Death toll in London tower fire rises to 30, figure expected to rise

[evadgib]

 

Grenfell Tower: Statement from the Prime Minister : 17 June 2017

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-40312939/london-fire-queen-holds-minute-s-silence-for-victims

[ddavidovsky]

Usual drip-drip of information. The media is so powerful now that the authorities have to drip-feed bad news. The media is capable - indeed determined - to whip the public into a frenzy, especially if it suits their political agenda. We can safely assume that the information that isn't being released is bad news, such as whether the cladding had sufficient fire breaks installed. Some of the cladding is still in place - they can check it in minutes. They know, but they don't release the information, because it's bad news. The world is now a very unstable place due to the media's frenzy-feeding.

[Rimmer]

Some baiting and troll posts have been removed

[7by7]

9 hours ago, teddog said:

  Also rapid deportations from UK for asylum seekers would have excluded a fair few from this fire

What a ridiculous statement!

 

So far, only one of the identified dead was an asylum seeker.

 

Grenfell Tower fire: Full details of all the missing people

 

Do you really think that if there were no asylum seekers in the UK this block would have been standing empty?

 

Using this tragedy to peddle your politics; you should hang your head in shame!

[7by7]

4 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

Usual drip-drip of information. The media is so powerful now that the authorities have to drip-feed bad news.........

 The authorities are 'drip feeding' information because they deal in facts, not speculation.

 

Until a full search of the building has been completed, no one will know for sure the total number who perished in this fire. All the reports from the police and LFB have emphasised that they expect the death toll to rise as more bodies are found.

 

Until a thorough investigation has been completed, no one will know for sure how the fire started and why it spread so quickly. Such investigations, and subsequent action, take time. Although I agree with the mayor that a preliminary report needs to be produced ASAP.

 

In the mean time, similar blocks must be investigated by the local fire brigade's fire prevention and safety officers and recommended improvements carried out as a matter of urgency.

[Orton Rd]

Maybe all immigrants need to take a health and safety course before they get leave to remain, the actions of the taxi driver seem rather strange to say the least

[Ron19]

An off topic post and a reply to it have been removed, please keep on topic.

[teddog]

20 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

Usual drip-drip of information. The media is so powerful now that the authorities have to drip-feed bad news. The media is capable - indeed determined - to whip the public into a frenzy, especially if it suits their political agenda. We can safely assume that the information that isn't being released is bad news, such as whether the cladding had sufficient fire breaks installed. Some of the cladding is still in place - they can check it in minutes. They know, but they don't release the information, because it's bad news. The world is now a very unstable place due to the media's frenzy-feeding.

1

There would by now be a knowledgeable account of bodies involved, is being drip fed, bones, the skull would not disintegrate in the heat there, the problem is identification...some never identified through constant letting subletting of flats there etc.  Bet your life there will be a few winging there way back to UK to explain their whereabouts, especially the ones on pension credits

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/details-of-grenfell-tower-residents-discretionary-fund

[7by7]

14 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Maybe all immigrants need to take a health and safety course before they get leave to remain, the actions of the taxi driver seem rather strange to say the least

 Phoning the emergency services upon discovering the fire in his kitchen.

 

Warning his neighbours of the fire.

 

Strange? In what way?

 

 

[teddog]

46 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Phoning the emergency services upon discovering the fire in his kitchen.

 

Warning his neighbours of the fire.

 

Strange? In what way?

 

 

 

Best if you kept up to speed by reading past (multiple) reports,from the asylum seeker who initially  claimed responsibility, butI suspect the brotherhood have silenced him by now

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, teddog said:

Best if you kept up to speed by reading past (multiple) reports,from the asylum seeker who initially  claimed responsibility, butI suspect the brotherhood have silenced him by now

Enlighten me, then.

 

All the reports I have seen say that he did raise the alarm.

 

Reports like this one: ‘Haunted’ cabbie whose faulty fridge ‘started Grenfell fire’ blames himself for tragedy

 

Asylum seeker? Well, he was originally from Ethiopia, so it's possible. But if so, he must have been granted leave to remain otherwise he would not have been ab le to work. Not that it's relevant.

