30 year business lease, Thai owner refuses to leave the property

[madhav]

Our company has a 30 year business lease on a property, and our company has the exclusive right to reside/stay and use the place until the lease expires. We basically need our own Tabian Baan in the company name for operating the business. (for business purposes).

 

However right now the land owner has the Tabian Baan in her name. It is true she is the owner of the land, but she has no right to reside/stay in the land that she leases. (This is written in the the contract) The owner of the land has the right to the land title deed, but doesn’t have the right to reside in a leased land. Correct?

 

Question : Do we need the land owners permission to obtain this Tabian Baan or by default does the lease agreement automatically give this?

 

The main problems is, the owner doesn't want to help, and to make it worse she has actually now lives in a small bungalow on the land, is interfering with the running of the business and refuses to leave. We have called the police many times and explained our situation but she shows her tabian Baan with the address on it and then says she is the owner and the police won't do a thing.

 

What would people recommend? The situation is truly maddening! 

Edited June 13, 2017 by madhav

[funandsuninbangkok]

Money, lawyer, lots of time. 

 

Choke dee

[lucjoker]

lay back, relax , smoke a cigarette ........that's what i do when i have been f****** 

[williamgeorgeallen]

2 options. 

start handing money to a lawyer.

walk away.

i would tend toward the second.

[steven100]

purchase a six pack of Tiger beer .... sit down relax and think about it ...

then walk away .... are you going to put more money in to chase something you won't win ...

[colinneil]

OP the more upset you get the worse it will become.

For your own peace of mind ( sanity ) get out.

You are in a situation that you cannot win, legal contracts here are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thai versus farang, no brainer, farang loses.

[manarak]

30 year business lease... is this lease registered with the land office?

[Familyaffairs]

Did you register the lease with the land dept ? If you have then you have the exclusive right to enjoy the lease without interference for the durarion of the lease. Period.

[KittenKong]

11 hours ago, madhav said:

The main problems is, the owner doesn't want to help, and to make it worse she has actually now lives in a small bungalow on the land, is interfering with the running of the business and refuses to leave.

 

Perhaps your company should start a subsidiary pig breeding unit or a 24-hour metalworking shop and locate it all around her house? Soap manufacturing is another option that usually drives neighbours out.

[phantomfiddler]

Is your lease registered on the back of the "Chanote" ? It should be, and if it is not then you have been swindled and are good for a maximum of 3 years. See a lawyer, there are good and honest ones around if you look.

[bangkokairportlink]

You have land, just bury her.

 

 

[tomwct]

Looks liked you have been screwed, but not unusual in Thailand. Are you paying lease payments or did you pay a lump

sum? If paying payments, stop paying until you have a clear understanding of your rights. I would call your embassy and get

a name of an attorney they recommend. Let the attorney look over your paperwork and explain what's wrong or right about

your lease. Then decide whether you want to stay or leave. Amazing Thailand.

[GarryP]

47 minutes ago, colinneil said:

OP the more upset you get the worse it will become.

For your own peace of mind ( sanity ) get out.

You are in a situation that you cannot win, legal contracts here are not worth the paper they are written on.

Thai versus farang, no brainer, farang loses.

It is not always that way. A number of posters on TVF have prevailed in actions taken against locals, including enforcement of contracts. The farang does not always lose. In fact, for the most part, the courts are really quite fair. However, what you do see is foreigners who are unable to speak the language well, if at all (including those who misguidedly believe they are good at the local language), going head to head with locals, misunderstanding the situation, being fed misinterpretations and falsehoods by others, resulting in a total mishandling of complaints, contracts, actions. If you cannot speak the language, stay out of it and appoint someone you trust , who does, to speak for you. 

[colinneil]

25 minutes ago, GarryP said:

It is not always that way. A number of posters on TVF have prevailed in actions taken against locals, including enforcement of contracts. The farang does not always lose. In fact, for the most part, the courts are really quite fair. However, what you do see is foreigners who are unable to speak the language well, if at all (including those who misguidedly believe they are good at the local language), going head to head with locals, misunderstanding the situation, being fed misinterpretations and falsehoods by others, resulting in a total mishandling of complaints, contracts, actions. If you cannot speak the language, stay out of it and appoint someone you trust , who does, to speak for you. 

The courts are quite fair?

I beg to differ, i was divorced because of desertion, failure to support my wife.

