Patong - The Wake

[xylophone]

14 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Lol! That was a heck of a negative rant.

Unfortunately, the examples I cited in a recent post are true and there are many more like these out there on this forum and others. However you refer to such people as "fools" because in your words, "they didn't do their due diligence".

 

What you keep forgetting is that no amount of due diligence will shield you from crooked lawyers, developers' promises that don't materialise (now or at sometime in the future) and the fact that should something go wrong you have absolutely no recourse whatsoever, (as another poster, DrDave said, "I speak from experience").

 

So you do your due diligence and your lawyer says that 90 year leases are acceptable and you check that on other lawyers websites and they say the same, so you go ahead with the deal and find out that's a crock. Or you do your due diligence and the developers promises are put in writing, however they renege on those and you can do what?

 

Once the deal is done, there is no comeback whatsoever and that is not a good scenario for investing. I cite this as an example with regards to the lawlessness/corruption here which makes something like "due diligence" a bit of a lottery.

 

I also refer to a post by Lik when he says he has no time for investors who have lost their small initial deposit. My friends who invested 18 million baht in a penthouse apartment and subsequently lost 7 million on it and who did do due diligence, would not consider a 7 million loss to be a small initial deposit.

 

Another poster has mentioned build quality, and that is something which is blatantly and patently obvious to anyone who has a modicum of common sense, especially if they see these things being built, because the construction techniques are disgraceful, pitiful, dangerous and certainly not built for the long-term.

 

So continue calling all of those who have been caught by the completely unregulated and "wild West like" market, "fools" and also continue with the glib high level feel good phrases all you like, however it does suggest that you are connected to the real estate business and have a vested interest in talking up the marketplace here.

 

Reality is, that no matter what you do it is a dangerous place in which to invest, and this on several fronts.

 

 

[AJBangkok]

I think your being way to harsh xylophone. Some of the things you mention as pitfalls would be highlighted by a simple google search. If googling something is too much trouble in doing due diligence when you are about to spend a huge amount of money then you are asking for trouble. Yes some lawyers mention 30+30+30 leases but there are probably 10 sites saying they’re not legal (enforceable ) for every one site that says they are. If a developer guarantees you a return, that’s a commercial contract and a person should understand with any contact there is a risk of nonperformance.

 

If a person wants to ignore all the red flags being thrown up and still make the investment then it’s on them. Sure there could be real instances of forged owenership but they would be the exception and not the norm.

 

I don’t know if Mysterion is in the property industry or not but what he is saying makes absolute sense to me and i’m not in the property industry although I do own multiple properties in Thailand.

 

Finally I really do enjoy all your posts but on this topic your outrage mystifies me, as I cannot reconcile the content of your posts on this subject with your board signature that you attach to all your posts which I assume reflects you credo or motto in life. I qoute:

 

”isn’t it amazing how many people tread through life carefully so that they can arrive at deaths door safely “

 

It maybe explains your sceptism over doing due diligence but it is bit ironic that you still feel the need to express the outrage you do rather than applauding Mysterion and others for taking the risks he does instead of settling for “ treading through life carefully so that they can arrive at deaths door safely “ 

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, AJBangkok said:

I think your being way to harsh xylophone. Some of the things you mention as pitfalls would be highlighted by a simple google search. If googling something is too much trouble in doing due diligence when you are about to spend a huge amount of money then you are asking for trouble. Yes some lawyers mention 30+30+30 leases but there are probably 10 sites saying they’re not legal (enforceable ) for every one site that says they are. If a developer guarantees you a return, that’s a commercial contract and a person should understand with any contact there is a risk of nonperformance.

 

If a person wants to ignore all the red flags being thrown up and still make the investment then it’s on them. Sure there could be real instances of forged owenership but they would be the exception and not the norm.

 

I don’t know if Mysterion is in the property industry or not but what he is saying makes absolute sense to me and i’m not in the property industry although I do own multiple properties in Thailand.

 

Finally I really do enjoy all your posts but on this topic your outrage mystifies me, as I cannot reconcile the content of your posts on this subject with your board signature that you attach to all your posts which I assume reflects you credo or motto in life. I qoute:

 

”isn’t it amazing how many people tread through life carefully so that they can arrive at deaths door safely “

 

It maybe explains your sceptism over doing due diligence but it is bit ironic that you still feel the need to express the outrage you do rather than applauding Mysterion and others for taking the risks he does instead of settling for “ treading through life carefully so that they can arrive at deaths door safely “ 

A nicely worded post AJBangkok and thank you for your kind words about my posts and I'm sorry if the posts on this subject seem like "outrage".

 

They are not outrage, but sadness and warnings because of the people I know who have been "stitched up" on real estate deals here, no matter how much due diligence has been done. In fact one of them posts on this forum and no amount of due diligence would have prepared him for what happened here and which would not have happened in any other country, and this applies to 2 other friends here also.

 

You mention "red flags", however I will say that they were none of these evident when friends were buying property, and maybe they were explained away/hidden, as can happen here.

 

You also speak about developer guarantees and the possibility of "nonperformance", however in the countries in which I have resided, you have recourse, here you don't.

 

Interesting that you should pick up on my motto in life (”isn’t it amazing how many people tread through life carefully so that they can arrive at deaths door safely “) however it was more aimed at reflecting the life I lived when I was a tear-away teenager making all sorts of bombs and also latterly worked in dangerous places like Libya just after the revolution (and a few years later on getting arrested at gunpoint by Libyan soldiers – loaded pistol put to my head), and again in Nigeria about the time the Biafran conflict was ending, not to mention the dangerous work on North Sea oil platforms and other locations. That is, taking chances with my life and seeking adventure and thrills, and has nothing to do with making a dud investment here and ending up at deaths door penniless!!