Edited June 19, 2017 by 7by7
Link added

[teddog]

Just now, 7by7 said:

Enlighten me, then.

 

All the reports I have seen say that he did raise the alarm.

 

Asylum seeker? Well, he was originally from Ethiopia, so it's possible. But if so, he must have been granted leave to remain otherwise he would not have been ab le to work. Not that it's relevant.

 

Let somebody else do it, was enough on the subject day after fire   'not able to work'  laughable

[7by7]

1 minute ago, teddog said:

Let somebody else do it, was enough on the subject day after fire

Usual cop out from those who make remarks they cannot substantiate. You made the accusation; you should back it up.

 

I edited my post to add a link to a report, one of many in all UK media, saying that he did raise the alarm; if you have evidence that these reports are false; produce it.

 

2 minutes ago, teddog said:

'not able to work'  laughable

Asylum seekers cannot work. At least cannot work legally. Do you have evidence that his employers were breaking the law by employing him, or are you again making unsubstantiated assumptions based upon your prejudices?

[dick dasterdly]

Surely one of the more important questions has to be whether refurbishment money was spent on making the tower block a bit less of an eyesore for the v wealthy neighbours  - rather than more important (for the residents) safety measures?

[zoza]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 2:52 PM, peterb17 said:

I think this will bring down the Conservative Goverment - it's a classic deprived / minorities/ asylum seekers / class war. . 

 

The local area or borough as we call it in the UK has the most deprived area and the most stunningly wealthy . I have no problem with wealth- from hard work , intelligence and enterprises- as long as the success and wealth is spread amongst those working for you- just how many Porsches do you need? 

 

In the UK we have a hard hitting free press- they are reporting that the contracts were given to the lowest tender- the work carried out was substandard and cut corners- this all from the richest borough. I hope the companies who made a huge profit- will be taken to account- Corporate Manslaughter ( sadly their kids won't be going to Harrow next year) 

 

This will  spark  off a class war ( maybe also question the insane amount we give away to countries such as Pakistan in foreign aid) 

 

As usual Her Majesty has shone through - unlike May- who on earth advises her? 

 

 

she has thrown three under the bus ? two over the mess that resulted from the snap election, and then the fire and the fact not a single recommendation had been implemented after the

inquiry into the deaths from another high rise fire trap (using the same cladding four years ago) so that was another underling/advisor thrown... I hear there are vacancies ..... 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.   If you are going to make an accusation that you say is in the media, then please post a link to back it up.   If you do not, then please don't make idle accusations.   It's called trolling and it will get you suspended.  

 

 

[Scott]

Posts violating Fair Use and reply have been removed.  

[Stargeezr]

This is a British government owned disaster, the government was responsible for the quality of the Reno, but did any one of the government go look at this clad being applied. I bet NO.  Now that the fire has happened, the Reno company should be bankrupted with lawsuits and fines, the tenants should all be compensated for all they have lost. The British government should find out who in the governments was supposed to watch over this reno project and fire them immediately. This fire is the shame of the British government and all the lax laws, like sprinkler are not needed for residential buildings. Or if there were no adequate fire eacapes and

only one stair case, the building should not have been considered safe to occupy.   I also blame the emergency department for some of the deaths to the people they told to stay in their flats.

Geezer

[Orton Rd]

The local labour council were the ones watching over the project

[superal]

1 hour ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

This is a British government owned disaster, the government was responsible for the quality of the Reno, but did any one of the government go look at this clad being applied. I bet NO.  Now that the fire has happened, the Reno company should be bankrupted with lawsuits and fines, the tenants should all be compensated for all they have lost. The British government should find out who in the governments was supposed to watch over this reno project and fire them immediately. This fire is the shame of the British government and all the lax laws, like sprinkler are not needed for residential buildings. Or if there were no adequate fire eacapes and

only one stair case, the building should not have been considered safe to occupy.   I also blame the emergency department for some of the deaths to the people they told to stay in their flats.

