London/Finsbury Park: 'Several hurt' as vehicle hits pedestrians

[Dave67]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Why be an apologist for the stupidity? Messaging which has been repeatedly called out by professional security people as lacking any constructive input whatsoever, in fact detrimental.

Do you come from or live in London or Manchester at the moment or have relatives who do . If not you won't understand the anger and frustration of some of the people who do live there, Hence a natural reaction is not to sit back and wait for more , detrimental to the situaton or not. After the Manchester attack many people, like my Son and Daughter ,who use London Undergroud were anxious about another extremist outrage on the system . This was exacerbated by the following London attack. I fully understand people's anger at what has happened.

[simple1]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Must admit that I didn't read the article, as there is no excuse for the even greater cruelties of halal meat.

 

So I could be wrong in thinking that if it was not allowed at all, brit business wouldn't suffer?

This matter has been raised so many times, so I'm sure you can clearer articulate the "greater cruelties" permitted in the halal process in the UK?

[Grouse]

20 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

So you want to harm the British economy?

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jun/24/halal-meat-big-business-islamic-food-goes-mainstream

I want Halal meat labelled as such. WARNING HALAL MEAT would be appropriate. Maybe a photograph such as we have on cigarettes would be appropriate. Boycotts are coming to bring the food industry in to line. Ultimately, Halal should be banned.

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

I fully understand people's anger at what has happened.

So can I, but the messaging does not address the issues of Islamist extremism; just generalised bigotry. 

 

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, simple1 said:

This matter has been raised so many times, so I'm sure you can clearer articulate the "greater cruelties" permitted in the halal process in the UK?

Halal abattoirs cut animals throats while still alive and conscious and bleed them to death. How nice! How medieval! How barbaric! How un-British.

 

I'm looking for a video clip of Muslim slaughterhouses in Indonesia which prompted Australia to stop exporting live stock there. Cruel bastards.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Grouse
Anger

[Dave67]

Just now, Grouse said:

Halal abattoirs cut animals throats while still alive and conscious and bleed them to death. How nice! How medieval! How barbaric! How un-British.

Medieval being the word . Islam was founded 700 years after Christianity. They are now where we were then , burning heratics and unbelievers on the stake

[simple1]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Halal abattoirs cut animals throats while still alive and conscious and bleed them to death. How nice! How medieval! How barbaric! How un-British.

Approx 90% of halal certified meat is now pre-stunned in the UK, Kosher meat is not pre-stunned, refer URL below. 

 

http://www.shechitauk.org/faq/

 

I am sure you are well aware this matter has been covered countless times on this forum and Off Topic regards this OP. which is about a terror attack on Muslims

Edited June 25, 2017 by simple1

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

Approx 90% of halal certified meat is now pre-stunned in the UK, Kosher meat is not pre-stunned, refer URL below. 

 

http://www.shechitauk.org/faq/

I'm not racist; ban them both

[simple1]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I'm not racist

But you are a bigot

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

But you are a bigot

Thank you! Can I have a badge?

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Thank you! Can I have a badge?

I'll have one as well

[Thakkar]

On 6/22/2017 at 0:06 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Whilst I agree with the sentiment - it can never work.

 

In the same way that communism is a great idea, but can never work.  The worst aspects of human nature make it impossible. 

 

i.e. a few will always care more about their own personal wealth and power - leaving most others struggling to survive and having good reason to protect their own interests before others.

 

Lenin's brand of communism wasn't what Marx envisioned at all. Lenin's brand of communism was a system designed for aggrandizement of a small autocratic elite whose power would be protected by a massive military.

 

A hybrid of Marx AND Adam Smith's ideas are in operation, after fits and starts, in countries like Sweden, and those ideas work pretty well.

 

I agree with you that there are terrible aspects to human nature. Tribalism is in our genes. But tribalism is incompatible with the modern technological society that we've built almost in spite of our nature. The work of civilization-building is to overcome that nature, to smooth out the worst of our hard-edged instincts, to move away from tribalism.

