Red shirts reconciled to grim future

[Pridilives]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Thaksin wants everything: the police force, the judiciary, the army, the State.

Says who - you?

what does the junta have now?

can thaksin have anything without first being elect?

can thaksin stay government if lose election?

what wrong with you thinking?

 

[candide]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Only quiet because they have been progressively boxed in.

Actually, the most efficient way to keep red shirts quiet is to hold elections. I wonder why some people cannot get it? Oooops!

[sujoop]

5 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Deceive yourself however you want. Thaksin wants to win at election not in street. Nobody need die if election. So election is good thing

 

Succintly corrected by SheungWan:

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Thaksin wants everything for his family business: the police force, the judiciary, the army, the State.

But okay then, let's just go back to 'democracy' as we had with consecutive Thaksin-backed Govt's. A 'democracy' which all but ends abruptly following a successful 'by hook or crook'  vote (which is apparently the SOLE threshold of achieving 'democracy' to some).
 

Let's go back to passing amnesty's in the middle of the night to help the real 'dear leader' Thaksin, or illegaly passing historic borrowing bills also in the middle of the night (and brazenly adding a 'no-oversight' / no-inspection or monitoring on spending clause...) this is how arrogant and fear-LESS they were, blatantly subverting checks and balances.
 

Or attempting to change the law to prevent citizens from lodging court complaints against the Govt without approval from the Govt's own appointed Attorney General first. Or attempts to change the Senate to allow family members of MP's to also be Senators (all in the family, zero checks or balances, just blank cheques to approve any bill you wish). Let's just go straight back to the '97 constitution much preferred and beloved by red-shirt leaders and their boss as he easily subverted or neutered checks and balances, Govt watch-dog agencies, and loaded others with cronies, including appointing family members to head both the police and military...
 

Yes let's go back to Thaksin's 'democracy' some seem to miss so dearly, let's return to Deputy Prime Minister 'Who's your daddy' Chalerm, and other supposedly non-elite 'fresh thinkers' like Chavalit, Plodprasop et al... Let's return to nightly bombs and murdering of children to more red-shirt applause...
 

Let's go straight back to adding to the dead and maimed count since 2006, all sacrificed for the desires of one self-enriching, criminal, megalomoniacal autocrat. 'But we came from election'... as Yingluck and other low-threshold defenders doth protest (which is sadly the SOLE and TOTAL qualification of 'democracy' some would have us 'aspire' to...)
 

As one who would also love to see Thailand evolve to 'real' democracy, one must first be honest, there never really was any true democracy in spirit, intent, nor follow-on action by Thaksin's Govt's. Rather a systematic watchdog dismantling, self-enriching, autocratic dynasty, similar to a Hun Sen,  Marcos, Suharto, (also add Chavez/Putin etc to the list)  which many on here are naively or recklessly pining away to return to.
 

Or, *try* get as many reforms as/or IF possible done to prevent subversion of checks and balances (including an unfortunately proven to be needed military 'baby-sat' Senate majority for 5 years) and then try, try again.

[YetAnother]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

 

"However, for better or worse, they have brought the issues of poverty and lack of opportunities for political participation to the fore. And given the disparities of wealth and power in Thailand, that is a good thing."

 

I rather doubt this is a realistic summation. The red shirts did basically nothing about poverty. When did the red shirts as a 'group' ever make / discuss / announce a manifesto specifically about poverty with specific big picture policies and mooted specific actions and investment aimed specifically at getting large numbers of Thai people, quickly, into a much better quality of life? Never.  What did they do to reform education, sorely needed to give the poor more opportunity to generate business or gain better employment? Nothing whatever. The reality is that they have never made any red shirt polices about the development of Thailand. They can't they just do the bidding as ordered by their owner / financier.

 

On the other hand they had no hesitation to do the bidding of their ultra rich absconded boss (they wouldn't dare not to), mainly aimed at getting the paymasters' gang into power to initiate a whitewash and regain the premiership and therefore access to the trough for the members of the 'yes men' salaried gang? What's this got to do with alleviating poverty?  

