Red shirts reconciled to grim future

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, Pridilives said:

How so. Seems to me you have a problem where you think if you write something it is true. How is it I am hysterical one when it is you crying about abuse?

Using the terms 'backward', 'crazy' and 'thug' to describe me are so...

[Pridilives]

1 minute ago, InMyShadow said:

Try to think back to when you participated in your home countries election. Wen your party lost did you and tens of thousands march into the capitol city paralyzing it and then shut down the airport followed by the bobbing and destruction of a major shopping mall and many innocents killed.

...yep didn't think so .

for thais democracy works great right up until there side loses and then its just another loss of face that must be rectified at any cost.

 

The junta took over "softly" eg tanks didn't run over a hundred protesters.

 

Hope they stay in power at least 10 years. The Thais got the government they deserved :-))

Only one side looses elections and then takes to the street. So more than half Thais don't have government they deserve and signifcant less than half Thais have government they want. No Thai has government they deserve

[CharlieH]

Dont get personal in your remarks please.

 

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.
 

[ChidlomDweller]

12 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Dont get personal in your remarks please.

 

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.
 

Agreed, that's not going to convince anyone.  Sometimes it's good to remember we want the same thing (I hope), but disagree about how to get there.  

[Pridilives]

13 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Agreed, that's not going to convince anyone.  Sometimes it's good to remember we want the same thing (I hope), but disagree about how to get there.  

We don't all want the same thing and that is ok. The idea is to debate, discuss things so that we can learn new thing and maybe teach new thing. But it has to be 2 way street and facts need to be respected. Respect fact if they support you and respect fact if they not support you. If not discuss for learn then just waste time. If someone say something and have fact can believe. Accept. And change way for think. If someone just talk nonsense and cannot support with fact then just loose time.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Pridilives

[Eric Loh]

34 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Try to think back to when you participated in your home countries election. Wen your party lost did you and tens of thousands march into the capitol city paralyzing it and then shut down the airport followed by the bombing and destruction of a major shopping mall and many innocents killed.

...yep didn't think so .

for thais democracy works great right up until there side loses and then its just another loss of face that must be rectified at any cost.

 

The junta took over "softly" eg tanks didn't run over a hundred protesters.

 

Hope they stay in power at least 10 years. The Thais got the government they deserved :-))

That's unigue Thai. The staging of the coup cost hundred of lives and when the coup finally arrive, there really no stamina for resistance or simple no one want to run into the bullets. Not even the UDD and some say they are violent. Still a coup abolished people right to select their own leader; even a soft coup and that it against universal suffrage. The junta has written themselves into power for next 20 years. Thais don't have a choice. 

[InMyShadow]

That's unigue Thai. The staging of the coup cost hundred of lives and when the coup finally arrive, there really no stamina for resistance or simple no one want to run into the bullets. Not even the UDD and some say they are violent. Still a coup abolished people right to select their own leader; even a soft coup and that it against universal suffrage. The junta has written themselves into power for next 20 years. Thais don't have a choice. 

They had a choice. Accept a democratic election. Thais are 50 years away from accepting democracy. The expats trying to impose their western version of democracy are actually even more clues less than the Thais!!

[than]

18 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Not even the UDD and some say they are violent.

Armed element from red shirts side. April 2010

[robblok]

2 hours ago, ChidlomDweller said:

First paragraph, not OK, but in spite of it I consider them by far the best of a very bad lot.  Decades-long feudal exploitative rule may not qualify as violence, but for me it's worse.  I suppose we also have to ignore the officially sanctioned violence from the military in 1974, 1992 and 2010.  One is doing bad in a fit of anger, the other is cold-blooded and deliberate.  

 

As for Newin, that whole context was a judicial coup, and then Abhisit, rather than being a reconciliator became a servant to his puppet masters.  Regular Thais just have to accept their station I guess.  

 

I agree with your last paragraph, they had a chance and blew it.  Thaksin could have been a great reformer, but couldn't control himself.  IMO, it was a rare chance to wait it out another 3-5 years and provide an opening for a new player.  It's far-fetched, but look at Trump and Macron, who saw those guys coming?

