Transfer switch gone amuck

[Crossy]

So with all the individual breakers off and correct polarity do you have any current flow?

 

No? Turn on one at a time until current flows.

Yes? Start disconnecting neutrals until the current stops.

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, Wirejerker said:

I assume you are using an ammeter.. Wattmeters read in watts. By your diagram meter A is on the active. And B is in the neutral.. so you r checking to different paths. To shut me up disconnect the active and neutral wires for the garden circuit. With both wires disconnected use a multimeter on Ω (ohms) test that circuit for a ground fault.


Cheers

Hey there Wirejerker - I appreciate you trying to help but FYI:  A watt meter measures volts and amps at the same time.  The one I have displays the RMS volts and amps measured.  It additionally displays current watts, or cumulative kwh or power factor.  A watt meter or ammeter will measure exactly the same whether on Live or Neutral (it doesn't matter).  Again, the garden lights are on the down CU where the meter NEVER shows above normal (or expected depending on the loads).

 

Just for fun... go through exactly how you would use a DMM to test a wire for a ground fault.  Like, step by step.  Cheers.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

A watt meter or ammeter will measure exactly the same whether on Live or Neutral (it doesn't matter).

 

Unless it's in the neutral and there's current going from live to ground via a fault. It actually matters a lot.

 

Steve. You need to think this through carefully. It was working fine up until recently, so something has changed.

 

Hook it up correctly with all the down breakers off.

 

Turn on the down main breaker - check for unexpected current. If none turn on the breakers one by one.

 

Report back here.

 

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

So with all the individual breakers off and correct polarity do you have any current flow?

 

No? Turn on one at a time until current flows.

Yes? Start disconnecting neutrals until the current stops.

 

 

Yah, with the down main breaker off or all individual breakers off the current flow on meter 'B' is zero and meter 'A' is normal upstairs usage.  With correct polarity in the down CU, turning on any breaker with a load will show that load on meter 'B' but meter 'A' goes to 18 amps.  Doing that test also generates exercise because 'A' is ALL the way upstairs.  :)

[Crossy]

So, with down main on and individual breakers off there is no current flow?

 

But turning on ANY individual down breaker causes several A?

 

Do you have a clamp meter or can you move the B wattmeter to measure in the live? Will save you the exercise.

 

Something isn't adding up here. How are you checking polarity?

 

EDIT and where are you reversing the down polarity?

[Wirejerker]

A watt meter or ammeter will measure exactly the same whether on Live or Neutral (it doesn't matter).

 

 

 

 

Cheers

You forget that you have an earth fault in the wire you are not measuring so the current splits into to paths

[bankruatsteve]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

So, with down main on and individual breakers off there is no current flow?  No current flow at 'B' just up current flow at 'A'.

 

But turning on ANY individual down breaker causes several A?  I think I turned on 3 breakers (kitchen and living room).  Normal at 'B', 18 A at 'A'.  This with 'correct' polarity.

 

Do you have a clamp meter or can you move the B wattmeter to measure in the live? Will save you the exercise.  Yes have and yes have done that when the fault not active (similar reading).  Can't remember if tried when the fault active.  I'll make that a todo tomorrow.

 

Something isn't adding up here. How are you checking polarity?  Well, you know the way I like to do it.    But, with a ground bar in easy proximity, I check voltage between the neutral bar and ground.

 

If I think about this too much more my brain is going to bust.  I'm too bummed out to turn off the AC today but will cross at the transfer switch tomorrow (as that is where easiest to do it) and which will put up CU reversed and down CU "correct" and will measure individual circuits with ammeter.

 

Thanks much.

[Crossy]

OK. Task 'A', check the polarity by measuring between live (or what you think is live) and a real ground (big screwdriver in the lawn).

 

You have a potential earth fault, so anything measured to the ground bar is going to be suspect.

 

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

OK. Task 'A', check the polarity by measuring between live (or what you think is live) and a real ground (big screwdriver in the lawn).

 

You have a potential earth fault, so anything measured to the ground bar is going to be suspect.

 

Well ok BUT if I get 200 and some volts between neutral and ground bar and 10 and some volts between what is supposed to be live and the ground bar I'm pretty darn sure I can say what the polarity is.  Cheers.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

Well ok BUT if I get 200 and some volts between neutral and ground bar and 10 and some volts between what is supposed to be live and the ground bar I'm pretty darn sure I can say what the polarity is.  Cheers.

 

OK have it your way.

 

But remember you have a live to ground fault somewhere which could be pulling your 'ground' up.

 

 

[Wirejerker]

Thanks for the lesson on meters but it is wasted on me.
To test for an earth fault I isolate the circuit by disconnecting the active wire from the CB and the neutral wire from the n/l then using a MEGER set to 500 volts and test from each wire to ground. Because you fault is in the order of 15 Ω you will be able to pick up the fault with a multimeter.


Cheers

[bankruatsteve]

9 minutes ago, Wirejerker said:

Thanks for the lesson on meters but it is wasted on me.
To test for an earth fault I isolate the circuit by disconnecting the active wire from the CB and the neutral wire from the n/l then using a MEGER set to 500 volts and test from each wire to ground. Because you fault is in the order of 15 Ω you will be able to pick up the fault with a multimeter.


Cheers

First off, I did forget about fault condition for the ammeter, so you get that one.    