 

I agree with you that my idealistic notion of "just getting along" seems naive. It is precisely because our tribal instinct are strong that homogeneity will not stop conflict. If we were all to wake up tomorrow speaking the same language, praying to the same god and have the same skin tone, I don't doubt for a moment that we would find ways to differentiate each other and form cliques and tribes based on *something*

 

The Greek city states warred among themselves despite the people looking the same, speaking more or less the same language and praying to the same gods.

 

We have no choice but to make it work so that different people can live together and do so in relative harmony, because the alternative is to break up into the kind of small groups of 100-150 individuals living in tight-knit extended family groups seldom encountering other groups—because that is how humans lived for millions of years and that is why we are tribal. (Even then there would be sibling rivalries to contend with).

 

It's not the world we should pine for.

 

Western Liberalism is a wonderful construct. It points to a brighter future for a humanity of strength in diversity. You can't save/protect Western Liberalism by abandoning its precepts; you can only protect/strengthen it by continuing to practice it, even in the face of those who would use terrible violence to derail you.

 

T

 

[canuckamuck]

It's not bigotry to be opposed to a method

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

4 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Oh ,so they were saying on their banners what most people think ,  it bugs me day after day when i see in the news and on the tv ,immegrants to Britain whinging and complaining and expecting us to change our ways to suit them ,well it is not going to happen ,the worm will turn . 

Yes, the Pakistanis tried to bring curry to the UK and that attempt failed miserably.

 

This reminds me of a comedy skit:

 

If I ran this country, the first thing I'd do is get rid of all the bloody immigrants. Oh yeah, this country would be great again if we kicked out all the Polish. And the Indians, and the Chinese and the Africans. Yeah, and the Huguenots. Comin' over here from France in the late seventeenth century. And them Normans, coming over here in 1066, shooting their foreign arrows about. And before that it was the Vikings wasn't it? With their raping and their pillaging and their longboats and their stupid axes. and their open top bloody sandwiches- it's unnatural ain't it? And before that it was the Anglos, and the Saxons. What about the bleeding' Romans? Them Romans, yeah, probably built the straight roads so's they could get to the dole office faster. And all those weird guys in fur pelts claims they only came here across the land bridge to hunt mammoth. Not bloody likely, mate; hunt your own mammoth. And don't get me started on Homo Erectus; come over here from Africa, just because the land masses were linked up. I'm glad that tectonic shift sorted that out! Don't forget those early tetrapods, draggin' their fishy bodies outta the sea. Get back to the sea where you belong, you evolutionary bastards! Sling 'em out, sling 'em all out, I say. Then we'll just have the real Brits in the country. Anyway, I'm starving. Think I fancy a curry.

 

T

 

[Thakkar]

58 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

there is no excuse for the even greater cruelties of halal meat.

 

You've been misled by the cruelty argument by people who have a different agenda. Let me explain:

 

It used to be that bigotry was dressed in the garb of "women's rights." Now it's dressed as "animal rights."

 

I don't buy it. If they give that much of a fk about animal rights, here's a salad, shaddup and eat that.

 

The fact is, 88% of halal meat slaughtered in Britain is stunned before slaughter. The real fight should be to ensure the remaining 12% is also stunned before slaughter. A much more important fight should be about how animals slated for meat should be treated while they are alive. Halal or not, industrial meat production is not a pretty picture and all us meat eaters should be ashamed and outraged.

 

Let's point that outrage where it belongs and lets not allow bigots to hijack the issue for their petty hateful purposes.

 

T

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, simple1 said:

But you are a bigot

I'm not a bigot by any stretch of the imagination - but fail to understand why uk politicians allow halal/kosher slaughter in the uk, or sharia 'courts'.

[dick dasterdly]

17 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

Lenin's brand of communism wasn't what Marx envisioned at all. Lenin's brand of communism was a system designed for aggrandizement of a small autocratic elite whose power would be protected by a massive military.

 

A hybrid of Marx AND Adam Smith's ideas are in operation, after fits and starts, in countries like Sweden, and those ideas work pretty well.

 

I agree with you that there are terrible aspects to human nature. Tribalism is in our genes. But tribalism is incompatible with the modern technological society that we've built almost in spite of our nature. The work of civilization-building is to overcome that nature, to smooth out the worst of our hard-edged instincts, to move away from tribalism.

