Palestinian worshippers hurt in clash with Israeli police in Jerusalem

[webfact]

Palestinian worshippers hurt in clash with Israeli police in Jerusalem

 

Israeli border police clash with Palestinian men during scuffles that erupted after Palestinians held evening prayers outside the Lion's Gate of Jerusalem's Old City July 18, 2017. REUTERS/Ammar Awad

 

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Several Palestinians were injured, at least one seriously, when they clashed with police near Jerusalem's Noble Sanctuary-Temple Mount compound after Muslim evening prayers on Tuesday, according to Palestinian medical officials.

 

A hospital official said one man had suffered a serious head wound from a rubber bullet fired from close range but an Israeli police spokesman denied that rubber bullets had been used. A senior Muslim cleric was also hurt, witnesses said.

 

Tensions have increased around the compound, which is holy to Muslims and Jews, since three Arab-Israeli gunmen shot dead two Israeli policemen outside the complex on Friday in one of the most serious attacks in the area in years.

 

The assailants were killed by security forces and Israeli authorities briefly closed the compound.

 

When it was reopened on Sunday, metal detectors had been installed, to the anger of Muslim religious authorities. Israeli officials said they were a permanent measure but many worshippers refused to go through them and preferred to pray outside the compound.

 

The Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance service said at least 14 people had been injured in Tuesday's violence. A video clip posted on social media from the scene showed people running away from a melee and loud popping sounds.

 

Israeli police spokeswoman Luba Samri said that, after prayers ended, some of the dozens of worshippers had started throwing rocks and bottles at police officers, and dispersal means were used. Two officers were lightly hurt, she said.

 

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said police who regularly patrol Jerusalem's Old City use stun grenades in clashes, but are not routinely armed with rubber bullets.

 

(Reporting by Ammar Awad; Writing by Ori Lewis; Editing by Kevin Liffey)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-07-19

[Elfin]

Typically the ones in the body armour, clubs and guns with rubber bullets attack the unarmed worshipers.  These ugly goons are pure scum and oxygen thieves, and they revel in their own gutlessness.

BDS

[yardrunner]

sounds like six of one and half a dozen of the other with the ones who had the body Armour and weapons going in to hard

[Morch]

56 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Typically the ones in the body armour, clubs and guns with rubber bullets attack the unarmed worshipers.

These ugly goons are pure scum and oxygen thieves, and they revel in their own gutlessness.

BDS

 

Typically, the usual suspects chime in with the expected responses.

 

There is no suggestion, even in the OP that the worshipers were attacked. Rather it is said that they clashed with security forces. Spin much?

 

There was this rather major attack last week at the very same place. Assailants apparently walked in and opened fire from within the compound grounds, before being taken down. One of the measures introduced in the aftermath of the attack was the placement of metal detectors just outside of the entry gates. There were no real changes as to entry arrangements.

 

Following the attack, several Palestinian religious leaders issued calls for believers and worshipers to confront with law enforcement forces. Even by the usual standards, this was uncalled for, as there was no violation of long standing arrangements relating to the site. Same call was taken up by such organizations as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and certain elements of the Fatah. Waqf leaders, for their own reasons (upcoming changes in the Waqf council, for example) chose to fan the flames by making the metal detector placement into a major issue. In the process rejecting even the idea that their people will monitor them.

 

Considering that such means are employed elsewhere (Mecca and the Vatican come to mind), and that the Waqf had less issues with previous security suggestions in the past (such as installing CCTV's on site), the objections, incitement and fanning of flames seem contrived. 

[dexterm]

Of course the heavily armed Israeli police thugs who caused the injuries are illegally occupying the site. Without the illegal occupation there would not be a need for any metal detectors, installed without the permission of the official guardians of the mosque WAQF. Consultation and consensus may have eased tensions.

 

Muslim clerics and Palestinian politicians fear this is just another attempt to impose Israeli sovereignty over Haram Al Sharif, the 3rd holiest site in Islam. And of course Israel has a track record of creeping annexation, so their fears are well grounded.

 

There is a report that the Israeli government is to allow Israeli MPs, who are not allowed to go to the site to stir up trouble, to visit the site on a trial basis. Some Israeli politicians have even proposed demolishing the mosque to build an Jewish Temple. Do they want to provoke a religious war?