 

I think this has been discussed to death now and I do not have any interest whatsoever in property here now (apart from feeling sorry for the friends who were stitched up) whilst others who post may have vested interests.

 

So back to my normal posts about Patong very shortly as I am due out tomorrow night to catch up with friends.

 

 

[Mysterion]

8 hours ago, xylophone said:

Unfortunately, the examples I cited in a recent post are true and there are many more like these out there on this forum and others. However you refer to such people as "fools" because in your words, "they didn't do their due diligence".

 

What you keep forgetting is that no amount of due diligence will shield you from crooked lawyers, developers' promises that don't materialise (now or at sometime in the future) and the fact that should something go wrong you have absolutely no recourse whatsoever, (as another poster, DrDave said, "I speak from experience").

 

So you do your due diligence and your lawyer says that 90 year leases are acceptable and you check that on other lawyers websites and they say the same, so you go ahead with the deal and find out that's a crock. Or you do your due diligence and the developers promises are put in writing, however they renege on those and you can do what?

 

Once the deal is done, there is no comeback whatsoever and that is not a good scenario for investing. I cite this as an example with regards to the lawlessness/corruption here which makes something like "due diligence" a bit of a lottery.

 

I also refer to a post by Lik when he says he has no time for investors who have lost their small initial deposit. My friends who invested 18 million baht in a penthouse apartment and subsequently lost 7 million on it and who did do due diligence, would not consider a 7 million loss to be a small initial deposit.

 

Another poster has mentioned build quality, and that is something which is blatantly and patently obvious to anyone who has a modicum of common sense, especially if they see these things being built, because the construction techniques are disgraceful, pitiful, dangerous and certainly not built for the long-term.

 

So continue calling all of those who have been caught by the completely unregulated and "wild West like" market, "fools" and also continue with the glib high level feel good phrases all you like, however it does suggest that you are connected to the real estate business and have a vested interest in talking up the marketplace here.

 

Reality is, that no matter what you do it is a dangerous place in which to invest, and this on several fronts.

 

 

I also enjoy your posts about daily life in Patong.

 

However, you are obviously very passionate in your negativity about investing in Thailand property, and I respectfully disagree. 

 

One would actually expect that sort of negative passion from someone who has personally  lost a significant amount of money in Thailand real estate and has a vendetta to talk the market down here.

 

You seem to know some bigtime losers/fools/unluckies or whatever you want to call them, but that doesnt mean the market has been a loss for all. As I said before, there will be winners and losers in Thailand.  

 

Many believe that a more balanced and impassionate perspective helps one make better investment decisions. Thats why many people acknowledge both the potential risks of investing in a foreign country, and also acknowledge the potetntial rewards.

 

Sorry man, but If someone doesn't always agree with your opinions, it doesn't always mean they are “glib”, it just means they have a different opinion.

 

I have personal interest in investing in property globally, and thats why i do allot of legwork to try to know the market.Thats why i can also share information about the state of buildings and how units are maintained. I have visited too many condos on Phuket island over the last couple of years. Contrary to some impassioned folks here, the vast majority of condos are just fine and are NOT going to fall down anytime soon haha.

 

There is of course legal recourse for valid written contracts in thailand, but often the developers will cease operating(bankrupt) if things go bellyup, and then the OFFPLAN buyers are indeed screwed. Many of those poor souls are often thais, and they lose as much (or more) as anyone else.

 

As always, landlords need renters and visa versa, and thats what makes a market function. So if you despise the thought of buying, please do continue renting.

 

Can you please explain more about how your friends lost 7million baht?

Edited January 22, 2018 by Mysterion

[LivinginKata]

50 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

<snip>

There is of course legal recourse for valid written contracts in thailand, but often the developers will cease operating(bankrupt) if things go bellyup, and then the OFFPLAN buyers are indeed screwed. Many of those poor souls are often thais, and they lose as much (or more) as anyone else.

 

 

That is technically correct but the legal system is also very corrupt.  Those with unlimited funds will always defer the case for ever until the other side gives up. I know ... I've been there on behalf of a deceased friend ... done that ... told friend's daughter after 11 years that I had had enough of getting witnesses together for a court date, arrive at court, date cancelled for yet another date next year.

 

[xylophone]

43 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

I also enjoy your posts about daily life in Patong.

 

However, you are obviously very passionate in your negativity about investing in Thailand property, and I respectfully disagree. 

 

One would actually expect that sort of negative passion from someone who has personally  lost a significant amount of money in Thailand real estate and has a vendetta to talk the market down here.

 

You seem to know some bigtime losers/fools/unluckies or whatever you want to call them, but that doesnt mean the market has been a loss for all. As I said before, there will be winners and losers in Thailand.  

 

Many believe that a more balanced and impassionate perspective helps one make better investment decisions. Thats why many people acknowledge both the potential risks of investing in a foreign country, and also acknowledge the potetntial rewards.

 

Sorry man, but If someone doesn't always agree with your opinions, it doesn't always mean they are “glib”, it just means they have a different opinion.

 

I have personal interest in investing in property globally, and thats why i do allot of legwork to try to know the market.Thats why i can also share information about the state of buildings and how units are maintained. I have visited too many condos on Phuket island over the last couple of years. Contrary to some impassioned folks here, the vast majority of condos are just fine and are NOT going to fall down anytime soon haha.

