Digital Nomads

[perthperson]

16 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

but then on the other side they are not consuming those services that many take for advantage -- the two largest being health and education (in Canada at least) along with roads, public defenders and an eventual pension or other income

Did it ever occur to you that services such as universal healthcare are dependent on citizens paying their taxes.  I hope Canada has a means of identifying tax dodging nomads so they can be charged full wack for any services they have failed to contribute to providing. 

[HooHaa]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not true. That is only for the changes put in place for migrant workers. The working alien act of 2008 is still in effect.

seems quite clearly stated by the authorities nate gets amnesty right now.

would love to see them try to fine youtube as his employer

 

[MaksimMislavsky]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Digital Nomads evading taxes

Being DN doesn't necessarily mean evading taxes. That's unrelated. Nothing prevents one from paying taxes where income is generated ("home country") before getting the funds to, say, Thailand. On the other hand, one doesn't need to be a nomad to do the evasion thing. If it can be done whilst abroad, it can be equally easily done without going anywhere.

 

Bragging about the amount one (allegedly) paid in tax, exactly, does suggest an envy-/confidence-related issue.

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Did it ever occur to you that services such as universal healthcare are dependent on citizens paying their taxes.  I hope Canada has a means of identifying tax dodging nomads so they can be charged full wack for any services they have failed to contribute to providing. 

Canada is not the United States - we don't tax you just because you are a citizen.

 

We tax those that are a resident (for tax purposes), and it is not that easy to become a non-resident.  You have to be out of the country for at least 3 years with no plans of returning, you have to fill in the appropriate forms to ensure that you will not be surprised, you have to close all your accounts, you have to shut down your corporations, sell off your property etc.   You are no longer covered for health-care, you are no longer covered by CPP since you no longer have pensionable income -- in fact you are no different than any other foreigner who dies not reside in Canada.

 

Then if you are not resident anywhere else for tax purposes and are a citizen -- they will deem you a resident for tax purposes.

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

A majority of "digital nomads" pay tax in the country they are earning income from - in many cases they are still incorporated there.  Those people still have access to local services in that country, but not here.  Regardless of whether you are a pensioner who is not taxed here, a digital nomad who is not taxed here, or a tourist who is not taxed here.... you are using exactly the same services here (in most cases - basically roads).

You are now moving away from the main point of being a Digital Nomad and trying to relate DMs to pensioners and tourists is pathetic. A businessman based in another country paying taxes in that country but travelling (i.e on holiday) and working is not a problem.

 

People who deliberately live in a cheaper country with good weather and work from there over the internet but pay no taxes to that country on monies earnt from that work are tax evaders and the lowest class of person you can come across. They rely on others to pay the taxes that allow the country they live in to be a safe place to be,

 

No matter what way you look at it, anyone who deliberately works in a foreign country using the internet as their means of access to their work and does not pay tax to that country for the money earnt from this work is a tax evader, cheat and low life.

[perthperson]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have to be out of the country for at least 3 years with no plans of returning, you have to fill in the appropriate forms to ensure that you will not be surprised, you have to close all your accounts, you have to shut down your corporations, sell off your property etc.

 

Do the Canadian nomads comply with the "man's" demands ?  

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, MaksimMislavsky said:

Being DN doesn't necessarily mean evading taxes. That's unrelated. Nothing prevents one from paying taxes where income is generated ("home country") before getting the funds to, say, Thailand. On the other hand, one doesn't need to be a nomad to do the evasion thing. If it can be done whilst abroad, it can be equally easily done without going anywhere.

 

Bragging about the amount one (allegedly) paid in tax, exactly, does suggest an envy-/confidence-related issue.

So what part of earning money while working in a foreign country but not paying tax to that country on monies earnt did you not understand and why try to spin the discussion away from Digital Nomads not paying taxes?

 

I was accused of being envious (for money reasons) and simply pointed out I had no reason to be envious. You apparently want to escalate a simple response to a full scale argument by baiting.

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, perthperson said:

 

Do the Canadian nomads comply with the "man's" demands ?  

Most do -- unless they take up tax residency somewhere else.  I eventually sold my house, but I still have my corporation in Canada. Americans must do (since they are taxed on world-wide income as a citizen).  Americans that have never lived in the US must do even if they were born in Canada and resided their whole life there.... but then luckily.... Canada has higher tax rates making the filing of US tax forms .... amount to virtually no income.... just paper.  