 

I do agree there is a large and unacceptable disparity between the rich and the poor. Lets remember that the paymaster was handed a telecoms monopoly on a platter (no call for bids etc., to get a license, and at a time when it was solid policy that all telecoms should be owned and managed by the state) he charged exhorbatent service / calls rates and became very very rich. Did he share this wealth with the poor? Close to zero. 

 

" Until Thailand manages to allow those voices, concentrated in the north and north east, to have a legitimate opportunity to participate, the troubles will continue."

 

Yes this does need more attention and in many ways. 

 

Was it the state that kept them silent (if that's in fact true)? There is certainly truth that state mechanisms had way too much control over these people and there is still a lot of work to be done to gain a scenario where public servants at large (including the RTP) are forced back into the position of being the servants of the people / the folks paid to do the will of the people. In reality the RTP for many years were the servants of the paymaster. Did the red shirts address this in any way/ Totally no.

 

Did the red shirts ever specifically ever promote (even discuss) the generation of the scenario where public servants at large (including the RTP) are forced back into the position of being the servants of the people / the folks paid to do the will of the people. In reality the RTP for many years were the servants of the paymaster. No they didn't.

 

In fact the red shirts contributed to keeping the good folks of the North and even more strongly the North East under control e.g. 'the red democracy schools' which were a total sham, just hate spruking venues. 

 

 

"People can be put in jail, but the ideas that led to the Red Shirts remain, and ideas tend to stick around."

 

I repeat my comments above... Plus I have concerns that if their is violence it will be generated by the red shirts for their own selfish ends, in reality the selfish ends of their criminal highly corrupt immoral paymaster not on behalf of anybody else. 

 

 

lengthy but one of the better posts i have read; might have summarized it by saying;'reds had the chance to prove their stated aims but they did nothing positive'

[ChidlomDweller]

10 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Succintly corrected by SheungWan:

But okay then, let's just go back to 'democracy' as we had with consecutive Thaksin-backed Govt's. A 'democracy' which all but ends abruptly following a successful 'by hook or crook'  vote (which is apparently the SOLE threshold of achieving 'democracy' to some).
 

Let's go back to passing amnesty's in the middle of the night to help the real 'dear leader' Thaksin, or illegaly passing historic borrowing bills also in the middle of the night (and brazenly adding a 'no-oversight' / no-inspection or monitoring on spending clause...) this is how arrogant and fear-LESS they were, blatantly subverting checks and balances.
 

Or attempting to change the law to prevent citizens from lodging court complaints against the Govt without approval from the Govt's own appointed Attorney General first. Or attempts to change the Senate to allow family members of MP's to also be Senators (all in the family, zero checks or balances, just blank cheques to approve any bill you wish). Let's just go straight back to the '97 constitution much preferred and beloved by red-shirt leaders and their boss as he easily subverted or neutered checks and balances, Govt watch-dog agencies, and loaded others with cronies, including appointing family members to head both the police and military...
 

Yes let's go back to Thaksin's 'democracy' some seem to miss so dearly, let's return to Deputy Prime Minister 'Who's your daddy' Chalerm, and other supposedly non-elite 'fresh thinkers' like Chavalit, Plodprasop et al... Let's return to nightly bombs and murdering of children to more red-shirt applause...
 

Let's go straight back to adding to the dead and maimed count since 2006, all sacrificed for the desires of one self-enriching, criminal, megalomoniacal autocrat. 'But we came from election'... as Yingluck and other low-threshold defenders doth protest (which is sadly the SOLE and TOTAL qualification of 'democracy' some would have us 'aspire' to...)
 

As one who would also love to see Thailand evolve to 'real' democracy, one must first be honest, there never really was any true democracy in spirit, intent, nor follow-on action by Thaksin's Govt's. Rather a systematic watchdog dismantling, self-enriching, autocratic dynasty, similar to a Hun Sen,  Marcos, Suharto, (also add Chavez/Putin etc to the list)  which many on here are naively or recklessly pining away to return to.
 

Or, *try* get as many reforms as/or IF possible done to prevent subversion of checks and balances (including an unfortunately proven to be needed military 'baby-sat' Senate majority for 5 years) and then try, try again.