 

There is of course legal recourse for valid written contracts in thailand, but often the developers will cease operating(bankrupt) if things go bellyup, and then the OFFPLAN buyers are indeed screwed. Many of those poor souls are often thais, and they lose as much (or more) as anyone else.

 

As always, landlords need renters and visa versa, and thats what makes a market function. So if you despise the thought of buying, please do continue renting.

 

Can you please explain more about how your friends lost 7million baht?

I am very passionate about warning people not to invest in Patong because of all that I have seen and all that I know.

 

Disagree we must, because you state that there is legal recourse for valid written contracts in Thailand, however it depends on who you know and who the developers are and how much they have paid to various persons in order not to get prosecuted. The brown envelope syndrome (corruption) is well known here and you well know that, so legal recourse is in most cases a myth.

 

My comment about being "glib" was not so much about you disagreeing with my opinion, but about you having a vested interest in property here and rolling out the usual, "do your due diligence and everything will be all right; you do have recourse; only fools get stung; etc etc", so I hope you can see my viewpoint on this.

 

Now here is one thing that I have to absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with in this "discussion" – – – I have seen just about every new construction going up in Patong over the last 11 years and the workmanship is absolutely appalling/disgusting/frightening and would not pass any building inspection in any other country, in any way, shape, or form and for you to suggest otherwise is not what I would expect from someone who has spent a lot of time inspecting these structures. Seriously, how you can say this is beyond comprehension.

 

As I have said in a previous post, there's no point in going round and round in circles, because you have your opinion and I have mine. Yours is based on a vested interest in the property market here, mine is based on the true experiences of friends and associates, and I know whose experiences shape my views.

 

QED.

 

 

[Mysterion]

51 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I am very passionate about warning people not to invest in Patong because of all that I have seen and all that I know.

 

Disagree we must, because you state that there is legal recourse for valid written contracts in Thailand, however it depends on who you know and who the developers are and how much they have paid to various persons in order not to get prosecuted. The brown envelope syndrome (corruption) is well known here and you well know that, so legal recourse is in most cases a myth.

 

My comment about being "glib" was not so much about you disagreeing with my opinion, but about you having a vested interest in property here and rolling out the usual, "do your due diligence and everything will be all right; you do have recourse; only fools get stung; etc etc", so I hope you can see my viewpoint on this.

 

Now here is one thing that I have to absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with in this "discussion" – – – I have seen just about every new construction going up in Patong over the last 11 years and the workmanship is absolutely appalling/disgusting/frightening and would not pass any building inspection in any other country, in any way, shape, or form and for you to suggest otherwise is not what I would expect from someone who has spent a lot of time inspecting these structures. Seriously, how you can say this is beyond comprehension.

 

As I have said in a previous post, there's no point in going round and round in circles, because you have your opinion and I have mine. Yours is based on a vested interest in the property market here, mine is based on the true experiences of friends and associates, and I know whose experiences shape my views.

 

QED.

 

 

 

Can you please explain more about how your friends lost the 7million baht? What went wrong? 

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, LivinginKata said:

 

That is technically correct but the legal system is also very corrupt.  Those with unlimited funds will always defer the case for ever until the other side gives up. I know ... I've been there on behalf of a deceased friend ... done that ... told friend's daughter after 11 years that I had had enough of getting witnesses together for a court date, arrive at court, date cancelled for yet another date next year.

 

Sounds like a nightmare. 

 

Was it a case concerning real estate? If yes, can you share a little about the case?

 

 

[LivinginKata]

19 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Sounds like a nightmare. 

 

Was it a case concerning real estate? If yes, can you share a little about the case?

 

 

 

Yes, it was case a case concerning a 30 year lease.  My friend died and the lease was supposed to transfer to his daughter, But the girl friend would not transfer. Thus the lease agreement was cancelled. Simple as that. We fought the case on the basis that the g/f acted as an agent to buy land in foreigner proxy. We won that case but the g/f just kept appealing. After 11 years I just gave up.

[Mysterion]

 

 

Was the lease in the name of both your friend and his gf or just in the name of your friend?

[LivinginKata]

8 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

 

Was the lease in the name of both your friend and his gf or just in the name of your friend?

 

Land title in g/f name. Land lease solely in my friend. He  built 2 simple houses, one for himself, the other for rental income. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by LivinginKata

[madmax2]

The simple fact is that most of us come from a home country where there are strict rules and regulations about who can hold a real estate salesman's license and even stricter rules about who can hold a real estate agents license, and a fund to compensate buyers and sellers if the agent does nor do due diligence properly before offering a property for sale where either buyer or seller lose money thru the deal thru their incompetence 

Its rafferty's rules here, the agents and their salespeople do not have to answer to anyone and have no training or qualifications that are required in most developed countries, they are not even required to get a police clearance which should be compulsory before dealing with the general public and offering their assets for sale

How many times have you heard about prospective buyers losing their deposits thru no fault of their own, it should have been returned to them   

[Patong2]

Having a few rental properties in our home country and visiting Phuket regularly each year for 20 years, we naturally looked at investing here. It was cheap then and we considered buying seriously.

Decided against it.

 

The chaos of the legal system means it is a prayer and a hope that it goes OK.

As an atheist I am left only with hope.

 

To get repairs etc done without a Thai spouse is difficult if you don't have the language.