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/when-i-have-the-opportunity-to-do-it-i-will-likud-lawmaker-vows-to-demolish-al-aqsa-mosque/

 

And there has been an increasing number of extremist Jews who violate the agreement not to hold prayers or conduct Jewish ceremonies in the mosque's grounds. They have the Wailing Wall...why do they want more?

How would Jewish worshippers react if Muslims rolled out their mats to pray at their Wailing Wall?

 

Israel should be de-escalating the tension. The custodians have offered a solution.

 

 Israel Just Got a Rare Offer to Defuse Temple Mount Tensions. It Will Most Likely Reject It
Jerusalem Islamic authority's offer to renew coordination could benefit all sides, but experts say Israel, which currently has the upper hand, is unlikely to take it.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.792369
 

Edited July 19, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Of course the heavily armed Israeli police thugs who caused the injuries are illegally occupying the site. Without the illegal occupation there would not be a need for any metal detectors, installed without the permission of the official guardians of the mosque WAQF. Consultation and consensus may have eased tensions.

 

Muslim clerics and Palestinian politicians fear this is just another attempt to impose Israeli sovereignty over Haram Al Sharif, the 3rd holiest site in Islam. And of course Israel has a track record of creeping annexation, so their fears are well grounded.

 

There is a report that the Israeli government is to allow Israeli MPs, who are not allowed to go to the site to stir up trouble, to visit the site on a trial basis. Some Israeli politicians have even proposed demolishing the mosque to build an Jewish Temple. Do they want to provoke a religious war?

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/when-i-have-the-opportunity-to-do-it-i-will-likud-lawmaker-vows-to-demolish-al-aqsa-mosque/

 

And there has been an increasing number of extremist Jews who violate the agreement not to hold prayers or conduct Jewish ceremonies in the mosque's grounds. They have the Wailing Wall...why do they want more?

How would Jewish worshippers react if Muslims rolled out their mats to pray at their Wailing Wall?

 

Israel should be de-escalating the tension. The custodians have offered a solution.

 

 Israel Just Got a Rare Offer to Defuse Temple Mount Tensions. It Will Most Likely Reject It
Jerusalem Islamic authority's offer to renew coordination could benefit all sides, but experts say Israel, which currently has the upper hand, is unlikely to take it.

 

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.792369
 

 

More of the same from the usual suspects.

 

The above ignores that relying on legal pretext, the Palestinians do not hold much of a claim to the site either. If the point is unclear, consult the only relevant reference, which would be the partition plan. One side's transgressions do not automatically imply the other side's righteousness, as you'd have readers believe.

 

Metal detectors are placed in other sites of religious importance in other parts of the world, where occupation is not an issue. No one makes a fuss about them, and they are considered a reasonable security measure.

 

As for cooperation and easing of tensions - may want to check the number of times compound grounds were used for violence, or the often issued calls by religious leaders at the site inciting worshipers for violence.

 

One of the very first things which happened following the recent attack (which conveniently, is totally ignored as context) was that Netanyahu and Abbas talked and assurances were given that no changes in the status quo are planned. That was, in part, an indirect response by Netanyahu for some of Israel's right wing elements who sought to use the attack as pretext for changes.

 

The conditional lifting of restrictions previously put in place (by Netanyahu) on Israeli politicians visiting the site took place before the attack in the compound, and before the current clashes. Presenting it as somehow directly tied to current events is the expected dishonesty. Further, treating Hazan's statements seriously is about as clueless at it gets when it comes to Israeli politics. For those not familiar - that the guy who insisted on taking a selfie with Trump as the latter landed in Israel.

 

The care displayed in the post above for religious sentiment is quite amusing, considering poster's often repeated self description as an ardent atheist. Somehow, this care is almost always applied to Muslims. Seems that Muslim's religious sentiment is to be taken as legitimate with regard to violence. Go figure.

 

The last bit is, once more, a disingenuous presentation. The headline of the story linked makes it sound as if it directly relates to the current situation, when in fact it was published on May. The article fails to make it clear that the Waqf does in fact administer the site, and that it either turns a blind eye or condones the grounds being used for uncoordinated construction activity, incitement and

violence.