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[perthperson]

Just now, bkkcanuck8 said:

Most do -- unless they take up tax residency somewhere else.  Americans must do (since they are taxed on world-wide income as a citizen).  Americans that have never lived in the US must do even if they were born in Canada and resided their whole life there.... but then luckily.... Canada has higher tax rates making the filing of US tax forms .... amount to virtually no income.... just paper.  

Thanks for an evasive response............ 

 

8 minutes ago, Flustered said:

No matter what way you look at it, anyone who deliberately works in a foreign country using the internet as their means of access to their work and does not pay tax to that country for the money earnt from this work is a tax evader, cheat and low life.

Flustered sums up the "nomad" situation eloquently 

[lkv]

15 minutes ago, Flustered said:

No matter what way you look at it, anyone who deliberately works in a foreign country using the internet as their means of access to their work and does not pay tax to that country for the money earnt from this work is a tax evader, cheat and low life.

Let the authorities decide who's a tax evader and who isn't. Until then, many of us will be using tax efficient solutions as we deem fit. :)

Edited July 19, 2017 by lkv

[JackThompson]

Billionaires evade millions in taxes.  Giant corporations pay next to nothing.  But people get really-steamed when some small-timer entrepreneur gets to live in a nice place, with lower overhead, so he can survive on an income which was driven into the ground back-home, by competition with outsourced-labor in countries like India - and even millions of Indian immigrants into his native-country - with whom he Must Compete - like it or not.  That competition wrecked his prospects of the decent life in his home-country.  But the last generation, who was afforded the good life, pre-globalization, which used to exist for anyone willing to work, now sneer at him.  "Go back and pay taxes to fund my pension," they say.  "Never mind we did nothing as your future was being destroyed, because we wanted labor and goods on the cheap."

 

That the entrepreneur merely  adapted to circumstances created by the powerful, well beyond his control - and the apathy of his own countrymen.  But rather than wallowing in pity and handout-welfare back home, churning out babies he couldn't afford to support (creating a tax-burden for others), he found a way to live an enjoyable life elsewhere.  But some think he should "pay for the welfare" of those others back home.  Why?  Why support a nation-state which betrayed you?  What did those people ever do for us?  They were so short-sighted, that they wouldn't even stop buying "Made in China" goods, as factories, and great jobs, were being literally put on ships and moved to China.

 

FYI - I am a citizen of the USA, so I don't get any tax-breaks.  I pay taxes to pay for services I can NEVER use.  I wish it were easier to set up a business here - and easier to terminate my citizenship.  Unfortunately, those things are expensive - something only those with more wealth than I, can afford to do.

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, perthperson said:

Thanks for an evasive response............ 

 

Flustered sums up the "nomad" situation eloquently 

I don't think I was evasive... my corporation is in Canada -- it earns the money -- it pays the tax.  If it pays me a salary, it must report it to the government so it would be insane for me to try and pretend otherwise.... since they already have the income tax deducted at source.  If I pay out a dividend, that also has to be reported.  Nothing evasive about it.  If I don't pay myself then the corporation has to pay income tax -- since income would be all income earned - $0 in salary.

[Flustered]

Reading the previous posts from these Digital Nomads on this and other threads drives home one very salient fact.

 

Digital Nomads consider themselves above tax laws and are entitled to travel and live wherever they like and also chose to pay taxes wherever they like. They are constantly asking for advice on how to obtain visas through the back door because they have used up the legitimate route.

 

Great, just continue but don't cry foul when arrested one day when working away at your laptop by the swimming pool or bar of your hotel in Thailand for not having a work permit.

 

You can spin and spin but whatever way you look at it, working over the internet while in Thailand (or other countries) is work and you need a work permit. Also as it could be argued that this type of work could be carried out by a Thai, you are on even dodgier ground.

 

It will not be long before someone posts that they have been arrested for this and posts on TVF "what can I do?"

 

You pays your money and takes your chance. No sympathy at all for anyone caught.

[blorg]

22 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Did it ever occur to you that services such as universal healthcare are dependent on citizens paying their taxes.  I hope Canada has a means of identifying tax dodging nomads so they can be charged full wack for any services they have failed to contribute to providing. 

You lose access to these services in your home country if you leave it for too long. And you don't have to be gone too long, as little as a year in many cases and you are no longer entitled to home country social services.