 

It's been years since I've used a Megger but I recall the wire needs to be isolated meaning disconnect from the light as well and I just can't be bothered.  Same for using a DMM but where are you measuring between to 'find' a 15 ohm fault?

[bankruatsteve]

21 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

OK have it your way.

 

But remember you have a live to ground fault somewhere which could be pulling your 'ground' up.

 

 

One of my "faults" is that, in my some times impatient endeavor to get from A to B, I tend to make assumptions that come back to bite me.  Most likely what will turn out in this case.  I do understand what you are saying about "ground".  I'm just thinking that polarity determination doesn't need accuracy but rather a significant difference is what is measured.  For sure no disrespect was intended.  I hope you also know that.  Cheers.

[Wirejerker]

After you disconnect from the cb and n/l you Don't need to disconnect the lights from the circuit just test between your. Active and your ground wire then the neutral and the ground wire


Cheers

[bankruatsteve]

I exchanged wires in the down CU which put them back to proper polarity and noticing that I did indeed have the watt meter on the neutral.    Even though I said it "doesn't matter", I always check the live when using my ammeter and can't imagine why I would have done that.  

 

Anyway, main on all breakers off.  Go up and turn power back on.  Meter 'A' normal.  Go down and start turning breakers back on:  Kitchen 1, Kitchen 2 (RCBO), and then I see it.  The 3rd breaker is my water pump (not my living room) and I know where the problem is.  All other breakers on and everything normal.  Then I turn on the pump breaker and - slower this time - but rolls up to 16 amps on the meter.  Breaker off.  I know what the problem is because it's the same outlet that has given me grief 2 times before.  You would think I remember that before ordering a new transfer switch and ready to re-wire my house.  The G-damn geckos seem to think that outlet makes a perfect nest and sure enough when I open there are about a dozen eggs and a fried mom.  How that managed to carry 15 amps for several hours is another question but maybe later.  

 

So, the moral of this story for me is:  when things just don't make sense, it probably is from something simple that I overlook or assume something else.  And, I'm glad to have this forum to whack me on the head when I'm going nuts.  Thanks!

[bankruatsteve]

20 hours ago, Wirejerker said:

After you disconnect from the cb and n/l you Don't need to disconnect the lights from the circuit just test between your. Active and your ground wire then the neutral and the ground wire


Cheers

I'm still curious about this though.  I haven't tried this, but what ohm value would you be looking for if the fault was say 15 ohm?  And what would you expect the value for a non-compromised cable to be?  Also, what is "your ground wire"?  Are you referring to the CU ground bar or something else?

[Crossy]

Lesson learned, always investigate fully any change to a working system.

 

Anyway, bung a couple of moth balls (naphthalene balls) in that troublesome outlet, they last ages in a sealed environment and the geckos will not return.

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Lesson learned, always investigate fully any change to a working system.

 

Anyway, bung a couple of moth balls (naphthalene balls) in that troublesome outlet, they last ages in a sealed environment and the geckos will not return.

 

 

Can't remember where I first saw the moth ball idea (maybe you) but it's been over a year that I bought a kilo of them putting in THAT outlet as well as scattering around various places upstairs (like the electric closet).  At first it seemed to help but after a while I think they must be using the balls for play.  And the ones I bought turn into vapor after a few months.  Maybe different kinds?

[carlyai]

All good.[emoji1]
As you know (maybe?) the old saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'
So you could probably leave that horrible looking transfer switch there, as it's working, but better to paint it purple, luminous orange and green to make it a Thai Transfer Switch. Well done. [emoji26]


Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

Can't remember where I first saw the moth ball idea (maybe you)

 

Yeah, it could well have been me. You do have to replace them but once you know where the critters like to go you can limit the task to these few places.

 

Wifey keeps them in out display cabinets, no gecko s**t, they probably last a couple of months.

[Wirejerker]

Haven't gone very far have we. Sitting in your easy chair with a laptop(me too) . Put your finger on the Ethernet port and see if the geckos are back.
Seriously you dodged two bullets and we need to put some protection in place. I would fit a MEN link and I know you don't like that but u probably forgotten why you don't like it. Your installation is far bigger than the normal Thai house so you have to think big protection. MEN will give you more protection on the front end too.
Touch that Ethernet port again. Still ok
Fit RCBOs on your final circuits particularly that one that has a track record of geckos.
You dodged two bullets it time to disarm the gun. The bullet may hit someone you love more than yourself
Touch that port again


Cheers

[bankruatsteve]

10 minutes ago, Wirejerker said:

Haven't gone very far have we. Sitting in your easy chair with a laptop(me too) . Put your finger on the Ethernet port and see if the geckos are back.
Seriously you dodged two bullets and we need to put some protection in place. I would fit a MEN link and I know you don't like that but u probably forgotten why you don't like it. Your installation is far bigger than the normal Thai house so you have to think big protection. MEN will give you more protection on the front end too.
Touch that Ethernet port again. Still ok
Fit RCBOs on your final circuits particularly that one that has a track record of geckos.
You dodged two bullets it time to disarm the gun. The bullet may hit someone you love more than yourself
Touch that port again


Cheers

Being from the states, N bonded to E is necessary for the electric to work.  It's not called MEN there and not a matter of liking or not.  There is no good reason for me to install MEN in my house because it is not implemented here.  I have RCBO where I feel I need them and the pump is not one of those.

Your metaphors suck but cheers anyway.

[Crossy]

I think we can close this one as our OP has found the problem.

 

I see it degenerating fast from this point.