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U.S. Navy destroyer, Philippines merchant vessel collide off Japan


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Posted

In today's Bangkok Post there is an sizeable article about the possibility

that the recent (June and this week's) destroyer crashes are linked to cyber attacks/hacking.

 

Worth a read that artice.

 

  • Sad 1
Posted

Here is another destroyer related piece from US Navy Times;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/08/24/navy-identifies-1-dead-9-missing-from-mccain-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-24-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup'

 

Mostly related to the Singapore mishap but also contains some pointers re Fitzgerald.

 

Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:51 AM, chrisinth said:

 

Speaking only about the Royal Navy in which I spent 23 years, specializing in navigation and small boat operations, I find that comment to have no merit. An Officer of the Watch (OOW) has to prove himself/herself before being trusted with the responsibility of both the vessel and all her crew. To this end he/she will undergo intense training in both navigation and ship handling.

 

The bridge crew during normal cruising (for a similar sized warship) would be made up of the Officer of the Watch, Quartermaster, (helmsman) Boatswain's Mate and a Radio Operator. 

 

On entering busy or restricted waterways, Special Sea Dutymen would be called for which, in addition to normal cruising would include the Captain or First Lieutenant being on the bridge and wheel and engine order logging commenced with the Navigating Officer taking over on the con and the OOW dedicated to the chart table. The engine room would also be manned with extra personnel, the ship's watertight integrity would be increased with fire & emergency parties mustered . 

 

A warship only has one dedicated Navigating Officer. I am certain that the same applies to the US Navy as well.

 

And just for interest, in the RN, form S.232 is the Report of Collision or Grounding form. This is why you will never (well, on very, very rare occasions) have the helmsman steering 232 degrees......................:smile:

"I find that comment to have no merit. "

 

True enough, but that won't discourage the nabobs here from enlightening us with their lukewarm wisdom and nonexistent at-sea experience.  And yes, US Navy ships have one Navigator billet with Dept Head status, but there may be an Asst Navigator (who'll be a JO without nearly the experience or responsibility of his boss).  I haven't read into the reports enough to know if these ships just had the normal nighttime underway watch set on the bridge or special detail augmentation.  (But they're probably standing port & starboard duty sections at THIS point ...)

 

It's interesting to hear chatter starting up about the possibility of hacking having something to do with the recent collisions.  I'm skeptical, but don't know nearly enough to be able to say it's not possible.

 

Edited by hawker9000
  • Like 1
Posted
39 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

"I find that comment to have no merit. "

 

True enough, but that won't discourage the nabobs here from enlightening us with their lukewarm wisdom and nonexistent at-sea experience.  And yes, US Navy ships have one Navigator billet with Dept Head status, but there may be an Asst Navigator (who'll be a JO without nearly the experience or responsibility of his boss).  I haven't read into the reports enough to know if these ships just had the normal nighttime underway watch set on the bridge or special detail augmentation.  (But they're probably standing port & starboard duty sections at THIS point ...)

 

It's interesting to hear chatter starting up about the possibility of hacking having something to do with the recent collisions.  I'm skeptical, but don't know nearly enough to be able to say it's not possible.

 

You say chrisinths post has no merit!!!

Ok but how much experience do you need to see bloody big container/tankers, looming down on you?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Posted

If a vessel,  military or otherwise, chooses to not broadcast their position via AIS then it is their obligation to avoid other ships that are doing so. As the below link states,  Singapore's ship control network,  equivalent to a traffic control system did not even know the McCain was there. This is along with other collisions shows that the US Navy has systematic issues and hopefully the relieving of the overall comander and worldwide safety shutdown will improve the the attitude. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/asia/navy-collision-uss-mccain-oil-tanker.html

TH 

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

From US Navy Times;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/27/navy-swos-a-culture-in-crisis/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-28-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

US Navy employees expressing doubts about officers capabilities

re navigating/driving ships.

 

Edited by melvinmelvin
typo again
Posted

 

Today's US Navy Times;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/30/top-navy-officer-no-indication-cyber-attack-played-role-in-mccain-and-fitz-disasters/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-30-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

US Navy officials on the possibility of cyber attacks/hacking as cause for the collisions.

They tend to rule out that possibility.