 

As usual, not a word on the role of Muslim religious leaders, Islamic organizations and Palestinian elements with regard to tensions.

[dexterm]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

More of the same from the usual suspects.

 

The above ignores that relying on legal pretext, the Palestinians do not hold much of a claim to the site either. If the point is unclear, consult the only relevant reference, which would be the partition plan. One side's transgressions do not automatically imply the other side's righteousness, as you'd have readers believe.

 

Metal detectors are placed in other sites of religious importance in other parts of the world, where occupation is not an issue. No one makes a fuss about them, and they are considered a reasonable security measure.

 

As for cooperation and easing of tensions - may want to check the number of times compound grounds were used for violence, or the often issued calls by religious leaders at the site inciting worshipers for violence.

 

One of the very first things which happened following the recent attack (which conveniently, is totally ignored as context) was that Netanyahu and Abbas talked and assurances were given that no changes in the status quo are planned. That was, in part, an indirect response by Netanyahu for some of Israel's right wing elements who sought to use the attack as pretext for changes.

 

The conditional lifting of restrictions previously put in place (by Netanyahu) on Israeli politicians visiting the site took place before the attack in the compound, and before the current clashes. Presenting it as somehow directly tied to current events is the expected dishonesty. Further, treating Hazan's statements seriously is about as clueless at it gets when it comes to Israeli politics. For those not familiar - that the guy who insisted on taking a selfie with Trump as the latter landed in Israel.

 

The care displayed in the post above for religious sentiment is quite amusing, considering poster's often repeated self description as an ardent atheist. Somehow, this care is almost always applied to Muslims. Seems that Muslim's religious sentiment is to be taken as legitimate with regard to violence. Go figure.

 

The last bit is, once more, a disingenuous presentation. The headline of the story linked makes it sound as if it directly relates to the current situation, when in fact it was published on May. The article fails to make it clear that the Waqf does in fact administer the site, and that it either turns a blind eye or condones the grounds being used for uncoordinated construction activity, incitement and

violence.

 

As usual, not a word on the role of Muslim religious leaders, Islamic organizations and Palestinian elements with regard to tensions.

  What are Israeli police doing there in the first place, beating up worshippers? Their presence is illegal.

Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal.

 

"On 27–28 June 1967, East Jerusalem was integrated into Jerusalem by extension of its municipal borders and was placed under the law, jurisdiction and administration of the State of Israel.In a unanimous General Assembly resolution, the UN declared the measures trying to change the status of the city invalid.
In a reply to the resolution, Israel denied these measures constituted annexation, and contended that it merely wanted to deliver services to its inhabitants and protect the Holy Places"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#After_2000

..sneaky annexation by stealth. Israel now has 200,000 illegal colonists living there, pushing out Palestinians who are routinely refused building/repair permits.

 

>>Metal detectors are placed in other sites of religious importance in other parts of the world, where occupation is not an issue. No one makes a fuss about them, and they are considered a reasonable security measure.
..Off topic deflection. we arent talking about other religious sites. It would have created less tension if they had asked the custodians first. But as with most things in Israel's illegal occupation, things tend to become a fait accomplit.

 

>>As for cooperation and easing of tensions - may want to check the number of times compound grounds were used for violence, or the often issued calls by religious leaders at the site inciting worshipers for violence.
...I did. You may want to check the date the situation changed at Haram al Sharif. ...when Likud candidate Ariel Sharon, not particularly religious,  decided to take a stroll there along with 100s of bodyguards ..not that he was expecting any trouble of course.. thus deliberately provoking the 2nd intifada..a stunt that made him the PM and thrust the right wing into power. There has been little peace there since. And Israeli leaders have the chutzpah to accuse Palestinians of incitement.

 

Your personal flame/stalking regarding my atheism has nothing to do with the matter. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, dexterm said:

  What are Israeli police doing there in the first place, beating up worshippers? Their presence is illegal.

Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal.

 

"On 27–28 June 1967, East Jerusalem was integrated into Jerusalem by extension of its municipal borders and was placed under the law, jurisdiction and administration of the State of Israel.In a unanimous General Assembly resolution, the UN declared the measures trying to change the status of the city invalid.
In a reply to the resolution, Israel denied these measures constituted annexation, and contended that it merely wanted to deliver services to its inhabitants and protect the Holy Places"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#After_2000

..sneaky annexation by stealth. Israel now has 200,000 illegal colonists living there, pushing out Palestinians who are routinely refused building/repair permits.

