Decree on foreign labour looks like a rush job to academic

[Happyman58]

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

I know of more than a couple of similar incidents around these parts. They prowl around pretending to be customers in restaurants extorting money from the chefs and managers when they do something slightly non chef like.

I can believe that My wife also has a restaurant It has got to the stage i go down there and not game enough to do anything I just sit there If i offer just say to help put the plates out i cant or wash up I cant It has got so bad There is big money involved now so they will be trying harder to catch you Thanks Bangkok gov you just found out how to make more money  Its called fleecing the farangs more

[Happyman58]

17 minutes ago, newatthis said:

I think that statement, which is just fear mongering, has been answered many times before.

You are right about that I think this law is about farang who go down and help in restuarants shops etc That work is considered for Thais even though if u hang a sign up for staff nobody ever applies

[maewang99]

my post is "on topic" as this article uses "academic" for something that it doesn't apply to.... at all 

 

at home, academic = Ivory Tower 

.... someone that should be busy doing..... academics.

not here..... the "academics"..... who have totally failed (get an 'F') in inspiring a LoVe oF LEarNing in the general population.... a Zero score.... even after being 'normalized' by applying a book of random numbers (to assuage the soul of the..... "academic")....

 

such that.... and as a direct result.... on every topic du jour.. the general population needs to be..... advised... by academics.

wonderful.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by maewang99

[fullcave]

14 hours ago, kamahele said:

In the US, fines for employers of foreign workers can reach up to $11,000 per employee. The foreigner working without permit is to be deported and possibly banned. I would think other countries have similar laws to protect their own work force. 

2

Perhaps Thailand will introduce "sanctuary" cities, free healthcare, drivers licenses etc. for "undocumented" workers and similar laws to protect their own workforce just like they do in the US.    

 

 

[Italian guy]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

the act could result in corruption in the form of officials seeking and accepting bribes.

No way! Really? Corruption in Thailand??? 

[Jester69]

19 hours ago, the guest said:

This xenophobic country has surely sent a very clear message, "we don't want foreigners" !

It means they do not want cheaper labour from Chinese , Laos or Vietnamese predominately -- nothing to do with not want foreigners!

[alanferdi]

20 hours ago, the guest said:

This xenophobic country has surely sent a very clear message, "we don't want foreigners" !

I agree...I lived in Thailand from 2006 - 2016. This was getting clearer and clearer.... We do not want foreigners!!! Thats not a problem for foreigners. There are many countries to choose from within the region that welcome an educational input into their communities. What is going to eventually take place. 1. Foreigners with credentials and experience will not come for penny. So sponsorship and costs will go up. 2. Locals recruited with poor credentials and teaching standards will be what will become the norm. Education will backslide rather than benchmark.

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

Last part of your sentence  Why do illegal labour come to Thailand is because the lazy Thais wont work Its that simple Everyone one of you who go out and look must wonder why there are so many men sitting around doing nothing. When the government handed out 3,000 baht to the poor a while back i saw the people standing there waiting for that money Lots of men standing there  well with in working age Why are they not working? I started work when i was 15 an apprentice. I worked till i was 60 Very hard being a builder  Here they never seem to start Building sites here full of Khmer Mayamer Laos workers why? Because Thais are to lazy to go ask for a job and after one days work they seem to just disappear So why blame the employers? By the way i am retired so i dont employ workers anymore lol

 

I am blaming the employers for breaking the law, not for hiring foreign labour.   Foreign labour will come here if there are work, they won't come if there is no work for them....  Who is allowed in to work is up to the government to determine.  

 

With regards to my home country, Canada, I am very much pro-immigration... and have no problem with a very high level of immigration....  in fact I don't believe in trade agreements that does not allow free movement of labour as part of the agreement..... BUT....  I do not believe that the government should go easy with regards to illegal immigration....  because in the end you are creating a situation where you punish those that are trying to enter legally and allowing illegal labour to jump the queue.  If there is demand for labour (in this case illegal) then you will encourage illegal immigration, but if you get rid of the demand by enforcing that employers can only hire legal labour.... you cut off that demand.   No matter how much you try to wall up a border, if there is a will there is a way to get under, over, around that wall.  

 

It is not the employee that should have to worry about labour laws -- it should be solely the domain of the employer.

[Happyman58]

28 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

 

I am blaming the employers for breaking the law, not for hiring foreign labour.   Foreign labour will come here if there are work, they won't come if there is no work for them....  Who is allowed in to work is up to the government to determine.  

 

With regards to my home country, Canada, I am very much pro-immigration... and have no problem with a very high level of immigration....  in fact I don't believe in trade agreements that does not allow free movement of labour as part of the agreement..... BUT....  I do not believe that the government should go easy with regards to illegal immigration....  because in the end you are creating a situation where you punish those that are trying to enter legally and allowing illegal labour to jump the queue.  If there is demand for labour (in this case illegal) then you will encourage illegal immigration, but if you get rid of the demand by enforcing that employers can only hire legal labour.... you cut off that demand.   No matter how much you try to wall up a border, if there is a will there is a way to get under, over, around that wall.  