The workmanship of most buildings is appalling, drive anywhere on the Island and you see examples of decrepit or half completed buildings. Someone lost money on them. Thankfully it wasn't me.

There are success stories and I know two close friends who have done well, lifestyle wise but I am certain their money would have been better invested in their home countries. Both have properties that are a cut above the average in quality.

 

One has been trying to sell a couple of properties for several years but has decided to keep them as rentals and is currently getting a good return because of location, but he would have preferred the capital back but the loss would be too much for him.

 

I'm firmly with Xylophone, all investing is risky but this is a very very risky place to invest. I love to hear the success stories but are very saddened by what I see.

 

We have chosen to be long term renters.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Patong2

[Mysterion]

5 hours ago, LivinginKata said:

 

Land title in g/f name. Land lease solely in my friend. He  built 2 simple houses, one for himself, the other for rental income. 

Thats  sounds like a messy situation. 

 

I suppose if he bought a foreign freehold condo in his own name that his will would have been honored and the transition to the daughter completed fairly easily.

[madmax2]

Personally like a lot of Expats i have a Thai wife and family here, the property we own is in here name and eventually goes to her completely

No way if i was single would i invest in property here which you can never own anyway

Forget condos, foreigners can only owner up to 49% of a complexe and will never have any control over how its serviced and maintained and fees charged for doing this

[Mysterion]

14 minutes ago, Patong2 said:

Having a few rental properties in our home country and visiting Phuket regularly each year for 20 years, we naturally looked at investing here. It was cheap then and we considered buying seriously.

Decided against it.

 

The chaos of the legal system means it is a prayer and a hope that it goes OK.

As an atheist I am left only with hope.

 

To get repairs etc done without a Thai spouse is difficult if you don't have the language.

The workmanship of most buildings is appalling, drive anywhere on the Island and you see examples of decrepit or half completed buildings. Someone lost money on them. Thankfully it wasn't me.

There are success stories and I know two close friends who have done well, lifestyle wise but I am certain their money would have been better invested in their home countries. Both have properties that are a cut above the average in quality.

 

One has been trying to sell a couple of properties for several years but has decided to keep them as rentals and is currently getting a good return because of location, but he would have preferred the capital back but the loss would be too much for him.

 

I'm firmly with Xylophone, all investing is risky but this is a very very risky place to invest. I love to hear the success stories but are very saddened by what I see.

 

We have chosen to be long term renters.

As mentioned before, If you stick with buying completed foreign freehold condos, your risk is generally on par with anywhere else in the world.

 

Legally, buying an existing foreign freehold condo is much easier than buying in most developed countries. You actualy dont even need a lawyer to complete the process. It is straightforward and no added cost.

 

However, if you prefer renting still, thats great for you and the landlords here.

 

 

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, madmax2 said:

The simple fact is that most of us come from a home country where there are strict rules and regulations about who can hold a real estate salesman's license and even stricter rules about who can hold a real estate agents license, and a fund to compensate buyers and sellers if the agent does nor do due diligence properly before offering a property for sale where either buyer or seller lose money thru the deal thru their incompetence 

Its rafferty's rules here, the agents and their salespeople do not have to answer to anyone and have no training or qualifications that are required in most developed countries, they are not even required to get a police clearance which should be compulsory before dealing with the general public and offering their assets for sale

How many times have you heard about prospective buyers losing their deposits thru no fault of their own, it should have been returned to them   

I agree that investors need to be extra careful when investing in a foreign country that they are not as familiar with. That applies to stocks, bonds, currency, and real-estate etc.

 

For property seekers, if they are uncomfortable with both the risk & reward, they should just rent.

 

Renting will help them and their landlords sleep well at night.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Mysterion

[LivinginKata]

1 hour ago, madmax2 said:

Personally like a lot of Expats i have a Thai wife and family here, the property we own is in here name and eventually goes to her completely

No way if i was single would i invest in property here which you can never own anyway

Forget condos, foreigners can only owner up to 49% of a complexe and will never have any control over how its serviced and maintained and fees charged for doing this

 

That's fine so long as the marriage/relationship remains stable.  We all know that many relationships with Thai ladies goes down the tubes once the lady is financially stable (has the land/house). I am one of the more lucky ones with a stable marriage now almost 22 years. But I have no illusions ... I own nothing here in Thailand. Only the money in my personal Thai bank account. That why I always have maintained at least 2 back-up plans outside Thailand.  

[LivinginKata]

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Thats  sounds like a messy situation. 

 

I suppose if he bought a foreign freehold condo in his own name that his will would have been honored and the transition to the daughter completed fairly easily.

 

Why messy ?? Quite a standard method of legally purchasing land. The company purchase is so much more complex and there are still corrupt lawyers to navigate.

 

My deceased friend was an early retired factory worker with a modest company pension. and a little bit of money. He could not have afforded a condo and he would not have wanted to live in a sterile condo.  He should just have kept on renting his simple house in Karon for 6,000 baht a month. But for some reason (g/f ?) he was talked into buying some reasonable priced land in Kata, he was cheated by his builder (friend of g/f), got in debt.  Long sad decline in his health due to g/f and money problems, and he died far too early before he even got his UK state pension. 

 

Let this tale be a caution to all forum members. 

[Mysterion]

You are right. 

 

As he was against living in a condo, he would have been much better-off  to just pay rent instead of messing around with buying land for a gf, leaseholds from a gf, and paying to build houses on a gf land. Lots of red flags there.