 

Like I've stated several times, my preferred alternative is not the false choice between red and yellow but to let democracy play out, and in the meanwhile use the system to temper the worst excesses of politicians.  It could be done if the elites actually cared for the country, as they say they do.  The problem is they only care for the country inasmuch it's there for their own exploitation.  What I've seen from the past 3+ years only confirms what was obvious since late 2013.  Someone mentioned the sakdina system.  That's exactly it.

I consider the yellows the best of the bad lot.. guess we differ there.

 

As for Newin, that is NOT a judicial coup but a shifting in alliances and something that can be done. I seen it happen in my country that governments fall and new ones get formed. Nothing illegal about it.

 

I prefer a normal democratic government but whoever is in charge will go for total control. We seen Thaksin do it countless times.. removing those he did not like removing checks and balances. If they were not like this things would be a lot better but they all want total control and no transparency at all.

[robblok]

55 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

That's unigue Thai. The staging of the coup cost hundred of lives and when the coup finally arrive, there really no stamina for resistance or simple no one want to run into the bullets. Not even the UDD and some say they are violent. Still a coup abolished people right to select their own leader; even a soft coup and that it against universal suffrage. The junta has written themselves into power for next 20 years. Thais don't have a choice. 

Yes they are violent.. but only against unarmed people. The moment the army comes to play they cower away. They like to bomb protests of the yellow.. look at trad.. killed a few kids in the process. But the moment they can be violent against the army to protect the democracy they run like rabbits. 

 

 

[candide]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes they are violent.. but only against unarmed people. The moment the army comes to play they cower away. They like to bomb protests of the yellow.. look at trad.. killed a few kids in the process. But the moment they can be violent against the army to protect the democracy they run like rabbits. 

 

 

If one assumes (as you do) in the case you repeat in nearly every post you make, that it was done on orders from the leaders of the UDD.

 

And last time they did oppose the army, 90+ were killed. So it is a good reason for being a coward!

[robblok]

Just now, candide said:

If one assumes (as you do) in the case you repeat in nearly every post you make, that it was done on orders from the leaders of the UDD.

 

And last time they did oppose the army, 90+ were killed. So it is a good reason for being a coward!

Yea sure.. they come on stage.. proudly announce it.. people cheering..  no they knew nothing.. came as a total surprise.. no involvement what so ever.... i guess you believe in father Christmas too.

 

Good reason to keep to the law.. but not those guys.. they just kill unarmed people.. fine bunch just like the red sympathizer that bombed a hospital. 

 

The yellows never ever were this violent or went out of their way to make victims.. I can't remember any bombings of yellow on red.. (do point them out with news articles)

 

The reds came out to bomb protesters.. look up peaceful protests in Trad bomb and shoot them... 

 

Those leaders of the UDD.. you mean those innocent people that asked people to bring gasoline to burn BKK... those guys.. nah they are not violent at all. 

 

[bangrak]

8 hours ago, Pridilives said:

False about thaksin use position to increase personal wealth. Just propaganda.

 

http://www.newmandala.org/a-response-to-vanina-sucharitkul/

 

How did Thaksin’s telecommunications businesses actually fare during his tenure, given all the ‘countless measures’ that he allegedly used to benefit them?” The numbers speak for themselves here. As you noted, the Supreme Court chose to confiscate around US$ 1.4 billion of his fortune (the difference between the shares’ values on the day he took office and the values when they were sold to Temasek). However, the Courts failed to take into account that Shin shares gained 121% over the period, which was actually less than the benchmark Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET) index gain of 128%.

Whether you have been totally brainwashed, or you would be a highly despicable hypocritical propagandist. Oh, by the way, how much did the last PTP 'government', 'leo-leo', in a rush,  give him back, before closing the books, can you please remind us of the figure? 

[bangrak]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

If one assumes (as you do) in the case you repeat in nearly every post you make, that it was done on orders from the leaders of the UDD.

 

And last time they did oppose the army, 90+ were killed. So it is a good reason for being a coward!