 

It is not the employee that should have to worry about labour laws -- it should be solely the domain of the employer.

But cannot you see The jobs are there but getting locals to apply for them is very difficult I know because my wife who is Thai wants a waitress  She hangs up the big sign so everybody can read it and nobody applies I dont know how to fix this situation but i am starting to believe Ok the Thais Know lots of immigrates work on building sites But there mentality is ok let them do it because then we dont have to do it Honest we are seriously thinking of going to a labour agency to get somebody and u can bet your bottom dollar it will be all foreign workers on their books We would sooner give a Thai a job but its like selling "Ice to an eskimo"

[chickenrunCM]

19 hours ago, Belzybob said:

That would be wonderful, fingers crossed.

If they Would grown up, they wouldn´t fine the workers, they would fine the employers only, like in all developed countrys!

Employer is responsible where the worker is working, about his papers and the correct salary.

So if somebody works illegal (what is in 99% the cheapest paid jobs, around 8000 to 10000 thb and then they get fined hundreds thousands and 5 years in prison. 

This people work illegal, because it´s hard to get a work permit, you have to pay bribes, and use an agent. 

There is no help from the goverment for this migrants workers. They don´t speak the language, they dont know the steps. 

I really hope all illegal workers would leave Thailand. Then you wouldn´t be able on any holidays on the Island or in Chiang Mai. 

No dinner in restaurants or a drink in a bar. Only in Chiang Mai, Koh Chang, Koh Samui, Koh Tao, Koh Pagnan are more then 50.000 Burmese working, most of them without correct papers.

They can get a 100.000 thb fine if the cleaning lady helps some hours in the kitchen or do the laundry. 

The jind of work permit they have are not applicable to the daily work life in a small bussines, may be in a factory but not in a small or middle large company

[chickenrunCM]

16 hours ago, White Tiger said:

The way I read this the legislation is aimed at the Thai employers, not the foreign workers. I welcome it if, for example, it persuades school directors to provide the documentation and assistance needed by foreign teachers working at their schools in order to help them get their work permits. I've lost count of the number of stories I've read about foreign teachers struggling to get "legal" because the school they teach at won't help them to get a work permit - I've been in that situation in the past too.

 

If the law is enforced against schools and school directors (as employers) then it might also result in a clear out of any unsuitably qualified teachers as they will find it more difficult to satisfy the requirements to obtain a work permit - meaning the schools decide not to employ them; instead schools who want a foreign teacher will be forced to hire suitably qualified teachers and pay the rate that those teachers fetch on the market. 

i think you didn´t read the law, if the directer send the teacher to another building what is not in his work permit he get a fine of 4000 thb but the employee gets 100.000 thb, this sounds good for you?

[chickenrunCM]

15 hours ago, Jasonron said:

I don't understand why people get scared. It clearly states that only those who violate the laws will be under threat and punished. Of course this is nothing new.. these rules and regulations have been here for ever. We all know that we have to abide by our contract with employers and have proper work permits and Visas. If this is implemented strictly then it is goodbye for several cheap Charlies disguised as teachers and advisers just extending their holidays .. 

no this is not about the some teachers, it is about all the hundret thausands workers who keed this country running day by day. 

We have a restaurant in Chiang Mai and we are looking since 2 years for staff, we would employ 4 Thais but never ever any Thai shows up to apply, The only persons you can get ( I not countig the western foreigners who like to apply) are Burmese people. Every second person in hospitality in CM are burmese. Since 1 month the police checking all bussines and also the areas where the Burmese living, now our last cook left, and with him húndrets of others in the last 2 days. 

Most of them even not have a passport. In´s not so easy to get a passport if you belong o one of the tribes in Burma. And even then, try to apply for a work permit in Thailand with a Burmese passport, bribes and agents everywhere, nearly no change to do it by your selve, it costs you before you start working 20.000 to 30.000 baht, what is nearky 8 to 10 month burmese salary in myamar. 

Do you really think this peopel like to work without work permits, without health insurance? To get blackmailed by every police officer, taxi driver or landlords, to scary to drive motorbikes, because of the check points.

You can enforce labour work if you have a clear and easy way for people to apply, Thailand has less than 1% unemployment, 

and you can´t get any thai staff, even uneducated unskilled are impossible to get!!!!

[chickenrunCM]

16 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

So true and annoy me.
If a Thai wife, for example, has a restaurant and her foreign husband helps her to shop and carry the heavy drinks boxes,
the married couple is then in danger of getting high fines up to 800,000 Baht plus prison for it.
And there are unfortunately many money-loving officials who do not miss something like that.
I could puke.
A legislation which is clearly directed against foreigners married with Thais.
It's time to pack the bags.

this is not true, you not get fined when you shopp with your wife or carry things,

even customers help to carry things from my car to the kitchen every time when I come from macro,

this a re all this stupid rumors. post clear facts or use this story only for your wife as a reason for not helping her.

we have a restaurant, even my 16 years old son helps there nearly every day , now he works in the summer school and he is not Thai!

