Trump’s Vision for a Government Overhaul with RFK Jr. and Elon Musk Gaining Power

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Unfortunately, can't read the full article without logging in.

 

It will be hard to prosecute. The law would have to specifically outlaw the use of this specific material in this specific situation, and I understand that it doesn't. If regulation is left to discretion at various points down the line, then  you would have to prove that someone was fully cognisant of the real level of risk. Fact is, nobody really knew because there's no precedent for this actual event. If the fire experts knew, then they are the ones guilty of not making sure the regulation was enforced. But we don't prosecute our fire experts - they're all heroes of course.

Drawings and specifications must have been signed off by appropriately qualified people

 

Who?

 

If not, why?

[citybiker]

Drawings and specifications must have been signed off by appropriately qualified people
 
Who?
 
If not, why?

K&C council housing planning & maintenance along with approved contractors.

Accountability is key, the audit assessor may also be dragged in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mrdome]

23 hours ago, Grouse said:

Drawings and specifications must have been signed off by appropriately qualified people

 

Who?

 

If not, why?

Plus, I bet in a number of companies and organizations there are people with serious concerns/insider knowledge that do not come forward. ... It only comes out after people have died.

 

Don't they realize that lives literally depend on them taking action?

[ddavidovsky]

17 minutes ago, mrdome said:

Plus, I bet in a number of companies and organizations there are people with serious concerns/insider knowledge that do not come forward. ... It only comes out after people have died.

 

Don't they realize that lives literally depend on them taking action?

Lives depend on the government enacting clear laws that clearly require appropriate agencies to clearly follow appropriate regulations. By all accounts a clear and unequivocal system was not in place, only a discretionary system.

 

Lives don't depend on revenge-scapegoating for this particular event, even though that may make some people feel better.

[mrdome]

 

dd, people say the government should do this, that and the other when it concerns them directly or they are emotionally attached to the issue, as in the case of such a tragedy, and the rest of the time they hate regulations and laws, so this isn't going to work for every single case, area, industry, loophole, what have you. 

 

I still say, strengthen individual responsibility in society and dial back the government as big brother directing it all.

[ddavidovsky]

8 minutes ago, mrdome said:

 

dd, people say the government should do this, that and the other when it concerns them directly or they are emotionally attached to the issue, as in the case of such a tragedy, and the rest of the time they hate regulations and laws, so this isn't going to work for every single case, area, industry, loophole, what have you. 

 

I still say, strengthen individual responsibility in society and dial back the government as big brother directing it all.

Great plan - except for the human element. Corner-cutting, cost-cutting, time-saving, out-and-out cheating... that's what people are good at. No good being idealistic here. Fire safety is a control issue. That's what government is for.

[Airbagwill]

On 12/07/2017 at 3:53 PM, ddavidovsky said:

Unfortunately, can't read the full article without logging in.

 

It will be hard to prosecute. The law would have to specifically outlaw the use of this specific material in this specific situation, and I understand that it doesn't. If regulation is left to discretion at various points down the line, then  you would have to prove that someone was fully cognisant of the real level of risk. Fact is, nobody really knew because there's no precedent for this actual event. If the fire experts knew, then they are the ones guilty of not making sure the regulation was enforced. But we don't prosecute our fire experts - they're all heroes of course.

Not needed...(criminal) negligence laws cover it.

The problem is that with the current investigations and inquiries the govt has effectively ring fences the whole affair. They are even lying about the death toll with a policy of dripping out figures to avoid a public outcry.

Police, local authorities and government will stand together on this to protect the status quo.

[perthperson]

7 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

They are even lying about the death toll

 

I hope you have some damned good evidence which supports this despicable piece of speculation/rumour.

[Airbagwill]

8 minutes ago, perthperson said:

 

I hope you have some damned good evidence which supports this despicable piece of speculation/rumour.

Why? I don't need "evidence" as you simplistically suggest.

You see this the kind of cow-towing rollover attitude that allows the authorities to get away with murder or manslaughter.

I don't need any evidence....I'm basing my opinion on the information in the press and simple maths...There are loads of people missing still and unaccounted for. .It is up to the police to collate the evidence 

Those who start demanding evidence on forums line this are just hiding the fact they don't actually have an argument themselves.

Read up, get informed and then put forward an opinion rather than naive puerile comments about other opinions that are based on a reasoned assessment of the situation.