 

>>Metal detectors are placed in other sites of religious importance in other parts of the world, where occupation is not an issue. No one makes a fuss about them, and they are considered a reasonable security measure.
..Off topic deflection. we arent talking about other religious sites. It would have created less tension if they had asked the custodians first. But as with most things in Israel's illegal occupation, things tend to become a fait accomplit.

 

>>As for cooperation and easing of tensions - may want to check the number of times compound grounds were used for violence, or the often issued calls by religious leaders at the site inciting worshipers for violence.
...I did. You may want to check the date the situation changed at Haram al Sharif. ...when Likud candidate Ariel Sharon, not particularly religious,  decided to take a stroll there along with 100s of bodyguards ..not that he was expecting any trouble of course.. thus deliberately provoking the 2nd intifada..a stunt that made him the PM and thrust the right wing into power. There has been little peace there since. And Israeli leaders have the chutzpah to accuse Palestinians of incitement.

 

Your personal flame/stalking regarding my atheism has nothing to do with the matter. 

 

Same old deflections.

 

Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area. Duh. Even if you wish to claim Israel's presence illegal, it does not make a valid argument for Palestinian ownership of same. It was not designated as a Palestinian territory as well. So if sticking to the legal angle (outdated as it is), pretty much all sides involved are in the wrong.

 

No, the deflection is presenting metal detectors as a religious affront rather than a relevant security measure. Muslims do not object to such measures on religious grounds elsewhere. If the Waqf would have been more diligent preventing usage of the compound as staging ground for incitement and violence, perhaps the need wouldn't arise.

 

Are you quite done bringing up irrelevant references? I was pointing out that that the compound grounds are often used as staging area for violence (for example, routine attacks on Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall, or indeed, the latest shooting attack), and that Muslim religious leaders often issue inciting messages from the compound or in relation to it. Your response? Sharon's actions back in 2000 (and no, your view of the relation between this and the 2nd Intifada is an opinion, not an agreed upon fact).

 

Some Israeli leaders may have engaged in incitement themselves. Never said otherwise. This by itself does not mean that Muslim and Palestinian leaders haven't done so. Such logic applies only in your black and white all or nothing world.

 

Pointing out the hypocritical nature of the claims raised vs. other position held is neither flaming nor stalking. And it bears directly on the  topic at hand, with similar instances can be discerned all across the board. Stop playing the victim card.

 

[dexterm]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Same old deflections.

 

Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area. Duh. Even if you wish to claim Israel's presence illegal, it does not make a valid argument for Palestinian ownership of same. It was not designated as a Palestinian territory as well. So if sticking to the legal angle (outdated as it is), pretty much all sides involved are in the wrong.

 

No, the deflection is presenting metal detectors as a religious affront rather than a relevant security measure. Muslims do not object to such measures on religious grounds elsewhere. If the Waqf would have been more diligent preventing usage of the compound as staging ground for incitement and violence, perhaps the need wouldn't arise.

 

Are you quite done bringing up irrelevant references? I was pointing out that that the compound grounds are often used as staging area for violence (for example, routine attacks on Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall, or indeed, the latest shooting attack), and that Muslim religious leaders often issue inciting messages from the compound or in relation to it. Your response? Sharon's actions back in 2000 (and no, your view of the relation between this and the 2nd Intifada is an opinion, not an agreed upon fact).

 

Some Israeli leaders may have engaged in incitement themselves. Never said otherwise. This by itself does not mean that Muslim and Palestinian leaders haven't done so. Such logic applies only in your black and white all or nothing world.

 

Pointing out the hypocritical nature of the claims raised vs. other position held is neither flaming nor stalking. And it bears directly on the  topic at hand, with similar instances can be discerned all across the board. Stop playing the victim card.

 

>>Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area. Duh.
..Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area ILLEGALLY, .... Duh. If they werent there there wouldnt be a problem.

