the Labour Ministry aren't worth the money spent (perhaps 3 baht/minute?) on the phone call to obtain them.

[papakapbaan]

GIRLX: "so hmm i take it that no one here has ever been able to acquire a non-im O visa for the purpose of visiting friends and relatives, from a consulate in asia?"

I don't want to sound harsh... but you really sound like Candid.

YES. I would say you can definitely cross this Multi Non-o (issued by a neighbouring embassy) from your wish list for 2007.

A reality check is in order, girlx, sorry.

--- I would bet that NEVER EVER was a multi non-o (or even a single entry) issued in a neighbouring Thai embassy to an applicant who was not either a spouse or a parent of a Thai national.

(Possibly: bare a few specific cases, possibly fiancees etc. Some time ago).

Might be wrong but I would say: at least not in recent years.

--- Penang, Kula Lumpur, Singapore,... USED to give multi non-o to LEGITIMATE applicants prior to 01/10/2006.

(And only to them: again: spouses and parents of Thai nationals, in other words)

Now, basically, only the SINGLE entry version is available. We are talking about LEGITIMATE applicants.

(Cf. LIVINGLOS, quite right here. One could say: There are only legitimate visas issued by Thai embassies, OK. But there are legitimate and illegitimate applicants. Without any judgement BTW)

So well, in your case...

I am sure I will sound pessimitisc, but I will take the time and the risk (cf. easy flamers on TV) to tell you and everybody interested:

If you do not want to setup a company and employ yourself (note: you are very lucky: as a US citizen: you can setup a sole proprietorship)

Realistically: Your ONLY options are:

1) Single Entry Tourist visa in SEA ("back to back": for how long?)

2) Double Entry Tourist visa in the WEST

Don't know about the situation in the US, but you should maybe be aware of new developments in Europe: many European embassies recently became restrictive with the issuance of TOURIST VISAS (friends of mine in Switzerland and Germany were recently refused a DOUBLE entry)

(BTW More than a double, if still available anywhere, is not really useful for long term stay since validity is 6 months anyway, not more)

3) Multi Non-O visa at a "friendly" consulate in the WEST (culturally at least).

No immediate neighbour for sure. Probably: Not Australia if not a "family" case.

--> Hull in UK or several friendly consulates in the US seem to be good bets.

I am not sure about Hull after 01/10/2006.

I can only confirm thay they informed me (BELGIAN) on 20/12/2006 that they would issue a multi non-o if I provided them with the Thai birth certificate of my Thai-Belgian daughter.

In the "pack" of documents they sent me in December, they did not delete the "visit friends" from the list of possible reasons for an appplication for a non-o class.

But I would be worried by the statement in this thread by LIVINGLOS:

"In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there'"

I did not see the context of this sentence, but I would bet that the "reasons to be there" refers to Thailand, not Hull.

In other words, anybody can apply at Hull regardless of his country of residence or citizenship.

But you need valid reasons to apply for a Non-O (will the "visit friends" be allowed after 01/10/2006? Not sure).

I think you are left with friendly consulates in your own country.

I believe you are still "lucky": we will see: at the end (...) US citizens will be the last ones to take advantage of "friendly" multi non-o visas.........

Bottom line: I think you have to go home every 15 months.

I'm writing all this because it's the same for me. And I'm the father of a 2.5 year Thai girl. (Unmarried and below 50, so I don't enter in any of their "drawers" for yearly extensions since 01/10/2006).

(note: Then from Zeebrugge to Kingston Upon Hull ;-) In Belgium they will only issue Non-O to spouses, strictly).

And let's hope they will allow "friendly first world visas" for many more years?! :-(

[LivinLOS]

But I would be worried by the statement in this thread by LIVINGLOS:

"In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there'"

I did not see the context of this sentence, but I would bet that the "reasons to be there" refers to Thailand, not Hull.

In other words, anybody can apply at Hull regardless of his country of residence or citizenship.

But you need valid reasons to apply for a Non-O (will the "visit friends" be allowed after 01/10/2006? Not sure).

No the context of that comment was in being given to a person (IIRC French) who does not have a friendly consulate.. I was suggesting that if applied for in Hull and with a UK address they might well succeed..

[papakapbaan]

But I would be worried by the statement in this thread by LIVINGLOS:

"In discussions with Alan he has said they will process applications of people 'if they have a reason to be there'"

I did not see the context of this sentence, but I would bet that the "reasons to be there" refers to Thailand, not Hull.

In other words, anybody can apply at Hull regardless of his country of residence or citizenship.

But you need valid reasons to apply for a Non-O (will the "visit friends" be allowed after 01/10/2006? Not sure).

No the context of that comment was in being given to a person (IIRC French) who does not have a friendly consulate.. I was suggesting that if applied for in Hull and with a UK address they might well succeed..

OK, good news then.

At any rate: I note for interested parties:

-anybody can apply at Hull regardless of his country of residence or citizenship.

They might have unwritten rules to discriminate against non UK citizens? But I don't think so.

In my case, there was no issue here. And it will be the first time I set foot in the UK in my entire life...

-they "insisted" I must provide them with a copy of the birth certificate of my Thai daughter.

I will just say: It might be worth checking with them whether they really still issue Multi Non-O to anybody who "does not have a friendly consulate", especially if coming from abroad. I really doubt that an UK address (do you basically mean: a friend/host in UK?) is sufficient.

[IgnacioE]

Sorry about the last blank post - my first one.

I haven't followed all the posts on this thread but maybe this info is helpful (and I've got a lot of info from this forum before, so I'd like to give something back):

My family - Thai wife and our 2 kids (that have Thai passports) - moved to Thailand 3 months ago. I am American, working in Singapore as a Singapore PR and keep an address there via a friend (I am commuting back and forth). A week and a half ago (thinking my time was running out for tourist visas - I am a total procastinator), I applied for a non-Immigrant O visa at the Thai embassy in Singapore. The lady seemed only interested in the marriage certificate as that was the only thing she photocopied. I picked up my passport the next day and was surprised that I got a multiple-entry one year non-Immigrant O visa. And it looked like there were about 25 people in line picking up visas too - of course I don't know what kind of visas they were getting.

I point this out because the talk around Phuket is that Singapore is THE WORST place for getting a visa. Plus that I heard that I wouldn't get a multiple entry O visa in a SE Asia country if my citizenship wasn't from here (perhaps the Singaporean PR helped).

Living in bureaucratically perfect Singapore for years, I've seen the Singapore government change their policies, unannounced, on a dime for immigration and visa policies. I don't see why Thailand would be different.

Just my 2 cents worth and hope that this helps somebody.

[lopburi3]

Thanks for the report and yes the reporting of others also indicates Singapore is the Consulate of Choice in the region these days.