Come back when you have a reasoned opinion.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Airbagwill

[perthperson]

Just now, Airbagwill said:

I don't need any evidence

That says all that is needed.  Another bl**dy armchair, keyboard cowboy , expert !  

 

You would be better employed counting bodies in the morgue or searching the debris for the unfortunates who are still to be found. 

[AGareth2]

I still think it was arson

[perthperson]

3 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

I still think it was arson

 

The Police are involved in conducting a massive criminal investigation into the cause of the fire. I am sure they would welcome details of your conspiracy theory . 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, perthperson said:

That says all that is needed.  Another bl**dy armchair, keyboard cowboy , expert !  

 

You would be better employed counting bodies in the morgue or searching the debris for the unfortunates who are still to be found. 

Possibly the most facile response on the thread.

You made a ridiculous post and now are trying to save face.

[Airbagwill]

42 minutes ago, perthperson said:

 

The Police are involved in conducting a massive criminal investigation into the cause of the fire. I am sure they would welcome details of your conspiracy theory . 

As we know where and how the fire started, and that is supported by how the fire spread, you'd need a big dose of paranoia to go with another theory.

[perthperson]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

I don't need "evidence"

I believe the above to be the "most facile and ridiculous" comment on this thread. 

 

I am taking no further part in this debate ......................................

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

[Basil B]

On 12/07/2017 at 9:58 AM, Grouse said:

Drawings and specifications must have been signed off by appropriately qualified people

 

Who?

 

If not, why?

Maybe so, but was the finished job up too spec?

 

Were the building standards as laid out by UK Gov, good enough in this case?

 

Only an inquiry will find this out.

[Basil B]

My thoughts go back to how the tenants were handled in the hours and days afterwards.

 

Firstly if in a situation where a family or families are made homeless through no action of their own some body/organisation should legally be responsible to help.

 

In this instance I think it was very clear that no resident (except may be the unfortunate owner of the fridge) was responsible for their circumstances, they should not need charities to hand out cloths and food, what they needed/need is an appointed social worker (a Winston Wolf) to sub money for essentials in the first instance, then find them temporary housing, this can understandably be hard to find for so many people  K&C at short notice, particularly as you could not ask any of them to accept any high rise accommodation, just to see the get everything they need and help with claiming every penny back from those responsible...

 

Within days the Government made £5,000,000 available to K&C, that's nearly £50,000 per household, where has it gone? and I am also sure a council like K&C could find a few £million from contingency funds.

 

And if you do not know who Winston Wolf is:

  

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Basil B said:

Maybe so, but was the finished job up too spec?

 

Were the building standards as laid out by UK Gov, good enough in this case?

 

Only an inquiry will find this out.

The manufacturers' literature is very clear.

 

I'm referring to BOTH the cladding and the insulation layer

 

Who specified it?

 

Who signed off the BoQ?

 

Who was the engineer responsible?

 

Who inspected the installation?

 

Who signed it off?

 

THERE ARE PROCEDURES ( and I guess pricedures as my auto complete nicely proposes!)

 

 

[Jim P]

On 16/07/2017 at 2:28 AM, AGareth2 said:

I still think it was arson

Your wrong

[Jim P]

On 16/07/2017 at 1:26 AM, Airbagwill said:

They are even lying about the death toll with a policy of dripping out figures to avoid a public outcry.

 

Not true, you must be a soft touch for the conspiracy theorists.

[mrdome]

On 7/13/2017 at 1:42 PM, ddavidovsky said:

Great plan - except for the human element. Corner-cutting, cost-cutting, time-saving, out-and-out cheating... that's what people are good at. No good being idealistic here. Fire safety is a control issue. That's what government is for.

The rules and laws are already in place but they are not sufficient. I stand behind my point, whistle blowers have become vitally important, exactly because corner and cost-cutting endangers lives..

[ddavidovsky]

4 minutes ago, mrdome said:

The rules and laws are already in place but they are not sufficient. I stand behind my point, whistle blowers have become vitally important, exactly because corner and cost-cutting endangers lives..

If the rules and laws are already in place and are watertight, I readily concede, but as far as I understand it, the rules in Britain in this care are not clear - they are discretionary - they allow a variety of factors to be weighed and judgement to be exercised. This leeway is exactly what allowed the problem to occur - control was not tight enough. that's a governance issue.