 

I agree with you that my idealistic notion of "just getting along" seems naive. It is precisely because our tribal instinct are strong that homogeneity will not stop conflict. If we were all to wake up tomorrow speaking the same language, praying to the same god and have the same skin tone, I don't doubt for a moment that we would find ways to differentiate each other and form cliques and tribes based on *something*

 

The Greek city states warred among themselves despite the people looking the same, speaking more or less the same language and praying to the same gods.

 

We have no choice but to make it work so that different people can live together and do so in relative harmony, because the alternative is to break up into the kind of small groups of 100-150 individuals living in tight-knit extended family groups seldom encountering other groups—because that is how humans lived for millions of years and that is why we are tribal. (Even then there would be sibling rivalries to contend with).

 

It's not the world we should pine for.

 

Western Liberalism is a wonderful construct. It points to a brighter future for a humanity of strength in diversity. You can't save/protect Western Liberalism by abandoning its precepts; you can only protect/strengthen it by continuing to practice it, even in the face of those who would use terrible violence to derail you.

 

T

 

Agree entirely with the first five paras., the rest is an utopian dream.  Those in charge are far more likely to destroy us - and most life on 'our' planet - before ever reaching that stage.

Edited June 25, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Dave67]

4 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Here you go, pick one each

Youv'e just shown why the UK is in the shit it is now. People like yourself label those who wish to make a stand against terrorism Racists and Nazis. FYI My Father lost 2 brothers fighting the Nazis an I have mixed race children. How about you ,

[Thakkar]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely with the first five paras., the rest is an utopian dream.  Those in charge are far more likely to destroy us - and most life on 'our' planet - before ever reaching that stage.

Maybe so. But I say, let the f**kers kill us while we're holding hands and singing the praises of all our beautiful mixed race children, eh?

 

?

 

T

Edited June 25, 2017 by Thakkar

[simple1]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not a bigot by any stretch of the imagination - but fail to understand why uk politicians allow halal/kosher slaughter in the uk, or sharia 'courts'.

It's called freedom of religion, but these days halal rituals seem to be largely compliant to Western norms, but for some reason currently Jewish slaughter is not in the UK. Sharia Civil Courts are still subject to oversight by UK rule of law, though there are concerns cultural pressures intimidate some Muslim females not to go to UK Courts for adjudication. If Sharia Civil courts are banned the practice will go underground, so personally I cannot see the advantage to outlawing. 

[transam]

6 minutes ago, simple1 said:

It's called freedom of religion, but these days halal rituals seem to be largely compliant to Western norms, but for some reason currently Jewish slaughter is not in the UK. Sharia Civil Courts are still subject to oversight by UK rule of law, though there are concerns cultural pressures intimidate some Muslim females not to go to UK Courts for adjudication. If Sharia Civil courts are banned the practice will go underground, so personally I cannot see the advantage to outlawing. 

Underground stuff is taken out if found...Nazi underground stuff was dealt with....

 

Nip in the bud to retain your countries values, do not bend or the future will be bleak for natives..

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

You've been misled by the cruelty argument by people who have a different agenda. Let me explain:

 

It used to be that bigotry was dressed in the garb of "women's rights." Now it's dressed as "animal rights."

 

I don't buy it. If they give that much of a fk about animal rights, here's a salad, shaddup and eat that.

 

The fact is, 88% of halal meat slaughtered in Britain is stunned before slaughter. The real fight should be to ensure the remaining 12% is also stunned before slaughter. A much more important fight should be about how animals slated for meat should be treated while they are alive. Halal or not, industrial meat production is not a pretty picture and all us meat eaters should be ashamed and outraged.

 

Let's point that outrage where it belongs and lets not allow bigots to hijack the issue for their petty hateful purposes.

 

T

 

 

I agree with much of your post - but firstly there are good reasons to look back at the 'womens' rights' issue decades ago, and consider them similar to animal rights nowadays.  i.e. looked down upon as 'inferior' beings.