 

This is the case in most countries. It's certainly the same with the UK, the NHS does NOT work on a citizenship basis but rather on a residence basis. If you are Thai but living in the UK, you are entitled to free NHS. If you are a Brit but living in Thailand, you are NOT entitled to free NHS.

 

This comes up as a shock to some British expatriates from time to time, who have lived abroad for a long time and then go back to discover that they are no longer UK residents and have to actually pay for NHS access like any other foreigner.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/expat-health/11571256/British-expats-from-outside-Europe-must-pay-for-NHS-hospital-care.html

 

By this argument, anyway, pensioners should be paying their taxes where they are resident, to provide for these services where they are resident.

[Timwin]

27 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Digital Nomads who evade taxes in the country they are working from and enjoying are nothing more than scum. To be pitied, not envied.

 

So for example typical IT-consultant earning 6000-12000 dollars per month, living in a 50000 Bath rental apartment with expensive cars and motorbikes parked in garage, is "scum"? Or outright owning such a nice place. He or she pays ten times more in various taxes than your average Thai worker with 15000 Baht monthly salary.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, blorg said:

You lose access to these services in your home country if you leave it for too long. And you don't have to be gone too long, as little as a year in many cases and you are no longer entitled to home country social services.

 

This is the case in most countries. It's certainly the same with the UK, the NHS does NOT work on a citizenship basis but rather on a residence basis. If you are Thai but living in the UK, you are entitled to free NHS. If you are a Brit but living in Thailand, you are NOT entitled to free NHS.

 

This comes up as a shock to some British expatriates from time to time, who have lived abroad for a long time and then go back to discover that they are no longer UK residents and have to actually pay for NHS access like any other foreigner.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/expat-health/11571256/British-expats-from-outside-Europe-must-pay-for-NHS-hospital-care.html

 

By this argument, anyway, pensioners should be paying their taxes where they are resident, to provide for these services where they are resident.

I see many pensioners complain vehemently that they are not covered by NHS because "they paid into it all their life".... but NHS is not a savings program it is insurance and by leaving the country you are no longer eligible for insurance (as it should be).

[perthperson]

3 minutes ago, blorg said:

This comes up as a shock to some British expatriates from time to time, who have lived abroad for a long time and then go back to discover that they are no longer UK residents and have to actually pay for NHS access like any other foreigner.

You really should learn to read links before posting them ..............

 

"  Former UK residents who return there to settle will be eligible for free NHS care immediately, according to the spokesman"  

 

 

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Reading the previous posts from these Digital Nomads on this and other threads drives home one very salient fact.

 

Digital Nomads consider themselves above tax laws and are entitled to travel and live wherever they like and also chose to pay taxes wherever they like. They are constantly asking for advice on how to obtain visas through the back door because they have used up the legitimate route.

 

Great, just continue but don't cry foul when arrested one day when working away at your laptop by the swimming pool or bar of your hotel in Thailand for not having a work permit.

 

You can spin and spin but whatever way you look at it, working over the internet while in Thailand (or other countries) is work and you need a work permit. Also as it could be argued that this type of work could be carried out by a Thai, you are on even dodgier ground.

 

It will not be long before someone posts that they have been arrested for this and posts on TVF "what can I do?"

 

You pays your money and takes your chance. No sympathy at all for anyone caught.

I don't disagree with the nature of Thailand's labor law - it is archaic - but it is the law.  But taking Thailand out of the picture would only push those same entrepreneurs, elsewhere.

 

So, how do you feel about nations using the VAT tax, instead of the Income Tax, so that this loophole can be closed, without forcing people to be stuck somewhere they don't want to live?

[perthperson]

Just now, JackThompson said:

I don't disagree with the nature of Thailand's labor law - it is archaic - but it is the law.  But taking Thailand out of the picture would only push those same entrepreneurs, elsewhere.

 

So, how do you feel about nations using the VAT tax, instead of the Income Tax, so that this loophole can be closed, without forcing people to be stuck somewhere they don't want to live?

Because raising VAT would have a deleterious effect on poor people.? 

 

Much better to force the digital pests into paying tax or remove them from the country.

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I don't disagree with the nature of Thailand's labor law - it is archaic - but it is the law.  But taking Thailand out of the picture would only push those same entrepreneurs, elsewhere.