And how are those reforms working out for you?   Will you admit to being disappointed?  Surely you are aware that the rationales for all the previous coups have been essentially the same?  Surely you must suspect that just as Thaksin's motives aren't that noble, the same can be said of the cabal that instigated the latest coup?  No offence, but was anyone really ever that naive to believe Suthep and the cabal backing him did it out of love for the country?  Give me a break.  That was never about corruption but who gets to eat at the trough.  Not just high-level corruption but also a vast civil service that is unwilling to be reformed.

 

The only way forward is let democracy grow up, and meanwhile, the elites can use their power to limit the worst excesses of politicians, as was already happening with many of the examples you gave.  

[Ron19]

A flame post has been removed.

[Bluespunk]

26 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Intolerant, violent, bullying like manner - exactly be junta. Yes or no?

Already answered this question. 

 

However as you seem incapable of reading anything that doesn't fit your agenda, let me reiterate. 

 

I have no no sympathy nor do I support the current govts use of violence. 

 

Now, let's here you condemn the actions of the intolerant, violent, street thug stormtroopers known as the UDD. 

[Pridilives]

11 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

lengthy but one of the better posts i have read; might have summarized it by saying;'reds had the chance to prove their stated aims but they did nothing positive'

Reds did plenty positive. In fact they did more to change the system than any Thai government ever. That's why have coups. To stop change. Only one period of red government have opportunity to function not too much intereference that is government 2001-2005. Results speak for them self. When 2005 election 60% Thai choose re-elect. Againresult speak for self

[Pridilives]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Already answered this question. 

 

However as you seem incapable of reading anything that doesn't fit your agenda, let me reiterate. 

 

I have no no sympathy nor do I support the current govts use of violence. 

 

Now, let's here you condemn the actions of the intolerant, violent, street thug stormtroopers known as the UDD. 

Of course both side have thug. 

But one big difference.

Which side gonna give Thailand democracy and which side wanna keep things same. 

Can you answer that

[robblok]

54 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Who are the red shirts here?  The vast majority of foreigners I know are anti-junta, anti-yellow, anti-elites.  It's not a particularly hard concept to grasp that if you find the yellow side more despicable, it doesn't make you a supporter of the reds.

You know other foreigners than me. I find the reds more despicable. The reds seek out the yellows and kill them 4 in Trad, they bomb yellows and so on. Just remember the protests.. then we had Charlem telling the yellows go home i cant protect you (of course your not going to protect them against attacks from your armed wing). I have yet to see evidence of the yellows going after the reds at their meetings and attack them. Of course they have defended themselves from attacks but, nothing like going on the offensive like the reds do.  For me its quite clear who are worse (not that the yellows are angels)

[Pridilives]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

You know other foreigners than me. I find the reds more despicable. The reds seek out the yellows and kill them 4 in Trad, they bomb yellows and so on. Just remember the protests.. then we had Charlem telling the yellows go home i cant protect you (of course your not going to protect them against attacks from your armed wing). I have yet to see evidence of the yellows going after the reds at their meetings and attack them. Of course they have defended themselves from attacks but, nothing like going on the offensive like the reds do.  For me its quite clear who are worse (not that the yellows are angels)

Can you list the three worst fatal events caused by the yellows (excluding 2010 crackdown that killed 90)?

i am curious as to whether you have taken objective approach to events, reviewed all fact and arrive decision or if just make decision first then look for something confirm and ignore everything deny. 

If your approach balance then you can list yellow crime same you list red crime. Or do you believe yellow not kill anyone?

[Bluespunk]

 

41 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

Of course both side have thug. 

But one big difference.

Which side gonna give Thailand democracy and which side wanna keep things same. 

Can you answer that

Nothing about the UDD was or is democratic. 

 

[Pridilives]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

Nothing about the UDD was or is democratic. 

 

So you can't answer which side gonna bring democracy to Thailand. 

Just type more falsity about Udd (and again ignore yello/army side which is clearly the non democratic side)

 

how about question- is udd more democratic pdrc and junta?

 

 

 

[sweatalot]

4 hours ago, Pridilives said:

The UDD issued six objectives of its movement: to achieve democracy and sovereignty belonging to the people ....

What is the worth of a paper if nobody sticks to it?