 

Secondly ,I'm not trying to "hijack the issue for petty, hateful reasons" - just pointing out that there is no good reason why brit. politicians should allow halal/kosher/sharia courts - that 'go against' the hard-fought civilised rights fought for and (previously) won in the uk.

[onthesoi]

There is plenty about traditional animal farming that is cruel ...but, the Islamophobes tend to ignore all that and just focus on Halal in isolation in between woolfing down bacon butties and kebabs, you won't see them boycotting kfc or nandos anytime soon as in reality they don't care a jot about animal welfare or even halal food....it's all about the Muslims !!!

[simple1]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Underground stuff is taken out if found...Nazi underground stuff was dealt with....

 

Nip in the bud to retain your countries values, do not bend or the future will be bleak for natives..

Sharia Civil Law is practised solely within some sections of the Muslim community. There would be some cultural similarities in the UK with other religious groups such as Orthodox Hindus, Orthodox Jews etc - hyperbole to compare to the threat of Nazism

[Dave67]

22 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

2 mixed race kids. Grandad served in WW1 and WW2. He wasn't a bigot and neither am I.

"making a stand against terrorism" does not require people to be marching with signs requesting a religion is banned, yet you seem to think it's perfectly OK, and justified:
 

Additionally, with your 'their' terminology you are insinuating that ALL muslims are responsible for the actions of a few.

You asked for a bigot badge, I fail to see the issue with the ones I suggested - they are pretty iconic bigot flags that used to be worn with pride by people that thought similar actions were OK:



 "Germans defend yourselves! Don't buy from Jews."

In that context "Their" means There are Muslims groups of men who rape teenage girls which is proven by their convictions. "Their" Does not mean all Muslims . Nice pictures by the way,  cheers

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

It's called freedom of religion, but these days halal rituals seem to be largely compliant to Western norms, but for some reason currently Jewish slaughter is not in the UK. Sharia Civil Courts are still subject to oversight by UK rule of law, though there are concerns cultural pressures intimidate some Muslim females not to go to UK Courts for adjudication. If Sharia Civil courts are banned the practice will go underground, so personally I cannot see the advantage to outlawing. 

"there are concerns cultural pressures intimidate some Muslim females not to go to UK Courts for adjudication. If Sharia Civil courts are banned the practice will go underground, so personally I cannot see the advantage to outlawing." 

 

Really??  Seems to me that those women disadvantaged by sharia courts (and too frightened to use uk courts) will be in the same position either way....

[transam]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Sharia Civil Law is practised solely within some sections of the Muslim community. There would be some cultural similarities in the UK with other religious groups such as Orthodox Hindus, Orthodox Jews etc - hyperbole to compare to the threat of Nazism

UK rule of law is all that matters to UK natives....The UK is the UK, not about other folks stuff....They can do their stuff in the lands they fled....

[simple1]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

"there are concerns cultural pressures intimidate some Muslim females not to go to UK Courts for adjudication. If Sharia Civil courts are banned the practice will go underground, so personally I cannot see the advantage to outlawing." 

 

Really??  Seems to me that those women disadvantaged by sharia courts (and too frightened to use uk courts) will be in the same position either way....

We have gone way off topic, so last response. MY POV is forcing underground compounds the problems..

[transam]

Just now, simple1 said:

We have gone way off topic, so last response. MY POV is forcing underground compounds the problems..

Then bring it on.........UK will deal with it........I hope.....

[Thakkar]

52 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Secondly ,I'm not trying to "hijack the issue for petty, hateful reasons" - just pointing out that there is no good reason why brit. politicians should allow halal/kosher/sharia courts - that 'go against' the hard-fought civilised rights fought for and (previously) won in the uk.

 

I'm not saying you *were* trying to hijack the issue for petty, hateful reasons.

 

I'm saying that the fight for equal rights for women is a worthy fight. That the fight for humane treatment of animals is a worthy fight. But also that many falsely put on the garb of those fighters in order to push an anti-Muslim agenda. It is a rediculous form of Right Wing political correctness, like calling a a "shuttlecock" a "shuttledick"—nobody's buying it.

 

T