[Airbagwill]

On 18/07/2017 at 1:55 AM, Jim P said:

Not true, you must be a soft touch for the conspiracy theorists.

No sir ..do the maths and don't be so patronising

[Jim P]

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

No sir ..do the maths and don't be so patronising

Your talking rubbish, what maths? The figure given may rise, indeed it is likely to rise, but conclusive proof must be made before banding figures around willy nilly. Where did you get your information from, if you believe Im being patronising? You have quoted its POLICY to drip feed the figures.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Jim P

[Airbagwill]

 

This is the result of those who decide it's OK to ignore regulations - you know the kind, they are always moaning in pubs about the "nanny state" - something they simply don't understand.

 

""The problem here is not perception, but your actual culpability in an actual crisis."

 

 

Grenfell Tower Residents call on new Kensington Council leader to resign amid shouts of "murderers"

[Airbagwill]

13 hours ago, Jim P said:

Your talking rubbish, what maths? The figure given may rise, indeed it is likely to rise, but conclusive proof must be made before banding figures around willy nilly. Where did you get your information from, if you believe Im being patronising? You have quoted its POLICY to drip feed the figures.

 

13 hours ago, Jim P said:

Your talking rubbish, what maths? The figure given may rise, indeed it is likely to rise, but conclusive proof must be made before banding figures around willy nilly. Where did you get your information from, if you believe Im being patronising? You have quoted its POLICY to drip feed the figures.

I get my information from multiple sources and am capable of analysing it....just work out the number of apartments and the people still missing - it's going to be months or years before they admit to it, but it ain't rocket science - at least to most us us. You are way to gullible and unfortunately calls for "dammed good evidnce" are nothing more than a sign that you really don't know what you are talking about

[AGareth2]

On 18/07/2017 at 1:51 AM, Jim P said:

Your wrong

why do you say that?

[Jim P]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

 

I get my information from multiple sources and am capable of analysing it....just work out the number of apartments and the people still missing - it's going to be months or years before they admit to it, but it ain't rocket science - at least to most us us. You are way to gullible and unfortunately calls for "dammed good evidnce" are nothing more than a sign that you really don't know what you are talking about

Your information from multiple sources, ummm let me guess The Sun, Daily Mail, You Tube, the understandable rants of angry and distressed tenants and relatives, that want answers yesterday etc None of which are evidence. Many missing are amongst those recovered, they haven't been able to confirm the identities yet. Your theories are, as I said, rubbish.

 

Before they admit to it, admit to what ? Have you been inside the tower, or in anyway involved ?  You are accusing the Police, Fire brigade, recovery teams etc of a cover up.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Jim P

[Jim P]

On 20/07/2017 at 9:46 AM, AGareth2 said:

why do you say that?

Hi Agarth, because I was tackling this fire shortly after the initial attendance. Many of the intial crews I have known for over 20 years and I have their first hand accounts. The cause is not in doubt by anybody but the reason for it catching fire is the question that will have to be answered. There are a number of possible reasons all of which will form part of the investigation.

 

On 16/07/2017 at 1:45 AM, Airbagwill said:

Why? I don't need "evidence" as you simplistically suggest.

You see this the kind of cow-towing rollover attitude that allows the authorities to get away with murder or manslaughter.

I don't need any evidence....I'm basing my opinion on the information in the press and simple maths...There are loads of people missing still and unaccounted for. .It is up to the police to collate the evidence 

Those who start demanding evidence on forums line this are just hiding the fact they don't actually have an argument themselves.

Read up, get informed and then put forward an opinion rather than naive puerile comments about other opinions that are based on a reasoned assessment of the situation.

Come back when you have a reasoned opinion.

 

On 20/07/2017 at 9:30 AM, Airbagwill said:

 

I get my information from multiple sources and am capable of analysing it....just work out the number of apartments and the people still missing - it's going to be months or years before they admit to it, but it ain't rocket science - at least to most us us. You are way to gullible and unfortunately calls for "dammed good evidnce" are nothing more than a sign that you really don't know what you are talking about

I was also subsequently involved in the stabilisation of the building and body recovery. The current total is an accurate reflection of what is currently known. What I know makes your ' evidence' and 'analysis' of a cover up laughable. As I have said its just the sort of rubbish that you read in The Sun or Daily Mail. I will leave the Thai Visa readers to judge who is gullible and really doesnt know what they are talking about.