Geezer

No way am I defending the local council or government but here are a couple of reasons I think decisions were reached and advice given .   1/ No Sprinklers ------ generally they are installed throughout the corridors , staircases and landings . Little if any combustible materials to be used in these areas so not required  ( there can be no other logical reason for their omission )

2/ Advice to stay in their flats -------- standard safety advice as fires in flats are normally contained very locally and cannot spread because of the lack of combustibles outside of the flat . But the nature of this fire was different with the fire coming from outside , melting the newly installed glazing frames and curtains etc . To make things worse the stairwells and corridors were filled with dense toxic gases and smoke so the occupants had little chance of escape .

As I understand it there were no audible fire  alarms ,  is this fact ? 

    I am intrigued by the lack of fire drill given to the occupants . The Fire Department must have written risk assessments and issued a fire cert for the tower . As we know the firefighters could not get near the tower to extinguish the flames because of the extreme temperatures  , instead had to use remote controlled hoses . Easy to be wise in hindsight but this is their profession to deal with fires  but in this case I think that they were fed incorrect info on the cladding fire retardant properties .  There is a massive lesson to be learnt by all from this disaster . I am hoping that the investigation will be televised for a global audience that in itself  may well mitigate any further similar events  

[evadgib]

Communities Secretary statement: safety checks following the Grenfell Tower fire

 

PM chairs third meeting of the Grenfell Tower Recovery Taskforce

[dick dasterdly]

7 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

This is a British government owned disaster, the government was responsible for the quality of the Reno, but did any one of the government go look at this clad being applied. I bet NO.  Now that the fire has happened, the Reno company should be bankrupted with lawsuits and fines, the tenants should all be compensated for all they have lost. The British government should find out who in the governments was supposed to watch over this reno project and fire them immediately. This fire is the shame of the British government and all the lax laws, like sprinkler are not needed for residential buildings. Or if there were no adequate fire eacapes and

only one stair case, the building should not have been considered safe to occupy.   I also blame the emergency department for some of the deaths to the people they told to stay in their flats.

Geezer

I agree.  It seems likely that inferior (but cheaper) materials were allowed in the UK .

 

There are so many questions to be answered and for some reason this is going to take "years".. ...

 

Why should it take years?  Those involved have more important issues to deal with???

[simple1]

Some new info uncovered by the BBC. Four different Ministers were advised of fire risks from 2009 onward. Plus...

 

Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower. They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat. The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40330789

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by simple1

[7by7]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree.  It seems likely that inferior (but cheaper) materials were allowed in the UK .

 

There are so many questions to be answered and for some reason this is going to take "years".. ...

 

Why should it take years?  Those involved have more important issues to deal with???

 It will take 'years' because all the factors need thorough investigation. jumping to conclusions will be of no help or benefit to anyone.

 

But in the mean time the fire safety of all blocks in the UK needs reassessing, with the appropriate changes made as a matter of urgency.

[7by7]

10 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

The local labour council were the ones watching over the project

 

RBKC is Conservative controlled, and has been for many years.

 

Maybe you are thinking of the Lakanal House fire in 2009?

 

This happened in Southwark, which although controlled by a Lib/Dem coalition at the time of the fire was under it's historically usual Labour control when the refurbishment work was agreed and begun. Refurbishment which included the installation of external cladding, very similar to that used at Grenfell Tower, and was later condemned by the inquest into the six deaths as 'botched!'

 

It seems that some people are very keen to play politics with this disaster and the deaths of so many; but a little bit of research will show that no matter which party is in control, there are councils all over the country as culpable as Southwark were and it appears RBKC are when it comes to quick fixes which put residents' lives at risk.

[evadgib]

Lord Bourne statement following terror attack in Finsbury Park

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Lord Bourne statement following terror attack in Finsbury Park

Wrong thread

 

This should be in the paints and white wash coverage section

[evadgib]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Wrong thread

 

This should be in the paints and white wash coverage section

Rest assured I'm following other sources in quiet disbelief too...