 

So, how do you feel about nations using the VAT tax, instead of the Income Tax, so that this loophole can be closed, without forcing people to be stuck somewhere they don't want to live?

The VAT tax does many other things that are beneficial.  If you replace Business Income tax with a VAT tax -- you treat local manufacturers on equal footing (or better) than foreign manufacturing since you collect the tax on all business activity within the jurisdiction and all your exports don't have the tax embedded in it - but it is not considered a subsidy.  GST in Canada is similar (but rather small) in nature and to overcome the "regressive nature" you can get rebates for the tax during the year to offset the tax that you pay on income under a certain threshold - while all economic activity above that threshold is taxable.  It also is not a feast or famine tax and provides a more certain ability to finance programs.

[Flustered]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I don't disagree with the nature of Thailand's labor law - it is archaic - but it is the law.  But taking Thailand out of the picture would only push those same entrepreneurs, elsewhere.

 

So, how do you feel about nations using the VAT tax, instead of the Income Tax, so that this loophole can be closed, without forcing people to be stuck somewhere they don't want to live?

I am all for a straight VAT tax (certain items exempt) rather than income tax but that is another subject.

 

10 minutes ago, Timwin said:

 

So for example typical IT-consultant earning 6000-12000 dollars per month, living in a 50000 Bath rental apartment with expensive cars and motorbikes parked in garage, is "scum"? Or outright owning such a nice place. He or she pays ten times more in various taxes than your average Thai worker with 15000 Baht monthly salary.

If you as an IT consultant are living and working over the internet in Thailand then yes, you are a tax evader and scum relying on others to allow you to live in comfort and safety. Just because you pay sales tax and rent etc, does not make you an honest person if you then deliberately flout the law and evade taxes.

 

Your choice. If you have chosen to break Thai law I hope you can take your punishment like a man if and when you are caught evading taxes and not having a work permit. Eventually people who do this are caught because they brag about it in bars etc and make enemies very easily.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Flustered

[rwdrwdrwd]

 

34 minutes ago, Flustered said:

So what part of earning money while working in a foreign country but not paying tax to that country on monies earnt did you not understand and why try to spin the discussion away from Digital Nomads not paying taxes?

 

I was accused of being envious (for money reasons) and simply pointed out I had no reason to be envious. You apparently want to escalate a simple response to a full scale argument by baiting.

What part of the Thai tax legislation on foreign income do you not understand?

The law is that foreign income is taxable if remitted to Thailand in the year earned, if someone does not do that then they are in breach of the  law, however if they do comply then they are fully tax compliant - just like any other Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, with foreign derived income.

Digital nomads can't "choose to pay tax wherever they like" - they are subject to the same tax rules as everybody else. Yes they can structure their finances to minimise tax, but this is not tax evasion.

Edited July 19, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[bamukloy]

They do, its called VAT.

 

In Thailand this mean many farang will probably pay a higher tax bill than many Thais.

 

It never stops amazing me how many jealous farangs want to use western thinking here.

 

To many on here trying to attack the so call DMs.

 

Really make me to think.they just sound like jealous people who got carve up by a bargirl and live on mama noodles on a 15k baht  a month on pension

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Because raising VAT would have a deleterious effect on poor people.? 

 

Much better to force the digital pests into paying tax or remove them from the country.

The deleterious effect on poor people can easily be offset by monthly credits for taxes paid for a given threshold.... i.e. if the tax is 17% then you credit the poor 17% and the deemed poverty level is 25,000 acorns -- you give them at the beginning of each month 365 acorns so that they can pay that tax without being out of pocket.

[blorg]

9 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Much better to force the digital pests into paying tax or remove them from the country.

And why should pensioner pests not pay tax here? Pensioner pests are here, using exactly the same services as digital nomads, in a country that they have never paid a cent in tax to in their lives, why are they entitled to be here exactly? The EXACT argument you are using about why digital nomads should pay tax to Thailand equally apply to why pensioners should pay tax to Thailand, does it not?

 

I'd also wager that a pensioner pest is A LOT more likely to end up in some way being a draw on Thai social services than a young healthy digital nomad is.

 

EDIT: pensioner -> pensioner pests

Edited July 19, 2017 by blorg

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, blorg said:

@Flustered- a pension is income.