The law in Thailand states that for desertion, failure to support, requires the husband to have been away for over 1 year.

My ex was granted divorce on the,m grounds 3 weeks after i left for the UK.

So do not tell me courts here are fair, when it is Thai against farang.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by colinneil

[madhav]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

30 year business lease... is this lease registered with the land office?

 

1 hour ago, Familyaffairs said:

Did you register the lease with the land dept ? If you have then you have the exclusive right to enjoy the lease without interference for the durarion of the lease. Period.

Yes and yes. It is done by the books, registered with the land department with a proper lawyer and contract. Payments are made monthly. The lease has been in effect for more than 10 years already, just the main issue is the tabian baan and the owner not leaving the property.

 

The other issue is that who will enforce the law if the police are of no help?

 

Will obviously not stop paying because this will automatically terminate the lease and ruin the business. As for all the other comments about leaving, this is Thailand, Thai vs farang etc etc... please try to be a little more constructive and helpful with your comments.

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by madhav

[madhav]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

Perhaps your company should start a subsidiary pig breeding unit or a 24-hour metalworking shop and locate it all around her house? Soap manufacturing is another option that usually drives neighbours out.

 

Have thought about these kind of scenarios, and much much worse, but prefer not to go there as it will disturb the business too much. 

[tomwct]

The RTP is a pay to play organization, as well as a Corrupt Organization. Have your lawyer take you to the nearest Army Outpost and sit down with them and file a complaint. Have all of your paperwork in order. The Army has the same authority as the RTP, but you'll get action from the Army without having to pass brown envelopes.

Edited June 14, 2017 by tomwct

[madhav]

2 minutes ago, tomwct said:

The RTP is a pay to play organization, as well as a Corrupt Organization. Have your lawyer take you to the nearest Army Outpost and sit down with them and file a complaint. Have all of your paperwork in order. The Army has the same authority as the RTP, but you'll get action from the Army without having to pass brown envelopes.

Never thought of this option before. Interesting. Have you ever heard of a successful outcome doing this? Or is this just an idea?

[tomwct]

2 minutes ago, madhav said:

Never thought of this option before. Interesting. Have you ever heard of a successful outcome doing this? Or is this just an idea?

Yes, I live in Korat and I have neighbors who knew a gambling operation had been going on for years. The police ignored it

but a group of neighbors went to the Army and the following weekend three operations and 44 people arrested. Four Senior

Police in this District were relieved of their duties and reassigned.

[GarryP]

46 minutes ago, colinneil said:

The courts are quite fair?

I beg to differ, i was divorced because of desertion, failure to support my wife.

The law in Thailand states that for desertion, failure to support, requires the husband to have been away for over 1 year.

My ex was granted divorce on the,m grounds 3 weeks after i left for the UK.

So do not tell me courts here are fair, when it is Thai against farang.

 

 

Sorry to hear what happened to you. But from my experience that is not the norm.  In fact quite a number of posters have reported positive outcomes in the case of divorce.   

[madhav]

8 hours ago, tomwct said:

Yes, I live in Korat and I have neighbors who knew a gambling operation had been going on for years. The police ignored it

but a group of neighbors went to the Army and the following weekend three operations and 44 people arrested. Four Senior

Police in this District were relieved of their duties and reassigned.

Sounds like a good outcome indeed. Hope there was no retribution for those who called the help of the army.

 

We will go to Tessabaan tomorrow to enquire about obtaining the tabian Baan for the business. This may assist in the process to remove this landlady from the property.

[Foozool]

Is the house has mentioned in your lease ? Or you just leased the land only ? 

If the bungalow is not in your lease, she has right to stay in her house. 

Some people sell their land. There are trees at the time you saw the land, there will be no trees after you buy it. They say : we sold the land only, not trees.

Go figure.

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Foozool

[alfieconn]

21 minutes ago, Foozool said:

Is the house has mentioned in your lease ? Or you just leased the land only ? 

If the bungalow is not in your lease, she has right to stay in her house. 

Some people sell their land. There are trees at the time you saw the land, there will be no trees after you buy it. They say : we sold the land only, not trees.

Go figure.

 

Your 2 examples are totally different, one is leasing and the other one is selling, one has a house that cannot be removed the other one has tree's that can be removed !

As for staying in the house, i very much doubt that she has a right !