[MiKT]

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, Grouse said:

http://m.bdonline.co.uk/5088261.article?mobilesite=enabled

 

All you wanted to know about cladding. 

Thank you very much for this very interesting reference.

 

It is more than obvious that something was very wrong with the refurbishment of the Grenfell Tower block (not to mention sticking a gas main up the single escape staircase) and many issues will need to be addressed, but given the huge amount of literature and reports on the many high rise fires caused or attributed to the cladding, including:

– Knowsley Heights - 1991

– Basingstoke - 1992

– Irvine - 1999

– Paddington, London – 2003

– The Edge, Manchester – 2004

– Windsor Tower, Madrid – 2005

– Berlin 2005

– Hungary 2009

– Dijon France 2010

– Chechnya

– – Al Nahda Tower, Sharjah 28th April 2012

– Mermoz Roubaix, France 15th May 2012

– Polat Tower, Instanbul, Turkey, 17th July 2012

– Tamweel Tower, Dubai, 18th November 2012

– and many more

 

It is also clear that by the time the Grenfell Tower block was refurbished, not only was the mechanism of fire spread on external cladding well recognized, many acceptable methods of cladding had been designed and implemented.

In fact this kind of external cladding has been well recognized as a fire risk in the UK since the Knowsley Heights fire in 1991, when the regulations were changed to require Class 0 fire rating for the cladding; so it seems to indicate that this was not the only problem and the methods and actual implementation of the installation will need to be very carefully investigated as allegations of cost cutting are bound to arise.

As a matter of interest Celotex put out the following statement on Friday the 16^th June.

“As with the rest of the nation our thoughts continue to be with those affected by the terrible fire at Grenfell Tower in London. On Wednesday, as soon as we were able to, we confirmed that our records showed a Celotex product (RS5000) was purchased for use in refurbishing the building. We wanted to provide an update to that statement and provide further information as we are able to.

It is important to state that Celotex manufacture rigid board insulation only. We do not manufacture, supply or install cladding. Insulation is one component in a rainscreen system, and is positioned in that system behind the cladding material.

As we previously stated, our records show a Celotex product (RS5000) was purchased for use in refurbishing the building. This product has a fire rating classification of Class 0, in accordance with British Standards. Celotex RS5000 is the insulation component specifically tested as part of a system to British Standard BS8414-2:2005. When the system is designed and installed in line with this, RS5000 meets the criteria set out in BRE Report BR 135 ‘Fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi storey buildings.’

We will of course assist the relevant authorities fully with any enquiries they have”.

 

But, as I think mentioned somewhere in the article you referenced above, although the material may perform satisfactorily when tested in accordance with the BS standard to Class O fire rating, an increase above the test limits in temperature can cause a catastrophic acceleration in the fire. I have often though this was a potential problem for LSOH cables which are tested to similar standards. However, with proper fire stopping this is not normally going to cause a problem. Clearly Grenfell did not have adequate fire stopping.

Other issues seem to me to be the nature of the finish on the Aluminum panels which one would think ought to be powder coated, but which I have had offered to me (not in the UK) with a quick spray of paint to save money, so you never know how fire resistant the panels would end up. Not of course that I am implying this was the case for Grenfell, but, but!

Readers wanting to know a bit more about cladding fires will find a huge amount of documentation on the web. Two easy to follow and informative refs are:

 

www.sesam-uae.com/safetyauh/presentations/Sarah.pdf

http://www.asfp.org.uk/webdocs/FIREX%202013%20Monday%20Presentations.pdf

 

 My agonised thoughts go out to all those who suffered so horribly in this terrible tragedy and to try to impute that it was refuges that caused the problem is beyond belief. One can only hope that those responsible for the shoddy refurbishment work are bought to justice (although I frankly doubt it) and that the building regulations are made much stronger and clearer and that immediate action is taken to prevent a similar occurrence in the many cheaply refurbished blocks in the UK (and of course those which are far, far, far worse in many other countries).

I hope too that those in the government who have ignored repeated warnings and requests to improve the building regulations will also end up in the dock.