>>presenting metal detectors as a religious affront rather than a relevant security measure.
...a relevant security measure only to protect Jewish extremists  whose intent is to desecrate the 3rd holiest site in Islam, by praying and performing Jewish rituals there. Imagine the furore if Muslims tried to do the same thing at the Wailing Wall.

 

>>Such logic applies only in your black and white all or nothing world.
..my logic is ..Israel who have all the guns and power and are the illegal occupiers not the occupied. Israel is writing the script.They could choose to make the situation different. The only power Palestinians have is to roll over and accept whatever fate Israel dishes out to them or resist.

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area. Duh.
..Israeli police forces are there, because Israel controls the area ILLEGALLY, .... Duh. If they werent there there wouldnt be a problem.

>>presenting metal detectors as a religious affront rather than a relevant security measure.
...a relevant security measure only to protect Jewish extremists  whose intent is to desecrate the 3rd holiest site in Islam, by praying and performing Jewish rituals there. Imagine the furore if Muslims tried to do the same thing at the Wailing Wall.

 

>>Such logic applies only in your black and white all or nothing world.
..my logic is ..Israel who have all the guns and power and are the illegal occupiers not the occupied. Israel is writing the script.They could choose to make the situation different. The only power Palestinians have is to roll over and accept whatever fate Israel dishes out to them or resist.

 

You're deflecting again.

 

I never said Israel's presence is legal. The point made was that if you wish to base your argument on legal grounds, then this applies for the Palestinian side as well. Not to mention Jordan. That you say there would have been no problem ignores denial of worship and access prior to the Israeli occupation. Granted, this was applied only to Jews, but that's a minor detail in your narrative.

 

The metal detectors are not a security measure relevant only (your bold) as described in your post. The shooting which took place last week wasn't carried out by Jews, and the policemen shot weren't Jews. The site's grounds are often used (do their elevation) to launch attacks against Jewish worshipers in the Western Wall. And if you wish to include Jewish (or Christian) extremists, by all means - there were some attempts at blowing up/burning the mosques in the past. This has nothing to do with your nonsense, though.

 

You have no logic. All your posts are a stream of extreme one-sided propaganda devoid of anything which resembles a reasoned or peaceful approach to the issues at hand. To say that Palestinian political and religious leaders did not contribute to the how things stand is either ignorance or an outright lie. Pick one.

 

 

[dexterm]

Looks like wiser heads may prevail.

Israeli Army, Shin Bet Urging Netanyahu to Relent on Temple Mount Metal Detectors
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.802263

 

When there's a conflagration, don't pour fuel on the fire.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

Looks like wiser heads may prevail.

Israeli Army, Shin Bet Urging Netanyahu to Relent on Temple Mount Metal Detectors
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.802263

 

When there's a conflagration, don't pour fuel on the fire.

 

Must be quite an effort to reconcile your standard black and white presentations of anything to do with Israel and the story you just linked.

 

Apart from the obvious lack of unified Israeli position on these matters, a few other points to consider:

 

Removing them will be more of pragmatic solution to the crisis, not an indication of their being unneeded. As a reminder, there were metal detectors at the gates up to 2000. Additionally, compromise options mention introducing a selective screening process, whereby only suspicious persons will be screened by hand held detectors. If so, I don't know that this is an improvement, quite a potential leading to further problems.

 

None of the above implies that there is no ongoing related incitement carried out by Palestinian leaders, political and religious alike. If one worries about playing with fire, this cuts both ways. It's a good question whether the crowds on the upcoming Friday prayers could be controlled, even if the metal detectors will be removed and leaders on both sides cease fanning the flames. Skeptical all of these conditions will be fulfilled, which could spell a troublesome weekend.

 

There are various positions and statements attributed to the Waqf. Some of them even appear contradictory. In part, this is due to the Waqf including two elements - administrative and religious. The former deals mainly with the day to day management of the cite and is (relative to its counterpart) a Jordanian thing. Generally speaking, that would be the element more open to cooperation, dialogue and compromise. The religious (or spiritual) element is generally made up of local Muslim religious leaders. These are more prone to hard-line positions, incitement, and mobilizing worshipers. Each element further represents, to one degree or another, various political (and sometimes, commercial) groups of interest. Whenever there's a crisis, or whenever there are seats to be refilled things tend to flare out some. Same as elections time on political systems.