Trial of Thailand's Yingluck fails to break Shinawatra machine

[Eric Loh]

52 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Do you really think that any move to democracy will ensure that corruption, cronyism, inequality, and a complete reform of the judiciary, police and armed forces will actually happen with the like of the politicians currently lining up to get their snouts back into the trough. If you think that is likely to happen, you must have a lot of faith in the Thai political system. 

 

 

 

 

 

It might have real reforms if elected governments are allowed to serve their full term. If they don't measured up to people expectation, they will be voted out and next government will have to work harder to implement reforms of they will be booted out by the people. I know this process is strange to you as your believed in military invention is unshakable.

[Monomial]

8 minutes ago, heybruce said:

 

When corrupt authoritarian rule is replace by democracy the democracy usually goes through a period of corruption, which is tolerated by the people who are initially happy just to have democracy.  Eventually they raise their standards and insist on democracy without corruption.  That is what is happening in Central and South America, most prominently Brazil.  Democracy has never been allowed in Thailand long enough for this to happen here.

 

 

 

Nice ivory tower theory. Doesn't work that way in reality. Completely different cultures. Look at Cambodia for an example of what will happen in SE Asia if we do it your way. That is what Thaksin was trying to set up and emulate.

 

Personally I will take the current Thai system over the current system in Cambodia. But if you want Thaksin democracy, there is all kinds of it across the border to the east.

 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Nice ivory tower theory. Doesn't work that way in reality. Completely different cultures. Look at Cambodia for an example of what will happen in SE Asia if we do it your way. That is what Thaksin was trying to set up and emulate.

 

Personally I will take the current Thai system over the current system in Cambodia. But if you want Thaksin democracy, there is all kinds of it across the border to the east.

 

The history of Cambodia over the last 100 years have been radically different from Thailand.  However if you want to make comparisons, look across the border at Myanmar.  That's what happens when the military refuses to allow democracy.  That's the system you are supporting.

[Monomial]

Just now, heybruce said:

The history of Cambodia over the last 100 years have been radically different from Thailand.  However if you want to make comparisons, look across the border at Myanmar.  That's what happens when the military refuses to allow democracy.  That's the system you are supporting.

 

Agreed.

 

Let's hope Thailand can find the happy medium that is neither Thaksin democracy nor a military state. I think the new constitution does that pretty well....allowing the election of a Thaksin appointed strongman, but leaving the military in place to check the power of the PTP.

 

I think the system right now is about the best that can be hoped for. It is fitting that it is physically sitting between a state of "extreme democracy" and state of "extreme militarism".

 

 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Agreed.

 

Let's hope Thailand can find the happy medium that is neither Thaksin democracy nor a military state. I think the new constitution does that pretty well....allowing the election of a Thaksin appointed strongman, but leaving the military in place to check the power of the PTP.

 

I think the system right now is about the best that can be hoped for. It is fitting that it is physically sitting between a state of "extreme democracy" and state of "extreme militarism".

The current constitution is a military constitution, designed to keep elected officials from having any real power. 

 

If you want democracy in Thailand, go back to the 1997 constitution, keep the army in the barracks, and let the constitution stay in place for a few election cycles.  Of course the military, and expats who like the peace of autocratic military rule, won't agree to that.

[Monomial]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

The current constitution is a military constitution, designed to keep elected officials from having any real power. 

 

If you want democracy in Thailand, go back to the 1997 constitution, keep the army in the barracks, and let the constitution stay in place for a few election cycles.  Of course the military, and expats who like the peace of autocratic military rule, won't agree to that.

 

Every thinking person who understands why the 1997 constitution was fundamentally flawed won't agree to that.

 

Again, if you like that system, spend some time in Cambodia. Then tell me again if you really like that system.  Thailand needs checks and balances. The 1997 constitution did not provide enough of those. The new constitution does a better job of it.

[Becker]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Do you really think that any move to democracy will ensure that corruption, cronyism, inequality, and a complete reform of the judiciary, police and armed forces will actually happen with the like of the politicians currently lining up to get their snouts back into the trough. If you think that is likely to happen, you must have a lot of faith in the Thai political system. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ensure? Of course not. But it is at least a possibility, unlike what happens under yet another junta.

Could quote Einstein's definition of insanity but it's been done to death.

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Every thinking person who understands why the 1997 constitution was fundamentally flawed won't agree to that.

 

Again, if you like that system, spend some time in Cambodia. Then tell me again if you really like that system.  Thailand needs checks and balances. The 1997 constitution did not provide enough of those. The new constitution does a better job of it.

The new constitution is not worth the paper it is written on.  As soon as it was "approved" in the sham referendum the junta made changes to accommodate someone who can't be mentioned here.   The powers that be will continue to change it however they like. 