 

Just part of the disguise they are wearing for the international public

Their goals are well known - they are not political 

[Pridilives]

Just now, sweatalot said:

What is the worth of a paper if nobody sticks to it?

 

Just part of the disguise they are wearing for the international public

Their goals are well known - they are not political 

Well known by who - you?

why you deny the obvious is crazy to me. 

Why you cannot make argument with deny obvious.

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

So you can't answer which side gonna bring democracy to Thailand. 

Just type more falsity about Udd (and again ignore yello/army side which is clearly the non democratic side)

 

how about question- is udd more democratic pdrc and junta?

 

 

 

Pt and other thsksin vehicles will not bring democracy to Thailand. Neither will suthep and his lackeys. Neither will the military. 

 

Nothing I have said about the UDD is false. They are street thug fascists. 

 

Niether they, suthep or the military have an ounce of democracy in them. 

 

They are all the same side of the same coin. 

[Pridilives]

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Pt and other thsksin vehicles will not bring democracy to Thailand. Neither will suthep and his lackeys. Neither will the military. 

This is patently absurdity. You think red don't want democracy based on what. Just prejudice. Why UDD want to bring back 1997 constitution. You better off arguing there is no sun in the sky. 

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

Nothing I have said about the UDD is false. They are street thug fascists. 

Even the old ladies in the photo?

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

Niether they, suthep or the military have an ounce of democracy in them. 

Wow finally say something fact.

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

They are all the same side of the same coin. 

Wrong again. Not even superficially right

[ChidlomDweller]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You know other foreigners than me. I find the reds more despicable. The reds seek out the yellows and kill them 4 in Trad, they bomb yellows and so on. Just remember the protests.. then we had Charlem telling the yellows go home i cant protect you (of course your not going to protect them against attacks from your armed wing). I have yet to see evidence of the yellows going after the reds at their meetings and attack them. Of course they have defended themselves from attacks but, nothing like going on the offensive like the reds do.  For me its quite clear who are worse (not that the yellows are angels)

Perhaps, not entirely sure.  There was thuggery on the yellow side too, for instance attacking voters on election day, the popcorn shooter and jokes being made by the PDRC following that, the two policemen who were captured by the thug-monk, the same thug monk invading a building and demanding ransom from the business based there, and so on.  

 

Even taking your argument for a second, it's not symmetric.  The redshirts saw again and again the democratic result being stolen from under their noses, while the yellowshirts were in the process of stealing democracy.  Whose anger is easier to empathize with, the victim of theft or the thief?  What do the yellows have to be angry about, they always get everything via judicial and military coups.   The yellows had the judiciary on their hand, issuing absurd rulings preventing the police from intervening.  That was key in the redshirt violence IMO.  If the police had been allowed to do their jobs, there would have been fewer redshirt hotheads turning to violence.  The yellows were agitating for a coup and eventually got the army to do it for them.  Why bother with street thuggery if you already have the military, judiciary and bureaucracy on your side?  

 

And one last important point that has been raised earlier in this thread, the role model, the great innovator, was the yellowshirts and their lawlessness in 2006.  Letting them get away with it set the template.  

[Bluespunk]

20 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

This is patently absurdity. You think red don't want democracy based on what. Just prejudice. Why UDD want to bring back 1997 constitution. You better off arguing there is no sun in the sky. 

Even the old ladies in the photo?

Wow finally say something fact.

Wrong again. Not even superficially right

'They' in the quote you like is the UDD. 

 

The udd are violent thugs.

 

They and their masters have no respect for democracy.

 

They want power, not democracy. 

 

They are no different to the pdrc or the current govt.

 

They have no tolerance for any view or opinion but their own. 

[Pridilives]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The udd are violent thugs.

 

Quote

 

They and their masters have no respect for democracy.

 

They want power, not democracy. 

 

They are no different to the pdrc or the current govt.

 

They have no tolerance for any view or opinion but their own. 

Very scary power hungry intolerant thugs indeed

[ChidlomDweller]

33 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Pt and other thsksin vehicles will not bring democracy to Thailand. Neither will suthep and his lackeys. Neither will the military. 