 

I am sure his previous landlord would have been happy to have him as a reliable long term tenant as well.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Mysterion

[xylophone]

19 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Can you please explain more about how your friends lost the 7million baht? What went wrong? 

I will go into the details of which you ask, however so that you can understand my feelings towards real estate here, I feel it best that you know the other stories so that you are aware of why I am so strongly against it, and this also for the benefit of AJBangkok.

 

1). I did mention about a friend who had a huge hotel built extremely close to his boundary line, and I believe there is a law here which prevents that happening, however not in this case. The hotel overshadowed his lovely house and swimming pool and presented him with noise and views of air-conditioners running all day long.

 

He tried to employ two local lawyers to fight the developer however they were "frightened off" by the powerful developer with friends in high places. Having plenty of money he then employed a top-quality lawyer from Bangkok who fought the case for him and won it, with the developer having to buy his house for 27 million baht.

 

He was warned that he was treading on dangerous ground and that he should be on the lookout in case someone decided to pull up alongside of him on his motorbike and put a bullet in his head. Luckily that never happened, however in light of a shooting here about 10 years ago where it did happen to a Canadian guy embroiled in a real estate feud, it seemed very real to him and others. Once all of this was settled he moved away from Patong to relative obscurity.

 

2). The same developer extended his hotel and did exactly the same thing to a friend whose house was next door and he had no luck with local lawyers in fighting the case so he made contact with someone in Bangkok who took the case on, however that has been dragging on now for four or five years and despite paying out money from time to time, nothing ever materialises.

 

I do think that a similar thing is happening to that which LiK described in his post.

 

3). A friend of mine who works overseas and visits Phuket frequently decided to buy a villa here and rent it out, in the care of his lawyer, whilst he was away working.

 

He returned a few years back only to find someone else laid claim to his villa and had a Chanote with his own name on it. To cut a long story short my friends lawyer had decided to go to the land office and get a new Chanote issued in his name (no doubt some brown envelopes changed hands) and he later sold this villa as his, to someone else.

 

Obviously my friend thought this would be an easy case to pursue because the lawyer had no real claim on the house and it was obvious there were some underhand dealings with the land office, and anyway the supposedly new owner had been sold a house which in reality the lawyer didn't own.

 

No such luck with an easy case because this has been going on now for between four and five years and my friend has gotten absolutely nowhere mainly because of stalling tactics by the lawyer and "friends" in high places, however it has cost him quite a bit of money.

 

So he has lost his villa, has nowhere to live here and the case against the lawyer is dragging on and on and no progress has been made. Again much like that which LiK described in his post.

 

4). I lived in a little soi here in Patong and when the houses in it were built, they were sold for around 2.5 million baht, this in 2003/4.

 

There have been quite a few for sale in this place, however the sales were few and far between, if ever taking place. But late last year one was sold because the guy was getting desperate, what with working overseas and travelling back to Patong, so it was marketed through many real estate agents and he eventually sold it for 2.4 million baht, which was the best offer he could get.

 

So despite making improvements on the house and it being in good order, including having a little plunge pool in the garden, surrounded by a high wall for privacy, it fetched less in 2017 then he paid for it in 2004.

 

So much for the appreciation of land and property here because even taking into consideration inflation, he has made a loss.

 

5). Two friends of mine own a largish two-bedroom apartment fairly close to Jungceylon in Patong and now, approximately seven years after it being built, it needs some major repairs. Not the usual ones which have been occurring like lights falling out of the ceiling, windows leaking, no P traps in any of the wastewater outlets, ceiling fans burning out, water pipes bursting and so on, but major external stuff because water is leaking from the outside into their apartment, and not just round the windows.

 

Of major concern is the fact that a huge crack has appeared just below the ceiling line, heading from one side of the apartment to the other, and this crack is so big you could damn near get your finger in it. To all intents and purposes it looks like it has been made by a major movement in the building, or at least in part of the building.

 

They considered selling it last year, but no one would consider buying it because not only were these things visible, it had a bad reputation for such things occurring.

 

Now it is having to be fixed, but no-one is taking responsibility for the major repairs. So it rests with the owners who have been quoted huge sums in order to fix this, but knowing the state of the building they are not sure that this will be the end of it.

 

6). A friend of mine bought an apartment (60 m², separate bedroom with ensuite, kitchen etc) overlooking a golf course, some eight years ago and recently sold it, not out of urgency but because he wanted to downsize his investments here and although it was in good condition he lost 38% on his original buying price. It was in good condition and needed nothing doing to it.

 

7). A recent acquaintance and his wife bought some land and built a house on it here in Patong, however it bordered on a development which was being constructed by some well-connected and powerful people and they fought him about ownership of his land, although his title deeds and chanote clearly showed his boundaries. It got to a point where the developer put barbed wire across their swimming pool, making life very uncomfortable for them.

 

And they continuously put pressure on him and his wife to the point of “forcing” them to sign over a portion of their land, and because of this (and another saga of noisy neighbours from a  nearby rental property) they decided to sell up and leave.

 

8). Now down to the friends who lost 7 million on their apartment here......... it was new when they inspected it and everything looked great, and It had three double bedrooms, well fitted out and seemingly well finished, with lovely unobstructed sea views and in a quiet location just back off the road.

 

They would live in it for a while and travel overseas, before coming back to spend many months in Patong. However after a while problems appeared and it would seem as though the fittings and fixtures were not the quality which they were purported to be because many things needed fixing, including some of the plumbing.