 

New constitutions need a burn-in period while the elected officials and the voters determine how it will be used.  This happened with the US Constitution and it happened with Thailand's 1997 constitution.   Thaksin pushed the limits of checks and balances, but not to the degree that they could not have been reset using the courts and elections. 

 

I predicted in the months after the coup that the junta would write a constitution that would allow the appearance of democracy while keeping all real power behind the scenes.  That's what they did.

 

BTW, I have spent time in Cambodia.  The system there, with no free press or independent monitoring of elections, is not democracy.  Thailand's 2011 election had independent monitoring and a comparatively free press.  It was democratic.  It's unlikely that future elections under the military constitution will have these independent checks, and will not be democratic.

[bangrak]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

The 1932 revolution; correct you on that. Not even an elected government. You need history lesson. 

 

Did this coup seized power from an elected government like rest of the coups. Yes same and all destructive and brought Thailand backwards. Contribute nothing constructive. Your love for the junta is worthy of admiration but sadly pathetic. 

Allow me to, once more, regret the absence of the person who, before you, wrote here under the name 'Eric Loh'.

I leave it to your appreciation, probably based on the 'fragmentary' history (small cap) which is generally propagated, to argue about the 'events of 1932' not being a 'coup'. IMO, more technically, it was more a 'palace putsh' than a 'coup'. But a 'revolution'... Oh, well.

And to your next sentence, I'd, definitely, say NO, in opposition to you, as, in the undisputable truth of FACTS, this 'coup' did NOT 'seize power from an elected government'! Turn it and twist it as you wish, BUT: time is a hard evidence to beat, and, when the 'coup' happened, would you dare to betray the hard facts telling that, then, there was NO 'elected government' in place? No rhetorical avoidance maneuvers, please: that is just untrue.

[bangrak]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

It might have real reforms if elected governments are allowed to serve their full term. If they don't measured up to people expectation, they will be voted out and next government will have to work harder to implement reforms of they will be booted out by the people. I know this process is strange to you as your believed in military invention is unshakable.

Do I read you correctly? Outside of writing about 'elected governments', which can not exist as such in Thailand, as in a general election the voting citizens 'only' elect MPs, not any 'government', nor PM(!), and that it are these who give a majority vote to a candidate-PM 

and that it is for His Majesty the King to appoint the PM of Thailand.

When it is your 'view' of 'democracy' that a, any, government should be 'allowed to serve its full term', as if it would have received kind of a blank check to do whatever it wants during for the length of its full normal tenure, without any checks and balances, you should tell us the name of one, single, democratic country where it is the rule. Let me point out though that this 'vision' of yours is totally in-line with what Thaksin and his Shins wanted to do, with an allmighty Executive Power under him, in control of the Lawmaking and the Judicial Powers. And, you know what? That is what is called: a dictatorship! (But he said it himself, democracy is not his goal...)

I personally don't like any military in(ter)vention, but do you consider it strange that, to choose of, I'd have the lesser of two evils: the military.

And i don't believe they are 'unshakable': that is no doubt what they want to make all believe, and do all what is in their, widely extended powers, to 'pour into concrete'. But you might know what one shoot of bamboo, one root of ivy, can do to the most powerfull concrete wall... With time indeed, but is time not the largest wealth of China, sorry, Asia...?

[starky]

10 hours ago, heybruce said:

You object to an elected party that you falsely accuse of keeping rice subsidies off-budget and that attempted, then withdrew, and amnesty program.  Yet you support a military junta that keeps passes military budgets in without discussion and grants amnesty for all coup leaders.

Might as well beat your head against the wall for all the good it will do you. Fanatical fan boys think Prayut and his jack booted cronies are doing good for the majority of the population. 

[candide]

5 hours ago, bangrak said:

Do I read you correctly? Outside of writing about 'elected governments', which can not exist as such in Thailand, as in a general election the voting citizens 'only' elect MPs, not any 'government', nor PM(!), and that it are these who give a majority vote to a candidate-PM 

and that it is for His Majesty the King to appoint the PM of Thailand.

When it is your 'view' of 'democracy' that a, any, government should be 'allowed to serve its full term', as if it would have received kind of a blank check to do whatever it wants during for the length of its full normal tenure, without any checks and balances, you should tell us the name of one, single, democratic country where it is the rule. Let me point out though that this 'vision' of yours is totally in-line with what Thaksin and his Shins wanted to do, with an allmighty Executive Power under him, in control of the Lawmaking and the Judicial Powers. And, you know what? That is what is called: a dictatorship! (But he said it himself, democracy is not his goal...)

I personally don't like any military in(ter)vention, but do you consider it strange that, to choose of, I'd have the lesser of two evils: the military.