 

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Posted
On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 3:07 PM, thaihome said:

If a vessel,  military or otherwise, chooses to not broadcast their position via AIS then it is their obligation to avoid other ships that are doing so. As the below link states,  Singapore's ship control network,  equivalent to a traffic control system did not even know the McCain was there. This is along with other collisions shows that the US Navy has systematic issues and hopefully the relieving of the overall comander and worldwide safety shutdown will improve the the attitude. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/asia/navy-collision-uss-mccain-oil-tanker.html

TH 

Not transmitting on AIS does not mean you don't show up on the other's radar. An AIS target usually is seen as a triangle. The merchant ship should have seen a blimp on their radar and acquired it.

Posted
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
Posted

 

More heads rolling in the US Navy Pacific fleet;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/18/new-7th-fleet-boss-fires-rear-admiral-and-captain-citing-loss-of-confidence/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-18-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

Hope that either US or Japan authorities will (in the foreseeable future) come up with something substantial

re what took place leading up to the crash.

 

Posted

 

More on head rolling and punishment in the US Navy Pacific fleet;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/19/sen-mccain-20-sailors-reprimanded-in-wake-of-summers-fatal-at-sea-collisions/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-19-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

Assuming that the punishment is "fair and soundly" based that suggests to me that the navy must know

a whole lot about what led up to and caused til crashes off Japan and in Singapore.

 

Time to share.

 

Posted

 

Things, apart from head rolling, start to happen in the wake of the Japan and Singapore crashes;

 

New watch schedules to replace 5-on/10-off to ensure that drivers are rested

Enhanced focus on improving BRM

Ships to routinely use AIS

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/20/navy-issues-new-sleep-and-watch-schedule-rules-for-the-surface-fleet/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-20-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

More on head rolling in the US Navy in the wake of the destroyer crashes this summer.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/09/i-now-hate-my-ship-surveys-reveal-disastrous-morale-on-cruiser-shiloh/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-09-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

Also a substantial report on crew morale in shambles on a US Navy cruiser with the same

home port as the Fitzgerald.

Not directly linked to the Fitzgerald but some paralells with Caine and Fitzgerald is drawn.

Interesting read.

 

The US Navy has its challenges one could say.

 

Posted

 

Even more on head rolling in the US Navy after this summer's mishaps with McCain and Fitzgerald;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/11/navy-fires-john-s-mccain-leadership-calls-fatal-august-collision-preventable/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-11-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

About time the US Navy starts sharing the findings of the investigations while it still has employees left ...

 

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted
5 hours ago, thaihome said:

Here is the full report on both collisions. Makes for very sad reading, both for the deaths and the actions leading up to them. 

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S+McCain+Collision+Reports.pdf

 

TH 

 

thanks for posting this - good to see that they made good on their promise to release the details.

 

the reports confirm our suspicions - all of them.

 

 

Posted
11 hours ago, thaihome said:

Here is the full report on both collisions. Makes for very sad reading, both for the deaths and the actions leading up to them. 

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S+McCain+Collision+Reports.pdf

 

TH 

 

great, will be interesting reading,

 

in today's US Navy Times there was an intro to the report,

a resume of the factual mistakes on both ships leading up to the crashes

 

(in my view easier to understand the Cain mistakes than the Fitz ones)

 

but in the news snippet - nothing about why these mistakes were done - no hint if digging

 

I do hope the reports go beyond just listing the factual mistakes and what they caused

and which regulations were broken

 

dunno, but I think lack of training/practice is too simplistic

 

now, - to the read

 

Posted

The two reports are a contrast in management styles on each ship.

 

On the Fitz you seem to have a rather loose style that did not strictly enforce procedures such as plotting nearby ship positions nor notification to captain when traffic got close. This resulted in the ship basicly running into another ship they should have been able to easily avoid if procedures were followed.  

 

On the Cain, it appears it was run very tightly with the captain in full control. Unfortunately that full control included his running the bridge, giving direct orders to operators, without full acknowledgment of him being in control. This resulted in the captain giving an order he assumed would be followed up by the officer of deck to change the helm and thrust control configuration that was not acknowledged or followed up by the officer of the deck (since he assumed the captain was in charge). The result was the Cain making a uncontrolled turn into another ship. 

 

Certainly,  in both incidents,  lack of training by enlisted personnel played a big part but the management styles on each ship were flawed in completely different ways with the end result being the same and just as enviable in both cases.

 

TH

 

Posted

 

Guess the reports are OK, not great though in my view.

Detailed list of errors leading up to the crashes,

list of rules not adhered to etc.

 

What I miss is recommendations on what to do in order to avoid repeats.

 

Seems a bit simplistic to me to concentrate too much on training/practice

I think there are other and more difficult problems that deserves focus as well.

 

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