 

The peace and quiet promised never materialised because construction work was started nearby and would start early in the morning and would continue for months upon months, then it would cease for a while as if the developer had run out of money, and then start again.

 

They became completely disillusioned with this and decided to rent it out for a while whilst they went overseas. When they came back, the place had been trashed to a certain extent and many other things needed fixing and repairing as well as repainting.

 

For them that was the last straw, so they had it fixed and put it on the market, losing 7 million baht on the final sale, this after having it for sale for at least a couple of years.

 

So much for the value of property appreciating here.

 

Now these things have happened to people whom I know and have met and there are many others similar to this out there on the Internet, including one poor chap (whom I would suppose you would call a fool) who was posting on TV as to how he could get out of his 90 year lease when selling his property.

 

A few respondents sadly informed him that the 90 year lease was invalid, and indeed a court in Phuket ruled fairly recently that because the 90 year lease was invalid, even the first 30 years was declared invalid, so this poor guy has...."what"?

 

I have only quoted a few examples of people I know, so that you can see how they have shaped my feelings about property investment here, however those feelings have been reinforced when I know of Thai folk who have invested in the now derelict/defunct Phanason development in in Nanai and who have seemingly lost their money.

 

However, I don't know of anyone who has invested in the ACE condominium project but they have been very vocal in the past because they want their deposits returned and the developers are known to them and the BIB, but nothing has happened (I wonder why?).

 

So with investing in Phuket or Patong one not only runs the gauntlet of corruption and all that goes with it, but also of the lies and deceit which seem inherent in property here, not to mention poor building practices and all the problems that this entails now and in the future.

 

Hopefully you can see things from my point of view.

 

 

[LivinginKata]

51 minutes ago, xylophone said:

<snip>

However, I don't know of anyone who has invested in the ACE condominium project but they have been very vocal in the past because they want their deposits returned and the developers are known to them and the BIB, but nothing has happened (I wonder why?).

 

 

I  do know a younger Aussie guy who paid a big deposit maybe even monthly payments in Ace.  He rented a home from me saying he only wanted a 7 moth term as his new apartment at Ace would be ready by then. I have to admit I straight up laughed when he told me that. He thought I must be crazy to laugh yet he still rented our place for more than a year..  As we now all know that Ace project was a scam and this young man lost over 2 million baht.

[madmax2]

You have to register a building plan here and have it approved, but once the builders especially the spec builders have got the approval they then ignore the approved plans and build exactly what they want to and not according to the plans to cut costs and save money.

There are no Government Building inspectors to make sure the building is built to approved plans

One of these spec builders has built houses near us of which one was sold to a foreigner, he now has people in ever week doing ongoing repairs to his house, after watching the house being built its not surprising the new owner is having all these problems

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I will go into the details of which you ask, however so that you can understand my feelings towards real estate here, I feel it best that you know the other stories so that you are aware of why I am so strongly against it, and this also for the benefit of AJBangkok.

 

1). I did mention about a friend who had a huge hotel built extremely close to his boundary line, and I believe there is a law here which prevents that happening, however not in this case. The hotel overshadowed his lovely house and swimming pool and presented him with noise and views of air-conditioners running all day long.

 

He tried to employ two local lawyers to fight the developer however they were "frightened off" by the powerful developer with friends in high places. Having plenty of money he then employed a top-quality lawyer from Bangkok who fought the case for him and won it, with the developer having to buy his house for 27 million baht.

 

He was warned that he was treading on dangerous ground and that he should be on the lookout in case someone decided to pull up alongside of him on his motorbike and put a bullet in his head. Luckily that never happened, however in light of a shooting here about 10 years ago where it did happen to a Canadian guy embroiled in a real estate feud, it seemed very real to him and others. Once all of this was settled he moved away from Patong to relative obscurity.

 

2). The same developer extended his hotel and did exactly the same thing to a friend whose house was next door and he had no luck with local lawyers in fighting the case so he made contact with someone in Bangkok who took the case on, however that has been dragging on now for four or five years and despite paying out money from time to time, nothing ever materialises.

 

I do think that a similar thing is happening to that which LiK described in his post.

 

3). A friend of mine who works overseas and visits Phuket frequently decided to buy a villa here and rent it out, in the care of his lawyer, whilst he was away working.

 

He returned a few years back only to find someone else laid claim to his villa and had a Chanote with his own name on it. To cut a long story short my friends lawyer had decided to go to the land office and get a new Chanote issued in his name (no doubt some brown envelopes changed hands) and he later sold this villa as his, to someone else.

 

Obviously my friend thought this would be an easy case to pursue because the lawyer had no real claim on the house and it was obvious there were some underhand dealings with the land office, and anyway the supposedly new owner had been sold a house which in reality the lawyer didn't own.

 

No such luck with an easy case because this has been going on now for between four and five years and my friend has gotten absolutely nowhere mainly because of stalling tactics by the lawyer and "friends" in high places, however it has cost him quite a bit of money.

 

So he has lost his villa, has nowhere to live here and the case against the lawyer is dragging on and on and no progress has been made. Again much like that which LiK described in his post.

 

4). I lived in a little soi here in Patong and when the houses in it were built, they were sold for around 2.5 million baht, this in 2003/4.

 

There have been quite a few for sale in this place, however the sales were few and far between, if ever taking place. But late last year one was sold because the guy was getting desperate, what with working overseas and travelling back to Patong, so it was marketed through many real estate agents and he eventually sold it for 2.4 million baht, which was the best offer he could get.