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by alfieconn

[madhav]

22 minutes ago, Foozool said:

Is the house has mentioned in your lease ? Or you just leased the land only ? 

If the bungalow is not in your lease, she has right to stay in her house. 

Some people sell their land. There are trees at the time you saw the land, there will be no trees after you buy it. They say : we sold the land only, not trees.

Go figure.

 

Land and everything on it. Buildings trees, dirt, the whole lot.

[Foozool]

1 hour ago, alfieconn said:

Your 2 examples are totally different, one is leasing and the other one is selling, one has a house that cannot be removed the other one has tree's that can be removed !

As for staying in the house, i very much doubt that she has a right !

 

The "trees" example was just to explain how things work or how people think here in LOS. 

It sounds like different planet. 

[Foozool]

2 hours ago, madhav said:

Land and everything on it. Buildings trees, dirt, the whole lot.

 

Of course the owner has a "tabien ban" because she lived there before she lease it to you. You could try by going to police station and and show your lease agreement. The owner has no right to enter the property after the lease effective date unless otherwise.the owner has no right to enter the property even though has tabien ban. Tabien ban was issued before the owner decided to lease the property.

if police does not want to take any action it means that they don't care since you are not a Thai and you have no Thai among your business partners. 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Foozool

[madhav]

8 hours ago, Foozool said:

 

Of course the owner has a "tabien ban" because she lived there before she lease it to you. You could try by going to police station and and show your lease agreement. The owner has no right to enter the property after the lease effective date unless otherwise.the owner has no right to enter the property even though has tabien ban. Tabien ban was issued before the owner decided to lease the property.

if police does not want to take any action it means that they don't care since you are not a Thai and you have no Thai among your business partners. 

 

One of the 3 directors of the company is Thai, our managers are all Thai, but it makes not difference. The police won't do anything. Money or no money, it is not about that. They simply won't do their job. 

 

We even installed security cameras and have and endless amount of video footage of her breaking and entering stealing both customers and resort property. Also have footage of her intentionally damaging the property. We show the new footage to the police on a monthly basis and make reports etc and they still don't care. There are so many police reports we could write a novel. 

 

I believe she has told them "It's all her land so how can she steal what is already hers?"

 

We were thinking to hire some tough security and basically tell them if she shows up just drag her out but they won't do it. 

 

There is is some strange idea in Thai culture about her having a Tabian Baan and being the land owner that puts them off, irrespective of the business having leased the land and everything on it.

 

I guess we could lodge a law suit but we all know how long this will take until an actual decision is made, at least 5 years. Meanwhile the fun and games will continue and the police won't do a thing. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by madhav

[alfieconn]

1 hour ago, madhav said:

One of the 3 directors of the company is Thai, our managers are all Thai, but it makes not difference. The police won't do anything. Money or no money, it is not about that. They simply won't do their job. 

 

We even installed security cameras and have and endless amount of video footage of her breaking and entering stealing both customers and resort property. Also have footage of her intentionally damaging the property. We show the new footage to the police on a monthly basis and make reports etc and they still don't care. There are so many police reports we could write a novel. 

 

I believe she has told them "It's all her land so how can she steal what is already hers?"

 

We were thinking to hire some tough security and basically tell them if she shows up just drag her out but they won't do it. 

 

There is is some strange idea in Thai culture about her having a Tabian Baan and being the land owner that puts them off, irrespective of the business having leased the land and everything on it.

 

I guess we could lodge a law suit but we all know how long this will take until an actual decision is made, at least 5 years. Meanwhile the fun and games will continue and the police won't do a thing. 

To be fair it's one of the joy's of being on Samui where the local's run the Island and say what goes and the police run scared !

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, madhav said:

We even installed security cameras and have and endless amount of video footage of her breaking and entering stealing both customers and resort property. Also have footage of her intentionally damaging the property. We show the new footage to the police on a monthly basis and make reports etc and they still don't care. There are so many police reports we could write a novel. 

.........................

There is is some strange idea in Thai culture about her having a Tabian Baan and being the land owner that puts them off, irrespective of the business having leased the land and everything on it.

 

This sounds more like she has some influence over the police to me.

 

As mentioned, get a Thai-speaker to help you complain to the NCPO (Army) on 1111 but be prepared to make enemies.

[Konaboy1]

How soon they forget. Thailand is NOT a nation of law.