 

Siam Legal say income tax is due on:

 

• Pensions and retirement pay brought into Thailand

http://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax.php

 

Here's an opinion from the Thai Revenue that a Norwegian national retired here is liable to Thai taxes if there are here over 180 days a year: 

 

In Thailand pension income is regarded as assessable income under Section 40 (1) of the Revenue Code. A resident of Thailand must declare his worldwide income on the basis that the income received from abroad in a tax year must be brought into Thailand within the same year, based on Section 41 paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code. Therefore for a Norwegian individual who has stayed in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year shall declare his worldwide income including pension income received in Norway and file tax return using the tax return form P.N.D. 90 or P.N.D. 91 (if the individual only receives pension income, P.N.D. 91 will be used).

 

http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

 

I'm aware there are various loopholes and I'm aware of the "income brought into country same year" thing, so that if you put your income into savings and then only bring in the savings the following year that may exempt you. But I'm also aware that many retirees don't do this and have their pension paid directly into a Thai bank account.

 

I'm also aware that this is not a focus at all for Thai authorities, but it is very much a "grey area".

 

I'm only mentioning this as people are getting up on their high horse and some of these very same people may not be totally compliant according to the letter of the law themselves.

Double taxation agreements – if you for example pay withdrawal tax in you home country of your retirement pension's monthly payouts, and your home country has a double taxation agreement with Thailand, then your retirement pension is not taxable in Thailand. 

 

Note, that taxation of foreign income only apply, if the income is taken (transferred) into Thailand the same year as it's earned; otherwise it's savings.

 

Some countries double-taxation agreement is a benefit, as you may pay same tax rate as in Thailand, even withdraw, and the Thai rate can be lower than the local foreign rate; for example US dividend withdrawal tax, where a 15% rate is used due to "tax treaty" when the registered permanent address is in Thailand, instead of 30%...

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Because raising VAT would have a deleterious effect on poor people.? 

 

Much better to force the digital pests into paying tax or remove them from the country.

I agree 100% with the first part - referenced in my earlier post - locals all get a kickback to offset the VAT, so the poor don't get hammered on their tax, as a % of income.  And, it would ensure that those people (whom you evidently don't like) would have to pay their share of taxes Where They Live - where they use the roads.  They would still not get the full-benefits of citizens, so would get far less-back in services than locals. 

 

At some point, however, when nations start competing for foreign-residents (and they will - as more work becomes digital), nations will begin competing for who offers the best services relative to tax-paid.

 

3 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

all your exports don't have the tax embedded in it - but it is not considered a subsidy.

Absofreakinglutely.  Levels the playing field.

[perthperson]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The deleterious effect on poor people can easily be offset by monthly credits for taxes paid for a given threshold.... i.e. if the tax is 17% then you credit the poor 17% and the deemed poverty level is 25,000 acorns -- you give them at the beginning of each month 365 acorns so that they can pay that tax without being out of pocket.

 

Socialist Pyramid Schemes as you suggest eventually collapse .........................................

[Bassosa]

So much hate for digital nomads in this topic.

 

Strange...

 

They're highly educated, entrepreneurial, follow their dreams, environmentally conscious and spend a shitload of money within Thai borders.

 

They're basically everything the 50+ farang demographic in Thailand isn't.

 

And the ones I know pay their taxes.

 

Thailand is going to miss them if they would be forced to leave. It would only leave Thai, tourists and cranky old men at Tops foodcourt.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Bassosa

[blorg]

1 minute ago, khunPer said:

Note, that taxation of foreign income only apply, if the income is taken (transferred) into Thailand the same year as it's earned; otherwise it's savings

This exact same rule would apply to digital nomads. I know MANY pensioners are NOT bringing savings in, they have their pension deposited directly in their Thai bank accounts and by the letter of the law this rule would not apply to them.

 

>Double taxation agreements – if you for example pay withdrawal tax in you home country of your retirement pension's monthly payouts, and your home country has a double taxation agreement with Thailand, then your retirement pension is not taxable in Thailand. 

 

(1) I believe in most cases a double taxation agreement would still require you to file and pay tax in the country you are actually RESIDENT. It gets you off paying double tax in your home country, but a double taxation agreement does NOT get you off paying tax in your country of residence, it just prevents DOUBLE taxation. (2) Many countries do NOT have double taxation agreements with Thailand, and their pensioners aren't paying tax here any more than those that do.