 

So despite making improvements on the house and it being in good order, including having a little plunge pool in the garden, surrounded by a high wall for privacy, it fetched less in 2017 then he paid for it in 2004.

 

So much for the appreciation of land and property here because even taking into consideration inflation, he has made a loss.

 

5). Two friends of mine own a largish two-bedroom apartment fairly close to Jungceylon in Patong and now, approximately seven years after it being built, it needs some major repairs. Not the usual ones which have been occurring like lights falling out of the ceiling, windows leaking, no P traps in any of the wastewater outlets, ceiling fans burning out, water pipes bursting and so on, but major external stuff because water is leaking from the outside into their apartment, and not just round the windows.

 

Of major concern is the fact that a huge crack has appeared just below the ceiling line, heading from one side of the apartment to the other, and this crack is so big you could damn near get your finger in it. To all intents and purposes it looks like it has been made by a major movement in the building, or at least in part of the building.

 

They considered selling it last year, but no one would consider buying it because not only were these things visible, it had a bad reputation for such things occurring.

 

Now it is having to be fixed, but no-one is taking responsibility for the major repairs. So it rests with the owners who have been quoted huge sums in order to fix this, but knowing the state of the building they are not sure that this will be the end of it.

 

6). A friend of mine bought an apartment (60 m², separate bedroom with ensuite, kitchen etc) overlooking a golf course, some eight years ago and recently sold it, not out of urgency but because he wanted to downsize his investments here and although it was in good condition he lost 38% on his original buying price. It was in good condition and needed nothing doing to it.

 

7). A recent acquaintance and his wife bought some land and built a house on it here in Patong, however it bordered on a development which was being constructed by some well-connected and powerful people and they fought him about ownership of his land, although his title deeds and chanote clearly showed his boundaries. It got to a point where the developer put barbed wire across their swimming pool, making life very uncomfortable for them.

 

And they continuously put pressure on him and his wife to the point of “forcing” them to sign over a portion of their land, and because of this (and another saga of noisy neighbours from a  nearby rental property) they decided to sell up and leave.

 

8). Now down to the friends who lost 7 million on their apartment here......... it was new when they inspected it and everything looked great, and It had three double bedrooms, well fitted out and seemingly well finished, with lovely unobstructed sea views and in a quiet location just back off the road.

 

They would live in it for a while and travel overseas, before coming back to spend many months in Patong. However after a while problems appeared and it would seem as though the fittings and fixtures were not the quality which they were purported to be because many things needed fixing, including some of the plumbing.

 

The peace and quiet promised never materialised because construction work was started nearby and would start early in the morning and would continue for months upon months, then it would cease for a while as if the developer had run out of money, and then start again.

 

They became completely disillusioned with this and decided to rent it out for a while whilst they went overseas. When they came back, the place had been trashed to a certain extent and many other things needed fixing and repairing as well as repainting.

 

For them that was the last straw, so they had it fixed and put it on the market, losing 7 million baht on the final sale, this after having it for sale for at least a couple of years.

 

So much for the value of property appreciating here.

 

Now these things have happened to people whom I know and have met and there are many others similar to this out there on the Internet, including one poor chap (whom I would suppose you would call a fool) who was posting on TV as to how he could get out of his 90 year lease when selling his property.

 

A few respondents sadly informed him that the 90 year lease was invalid, and indeed a court in Phuket ruled fairly recently that because the 90 year lease was invalid, even the first 30 years was declared invalid, so this poor guy has...."what"?

 

I have only quoted a few examples of people I know, so that you can see how they have shaped my feelings about property investment here, however those feelings have been reinforced when I know of Thai folk who have invested in the now derelict/defunct Phanason development in in Nanai and who have seemingly lost their money.

 

However, I don't know of anyone who has invested in the ACE condominium project but they have been very vocal in the past because they want their deposits returned and the developers are known to them and the BIB, but nothing has happened (I wonder why?).

 

So with investing in Phuket or Patong one not only runs the gauntlet of corruption and all that goes with it, but also of the lies and deceit which seem inherent in property here, not to mention poor building practices and all the problems that this entails now and in the future.

 

Hopefully you can see things from my point of view.

 

 

Thanks for sharing those stories.

 

I can definitely understand better why you feel the way you do, based on the bad experiences of your friends.

 

Seems like an unfortunate mixture of bad luck and perhaps some poor decision making and/or bad timing in most case.

 

Foreigners buying landed homes is an extremely risky venture here. No protections, as it is illegal i the first place. Not for the faint of heart.

 

If I owned the apartment with the major structural problem in #5, i would strongly consider organizing an enbloc sale with the other owners. If the location is decent, they can probably get back their investment value back or make a significant profit based on the land value.

 

I do hope you also have few friends like mine who are making a good yield and/or have made a good capital gain and are happy wih their investments.

 

In all seriousness, please do let me know if you have any other friends that are very motivated to sell their existing foreign freehold condo. I may know someone who would be interested in buying.

 

 

[xylophone]

6 minutes ago, madmax2 said:

You have to register a building plan here and have it approved, but once the builders especially the spec builders have got the approval they then ignore the approved plans and build exactly what they want to and not according to the plans to cut costs and save money.

There are no Government Building inspectors to make sure the building is built to approved plans

One of these spec builders has built houses near us of which one was sold to a foreigner, he now has people in ever week doing ongoing repairs to his house, after watching the house being built its not surprising the new owner is having all these problems

Yes I have seen examples of "cutting costs and saving money" in places here as I have helped quite a few people with their electrical problems (being a qualified electrical engineer from the City and Guilds of London Institute in my younger days) and have been absolutely mortified by what I have seen – – totally unsafe and life-threatening practices.