And i don't believe they are 'unshakable': that is no doubt what they want to make all believe, and do all what is in their, widely extended powers, to 'pour into concrete'. But you might know what one shoot of bamboo, one root of ivy, can do to the most powerfull concrete wall... With time indeed, but is time not the largest wealth of China, sorry, Asia...?

"...what Thaksin and his Shins wanted to do, with an allmighty Executive Power under him, in control of the Lawmaking and the Judicial Powers. And, you know what? That is what is called: a dictatorship!"

Actually that's exactly what the Junta and its allies are doing with the new constitution. Thaksin dreamed it, the Junta did it!

[Ricardo]

3 hours ago, candide said:

 Thaksin dreamed it, the Junta did it!

 

I feel a new political-slogan coming-on  ...  "Thaksin Thinks !  Military Acts !" 

 

Sorry  ...  I couldn't resist the thought. 

[Eric Loh]

14 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

I feel a new political-slogan coming-on  ...  "Thaksin Thinks !  Military Acts !" 

 

Sorry  ...  I couldn't resist the thought. 

Not thoughts but reality - Infrastructure projects, UHC, village fund, EEC of course subsidies. Nothing original from military think tank except ways to maintain their stranglehold for next 20 years & draconian laws to suppress free expression. 

[Pridilives]

9 hours ago, bangrak said:

Do I read you correctly? Outside of writing about 'elected governments', which can not exist as such in Thailand, as in a general election the voting citizens 'only' elect MPs, not any 'government', nor PM(!), and that it are these who give a majority vote to a candidate-PM 

and that it is for His Majesty the King to appoint the PM of Thailand.

When it is your 'view' of 'democracy' that a, any, government should be 'allowed to serve its full term', as if it would have received kind of a blank check to do whatever it wants during for the length of its full normal tenure, without any checks and balances, you should tell us the name of one, single, democratic country where it is the rule. Let me point out though that this 'vision' of yours is totally in-line with what Thaksin and his Shins wanted to do, with an allmighty Executive Power under him, in control of the Lawmaking and the Judicial Powers. And, you know what? That is what is called: a dictatorship! (But he said it himself, democracy is not his goal...)

I personally don't like any military in(ter)vention, but do you consider it strange that, to choose of, I'd have the lesser of two evils: the military.

And i don't believe they are 'unshakable': that is no doubt what they want to make all believe, and do all what is in their, widely extended powers, to 'pour into concrete'. But you might know what one shoot of bamboo, one root of ivy, can do to the most powerfull concrete wall... With time indeed, but is time not the largest wealth of China, sorry, Asia...?

Look like you don't understand what is representative democracy! if you think junta less too evils you not understand about anything. Look at picture this newspaper of Yingluck and see everybody love her prayuth never have same because he bigger too evil.

[bangrak]

7 hours ago, candide said:

"...what Thaksin and his Shins wanted to do, with an allmighty Executive Power under him, in control of the Lawmaking and the Judicial Powers. And, you know what? That is what is called: a dictatorship!"

Actually that's exactly what the Junta and its allies are doing with the new constitution. Thaksin dreamed it, the Junta did it!

Guess who stopped Thaksin and his Shins from making their dictatorial dreams come true, hmm...?  IMO, the lesser of two evils it is to have the military in control, they are 'less bad' for the country. 

[worgeordie]

"We're going to need a bigger hammer"

regards worgeordie

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, bangrak said:

Guess who stopped Thaksin and his Shins from making their dictatorial dreams come true, hmm...?  IMO, the lesser of two evils it is to have the military in control, they are 'less bad' for the country. 

Ok, one more who prefers military rule to democracy.

 

As to your claim that the Shinawatra's had dictatorial dreams, how I wish I was allowed to compare that to a certain military government.  But at least in the case of the Shinawatra's it was an elected government every time.

Edited July 19, 2017 by heybruce

[Baerboxer]

On 7/18/2017 at 8:10 AM, Reigntax said:

 

And all the junta patsies will be rehashing the old rhetoric

 

And all the Shin lovers will be offering the usual apologies, distortions and trying to divert!

[Baerboxer]

10 hours ago, Pridilives said:

Look like you don't understand what is representative democracy! if you think junta less too evils you not understand about anything. Look at picture this newspaper of Yingluck and see everybody love her prayuth never have same because he bigger too evil.

 

No, those few well chosen rent-a-crowd luvvies, with their little red flowers snapping selfies are not "everybody". 

 

The Shin support lasts as long as the baht keeps flowing. 

[Baerboxer]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:34 AM, Eric Loh said:

Try explaining that to the farmers. Does it matter !!! The farmers still love her and the party and that's what matter. 

 

Does that include all the farmers who marched to Bangkok when they didn't get paid, the very poorest farmers who were excluded from the scheme, those driven to suicide by the worry of financial loss caused by late payment and broken promises, those who incurred more debt due to late payment?