I help my girlfriend every day, she wuld leave me if I would help her in the restaurant.

[natway09]

Latest comments by the PM are that the new law is too tough.

How the hell can a new law go into effect without his knowledge I will never understand

 

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, natway09 said:

Latest comments by the PM are that the new law is too tough.

How the hell can a new law go into effect without his knowledge I will never understand

 

It didn't become law without his kowledge, especially when you consider the way it became law.

 

It was rushed in using an unusual amount of urgency, there's zero way he didn't personally allow this.

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, chickenrunCM said:

this is not true, you not get fined when you shopp with your wife or carry things,

even customers help to carry things from my car to the kitchen every time when I come from macro,

this a re all this stupid rumors. post clear facts or use this story only for your wife as a reason for not helping her.

we have a restaurant, even my 16 years old son helps there nearly every day , now he works in the summer school and he is not Thai!

I help my girlfriend every day, she wuld leave me if I would help her in the restaurant.

I'd keep quiet about that if I were you - one day they will come for you and they will leave either with you or a wallet full of your money. They like to fine people between 20,000 to 50,000 Baht per tiny incident.

[Joebuzz]

On 6/29/2017 at 5:05 AM, Arkady said:

It is definitely very strange. This decree is not just an amendment to existing laws.  It is a replacement.  In Section 3 it cancels the 2008 Working of Aliens Act and 22016 Decree on recruitment of foreign labour.  It was approved by the cabinet in March before the new constitution came into effect but has been passed after the constitution came into effect when new laws have to go through a public hearing process, allowing stakeholders to give their views.  Before the 2008 Working of Aliens Act was passed there were detailed public hearings.  Thai industry bodies and foreign chambers of commerce were rightly and properly invited to air their views.   There are huge implications for Thai employers and for foreign investors and in the interests of the economy and society as a whole one would have thought that they and any other stakeholders, such as Thai labour groups would have been allowed their say this time too, through a normal legislative process. 

 

Normally legislation through Royal decrees is reserved for emergency legislation, particularly relating to financial and tax issues, as well as security issues.  They seem to be representing this as a security issue.     

They will "represent" it as whatever they see fit as the gov't transitions to communism.

[Redline]

10 hours ago, alanferdi said:

I agree...I lived in Thailand from 2006 - 2016. This was getting clearer and clearer.... We do not want foreigners!!! Thats not a problem for foreigners. There are many countries to choose from within the region that welcome an educational input into their communities. What is going to eventually take place. 1. Foreigners with credentials and experience will not come for penny. So sponsorship and costs will go up. 2. Locals recruited with poor credentials and teaching standards will be what will become the norm. Education will backslide rather than benchmark.

That's what is and has been happening.  It's called a downward spiral

[bkkcanuck8]

3 hours ago, Joebuzz said:

They will "represent" it as whatever they see fit as the gov't transitions to communism.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of communism.... the transition that is taking place is to an authoritarian regime - but by no means is it communist in nature.... 

[Happyman58]

On 6/29/2017 at 9:36 PM, tomacht8 said:

So true and annoy me.
If a Thai wife, for example, has a restaurant and her foreign husband helps her to shop and carry the heavy drinks boxes,
the married couple is then in danger of getting high fines up to 800,000 Baht plus prison for it.
And there are unfortunately many money-loving officials who do not miss something like that.
I could puke.
A legislation which is clearly directed against foreigners married with Thais.
It's time to pack the bags.

So true

[White Tiger]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 4:11 PM, tomacht8 said:

I understand your argument, but a Thai director of a government school will certainly not have to pay 800,000 baht or go to jail.
The problem with the non-registered foreign teachers could certainly be solved differently.
The problem are the undifferentiated work laws here.
With this law is certainly not achieved such a goal, more on the contrary.
The law opens the door for corrupt officials who are now able to go on extortion hunting.

I understand your cynicism, and I share it. But it is the law.  I guess that in practice, if they don't want to prosecute a school director, then they also won't want to prosecute the foreigner for not having the work permit - since guilt on the part of a foreigner would mean guilt on the part of the school director.

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, White Tiger said:

I understand your cynicism, and I share it. But it is the law.  I guess that in practice, if they don't want to prosecute a school director, then they also won't want to prosecute the foreigner for not having the work permit - since guilt on the part of a foreigner would mean guilt on the part of the school director.

"But it is the law."
Yeah.
But who makes the law?
What is the intention from that law?
Is that a good law?
Law can be right or wrong.
Bad or good.
This law threatens people who only work for there food, with 5 years of imprisonment, same as criminals who have robbed a bank.
Unreasonably high this punishment.
 

Edited July 9, 2017 by tomacht8