 

Now here's food for thought: – how many people here are in danger of dying from electrocution on a daily basis?

 

Well, going by the number of electrical shower units that I have been asked to look at, I would say that at least 50% of the ones that I have inspected have not had an earth installed (despite the shower unit stating specifically that one must be installed) so these people are in danger of dying through electrocution in the shower.

 

Now this is a frightening thought and as you have quite rightly said, there is no one here who can inspect these buildings to see if they are constructed to plan, so you really don't know what you are buying. And no one to turn to if remedial work is needed -- – totally unregulated and with no recourse available.

[madmax2]

The problem is there are no properly trained and qualified trades people here, they all learn on the job and are taught by someone who has no recognized trade qualifications themselves either

When we had 2 new air conditioners installed they just drilled a hole on the brick wall put a bolt into it which they attached the earth wire to

I called the people we bought the air conditioners from and complained,they told me that was how they(didnt) earth all the air conditioners they installed

I told them i would get Samsung out to inspect the installation, no need they sent the installers back straight away and they then earthed the air conditioners properly to my satisfaction

My neighbor who does not have a clue about electrical installations had his air conditioner installed by the same people with no earth as well, i have told him its not earthed but he has done nothing about it, if he gets electrocuted its his own bad luck for not listening 

[xylophone]

Back to "Patong the Wake"............

 

Journeyed out again last night, for the second time since my return to the place and sure there were plenty of people around, but many of the bars were struggling, and as mentioned before, things seem to go in cycles here, and then not always in "sensible" cycles!

 

Whilst there were bars struggling in Soi Freedom and more than six had closed down, newer small bars have opened up in the car park which was located off Soi Sansabai, and in the four times that I have been passed them, they have been very poorly frequented, perhaps mirroring that which is happening elsewhere, but they are still being built/bought!

 

There are still empty bars in the resurrected Tiger as well as empty and poorly frequented bars in new Tiger, and this is the supposedly high season, so that says much about the type of people now visiting this place. Two people I know who own bars here have said that they are going to have to make radical changes because the turnover is not supporting their outgoings and I suppose that once one factors in and amortises their initial key money outlay, that exacerbates the situation.

 

There is a new band in Soi Freedom, brought in because the old band was poor at timekeeping, although in all other respects they were a very good band. The new one, however, doesn't seem to have fared much better with regards to timekeeping, according to a bar owner friend, and more to the point any banter which they have with the few punters around, was in Thai and of course the punters didn't understand. Nor did they understand the words to the way too many Thai songs which were delivered, with a few farangs just shrugging their shoulders and walking away!

 

One would have thought that the band would have played their songs in the language which just about all of the punters in the Soi would have understood, thereby making it a place to linger and spend money and also to return – – perhaps that should have been the job of the owner of the Soi?

 

Bangla itself was busy with walking traffic but not much in the way of bar traffic, if you see what I mean, although the rain did drive a few people into bars which was welcomed!! More Russians than in previous years, but then that has already been mentioned, however they still seem to think that they can bring their plastic bags full of 7-Eleven bought beer into a music bar and settle into the scene without any problem, and don't seem to understand why they are asked to leave or buy a drink.

 

I did notice a few small groups of what seemed to be single Chinese girls around the place however they didn't frequent the bars, but I was told by a friend that the New York bar was just about half full of Chinese a few nights ago, perhaps that's why the singer has learnt a few Chinese songs – – a smart move if the buyer wants to attract this clientele.

 

As the night turned into early morning the next day I noticed a bevy of black, big arsed hookers roaming around the place looking for business, along with the usual lady boys (or should I say more than usual number) touting for business.

 

Driving home past Soi Banzaan, the mess left by the stalls/night market and their customers was disgusting and I'm surprised I didn't see rats and dogs wandering in amongst the rubbish, although the rat population in that area is huge.

 

Some things haven't changed........... the little enclave of bars with live music in Nanai road (next to Don's "Yes" bar) was still devoid of people, much as it has been since it first opened; the large and lavishly refurbished restaurant/bar in the Chang Residence hotel has been all but empty since its second or third reopening, and the owners of a little roller blind bar in the entrance to Nanai 6 won't be too pleased that one has opened up next to them (literally attached to them) called the "Experimental Cocktail Bar". This in the place where four or five other small businesses have failed in the past and I wonder if this will be the next to do so?

 

On a brighter note, the Da Moreno restaurant has been pretty full in the many times I have passed by so they will be pleased with that custom as will the coffee bar/restaurant a little further along the road, which always seems to be full of Italians and friends, especially in the late morning to midday period.

 

I wasn't here for the Christmas and New Year period, but a few friends and a couple of bar owners have said that, "somehow it just wasn't the same" and I think they were referring to the fact that the Christmas and New Year spirit wasn't in evidence as before, and perhaps the merriment, revelry and spending were somewhat subdued?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by xylophone

[schlog]

Is it only me? On days when there is no cruiser at Patong Bay it feels like the end of the high season is knocking at the door.

[LivinginKata]

"Experimental Cocktail Bar" - I noticed that place today and I laughed. Forgive me but I call that Soi Tham Di.

[xylophone]

4 minutes ago, LivinginKata said:

Forgive me but I call that Soi Tham Di.

Have noticed this elsewhere LiK.........re-named or am I missing the point??