 

"The farmers" - there are probably some who might still love her and PTP; and some who hate them and have seen through the lies and scams.

 

 

[Pridilives]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Does that include all the farmers who marched to Bangkok when they didn't get paid, the very poorest farmers who were excluded from the scheme, those driven to suicide by the worry of financial loss caused by late payment and broken promises, those who incurred more debt due to late payment?

 

"The farmers" - there are probably some who might still love her and PTP; and some who hate them and have seen through the lies and scams.

 

 

Look like somebody need to read article one first page again. Article say ptp more popular now. Understand!!

[Baerboxer]

"The Yingluck rice scheme made rice farmers prosperous from having a reliable income that came on time," said Paisan Pachanda, 59, a rice farmer and co-operative leader in Khon Kaen, a major commercial hub that lies on a plateau in the centre of the northeast region.

 

On time - guess these reporters missed all the protests and hoohar about the PTP regime defaulting on payments, making promises to pay and defaulting again and eventually paying very late?

 

Just as they seem to have missed the fact Yingluck was removed by a court for an illegal abuse of power not as a result of protests against the rice scheme.

 

<deleted> journalism. It seems today's journalists are lazy and just accept the prepared press releases from paid lobbyists. Reuters, BBC, AFP all do it. The attention to detail is poor. Makes you wonder how many other international stories they produce are also so sketchy on the real detail.

[Baerboxer]

14 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Look like somebody need to read article one first page again. Article say ptp more popular now. Understand!!

 

That's a quote from a PTP Party Member.  And of course he'd know wouldn't he   His boss told him!

 

But, I agree, this should be tested in a free and fair election. 

 

Hopefully all political parties will be encouraged to produce manifestos, campaign without interference, and take part in debates so the Thai people can make their choice.

 

The US and recent British elections were bad examples of how elections should be. Maybe the West is going backwards. Although the French was better.

 

I sincerely hope Thailand's election, which is scheduled for mid next year is problem free. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Baerboxer

[Pridilives]

34 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

"The Yingluck rice scheme made rice farmers prosperous from having a reliable income that came on time," said Paisan Pachanda, 59, a rice farmer and co-operative leader in Khon Kaen, a major commercial hub that lies on a plateau in the centre of the northeast region.

 

On time - guess these reporters missed all the protests and hoohar about the PTP regime defaulting on payments, making promises to pay and defaulting again and eventually paying very late?

 

Just as they seem to have missed the fact Yingluck was removed by a court for an illegal abuse of power not as a result of protests against the rice scheme.

 

<deleted> journalism. It seems today's journalists are lazy and just accept the prepared press releases from paid lobbyists. Reuters, BBC, AFP all do it. The attention to detail is poor. Makes you wonder how many other international stories they produce are also so sketchy on the real detail.

You sound same Donald trump.

555555

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Pridilives

[Baerboxer]

11 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Sound like Donald trump.

not good sound!

 

Trump may be obnoxious, sexist, racist and a buffoon but even he's some times right about the press. Probably more by luck than intelligence in his case.

 

Do you deny Yinglck was removed by a court for an abuse of power? Now old time journalists wouldn't have missed that. They might even have questioned if the punishment i.e removal from office was in relation to the context of events.

 

Similarly, do you deny the issues, and severe problems, caused to farmers by late payments for pledged rice? Again a good old time journalist would have mentioned that too for balance and also maybe explored it more.

 

Sadly Western news media is no longer always a good source of factual unbiased journalism. And Western politicians, for all their arrogance and superiority complex, are often not suitable to lecture Asian, African and South American countries about democracy.

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Baerboxer

[Prbkk]

Whoever wins it would be good to see a bit of Parliamentary debate Taiwanese style in Thailand. When the debate gets boring, throw a few punches, swing a few handbags, grapple, throttle, knee to the groin, hair pulling. Far more entertaining and no less effective.

[Reigntax]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And all the Shin lovers will be offering the usual apologies, distortions and trying to divert!

 

Strange that those who oppose the junta and respect the rule of law and the rights of all people are grouped together as Shin lovers. 

 

It could just be they are democracy supporters with sufficient understanding to realise that even the worst democratically ellected government will always be better for a country than the best non elected, self appointed or military government.

 

Even the non performing Democrats would be far better in government than the current junta.

 

This is not my opinion, its based on history unless you can advise of a single non elected government that both advances the quality of life of the people, advances the country without the sole purpose being to fill the pockets of the leader and his cronies

Edited July 19, 2017 by Reigntax

[Reigntax]

6 hours ago, Prbkk said:

Whoever wins it would be good to see a bit of Parliamentary debate Taiwanese style in Thailand. When the debate gets boring, throw a few punches, swing a few handbags, grapple, throttle, knee to the groin, hair pulling. Far more entertaining and no less effective.

 

So thats what they call defeating the opposition in parliament.