 

Nothing I have said about the UDD is false. They are street thug fascists. 

 

Niether they, suthep or the military have an ounce of democracy in them. 

 

They are all the same side of the same coin. 

I don't disagree.  Now we know what you're against, what are you for?

[robblok]

11 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Perhaps, not entirely sure.  There was thuggery on the yellow side too, for instance attacking voters on election day, the popcorn shooter and jokes being made by the PDRC following that, the two policemen who were captured by the thug-monk, the same thug monk invading a building and demanding ransom from the business based there, and so on.  

 

Even taking your argument for a second, it's not symmetric.  The redshirts saw again and again the democratic result being stolen from under their noses, while the yellowshirts were in the process of stealing democracy.  Whose anger is easier to empathize with, the victim of theft or the thief?  What do the yellows have to be angry about, they always get everything via judicial and military coups.   The yellows had the judiciary on their hand, issuing absurd rulings preventing the police from intervening.  That was key in the redshirt violence IMO.  If the police had been allowed to do their jobs, there would have been fewer redshirt hotheads turning to violence.  The yellows were agitating for a coup and eventually got the army to do it for them.  Why bother with street thuggery if you already have the military, judiciary and bureaucracy on your side?  

Tell me about deaths caused by yellows, in a similar fashion to the Reds. Going out to others and bombing or killing them. The popcorn man however bad (and I was happy when he was put in jail and sad when they tried to get him out) was a reaction to reds trying to attack them. This is a different situation from actively going to a demonstration and killing people there, like  they did in Trad and cheer about it later like you see in the video. I lived near the area where the popcorn man killed an innocent, the yellows there were bombed and shot at day after day by the reds. The popcorn man was brought in as a result. Invading is not killing or bombing both sides did that. Its clear that the reds went out of their way to kill and attack people and kids became a victim of their murderous actions. 

 

In my eyes its quite clear who are the more violent of the two groups, look at how they wanted to burn BKK down and actions like that. How the blackshirts (now proven in court) were actually also red shirts. Its a highly violent group in no way compatible with the yellows. 

 

The yellows had plenty to be angry about, but they never were as violent as the reds. 

 

Your argument is.. the reds got their election stolen and could not win in court so they turned violent that makes it all ok... Great. 

 

First off the reds went on the street after the democrats aligned with Newin and formed a new goverment.. that is democratic.. but then they went to the streets too against a lawful goverment... I guess its not bad when the redshirts to it.  

 

Maybe they should choose their leaders better, had the amnesty not included Thaksin then all would be good and the PTP would still be in power but because of YL who preferred family over a stable goverment the whole house of card came down

. 

 

 

[Eric Loh]

41 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 

They are all the same side of the same coin. 

Pathetically wrong by a country mile. 

 

UDD want democracy and election.

PDRC want a coup. 

Military want to maintain the Sakdina dominance. 

 

 

[InMyShadow]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

How do you feel about violent military thugs with absolutely no respect for any point of view but their own?  The kind that also have no respect for constitutions and hold themselves above the law?

violent military? who did they kill?

[Pridilives]

3 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

violent military? who did they kill?

This link for 2010

https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/05/03/descent-chaos/thailands-2010-red-shirt-protests-and-government-crackdown

 

want more link for 1992 or 1976?

[InMyShadow]

1 minute ago, Pridilives said:

This link for 2010

https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/05/03/descent-chaos/thailands-2010-red-shirt-protests-and-government-crackdown

 

want more link for 1992 or 1976?

pffft thats nothing compared to other military coups on the world stage.

 

a job well done and zero violence in the years later.

 

softest coup in history!!!

[Bluespunk]

24 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

 

Very scary power hungry intolerant thugs indeed

Already answered your post using this picture first time. 

 

Go back and review it if you've forgotten. 

[Bluespunk]

25 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

I don't disagree.  Now we know what you're against, what are you for?

The rule of law, justice and tolerance. 

[Bluespunk]

26 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Pathetically wrong by a country mile. 

 

UDD want democracy and election.

PDRC want a coup. 

Military want to maintain the Sakdina dominance. 

 

 

None want democracy. 

 

All want power. 

 

Please don't partially quote me. 

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.