How many were killed and by whom? You do have a clear count? Well, please, do give it to us! 90+ red-shirts got killed? Is it so? Not even making a difference between the unarmed, peacefull old ladies, and the armed red-shirt guards, 90+, are you sure? Come on! Even being 'candide' (in Fr.) doesn't imply you would be stupid and a liar!  

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, InMyShadow said:

They had a choice. Accept a democratic election. Thais are 50 years away from accepting democracy. The expats trying to impose their western version of democracy are actually even more clues less than the Thais!!

So what is your version of democracy. Does that include 18 coups in last 90 odd years. 

[candide]

7 minutes ago, bangrak said:

How many were killed and by whom? You do have a clear count? Well, please, do give it to us! 90+ red-shirts got killed? Is it so? Not even making a difference between the unarmed, peacefull old ladies, and the armed red-shirt guards, 90+, are you sure? Come on! Even being 'candide' (in Fr.) doesn't imply you would be stupid and a liar!  

What are you ranting about? Did I say I only counted the armed guards? The protesters were commonly referred to as red shirts, wether they were peacefull old ladies or not. As to being stupid and a liar, it is frequent that some people tend to attribute their own flaws to others.

[bangrak]

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes they are violent.. but only against unarmed people. The moment the army comes to play they cower away. They like to bomb protests of the yellow.. look at trad.. killed a few kids in the process. But the moment they can be violent against the army to protect the democracy they run like rabbits. 

 

 

How can you exchange with someone who just wrote: 'The staging of the coup cost hundred of lives...'!

Like some, older, quiet, respected, unprejudiced, politically unaffiliated Thais told me: how could the country expect to reach any kind of reconciliation with such people, with a deep sigh, and a deeper lassitude in the tone of their voice...

IMHO, the number of Thai people who are now in despair about the future of their country is huge, much higher than the addition of all coloured factions red + yellow + blue + ...

It's the trump (no, not him) the military should have been going on playing, after the 'coup', the NCPO and the rest, what a huge missed opportunity, the more so after the Father of all Thais passed away (which funest probability NB was the real reason for the latest coup to be enscened).

I dare to say that at the time a VAST majority of real, true Thai people are lost and clueless!

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, than said:

Armed element from red shirts side. April 2010

You can tell from the photo they are from UDD? They could be agent provocateurs or renegade soldiers. Has anyone been caught and confessed. 

[Grubster]

I am for the people, at this point they have no say so I am against the Junta. The rich will never be happy with a government that gives some of their wealth to the people. I see the yellows as the rich, not that some reds aren't rich also. Have an election and live with the result is the only democratic way. 

[bangrak]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

What are you ranting about? Did I say I only counted the armed guards? The protesters were commonly referred to as red shirts, wether they were peacefull old ladies or not. As to being stupid and a liar, it is frequent that some people tend to attribute their own flaws to others.

Sorry, wouldn't you be the one 'ranting'? Come up with figures, confirmed by credible sources, that's what I asked you for!

90+ you wrote, well, please, do justify that figure!

Let's start with a simple one for you: how many of your/the 90+ who, sadly (this all didn't need to happen, as you must know, the 'reason' for it being one man's dellusion...) lost their life were peacefull red-shirt protesters?

You, must be able to at least tell us that one! Not the soldiers, the (silly) 'passers-by', the (daredevil) members of the press, ...the armed red-shirt guards, etc., no, just the 'other' ones, please?

[candide]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yea sure.. they come on stage.. proudly announce it.. people cheering..  no they knew nothing.. came as a total surprise.. no involvement what so ever.... i guess you believe in father Christmas too.

 

Good reason to keep to the law.. but not those guys.. they just kill unarmed people.. fine bunch just like the red sympathizer that bombed a hospital. 

 

The yellows never ever were this violent or went out of their way to make victims.. I can't remember any bombings of yellow on red.. (do point them out with news articles)

 

The reds came out to bomb protesters.. look up peaceful protests in Trad bomb and shoot them... 

 

Those leaders of the UDD.. you mean those innocent people that asked people to bring gasoline to burn BKK... those guys.. nah they are not violent at all. 

 

Don't pretend you don't know exactly what happened: the guy who said that was taken off the stage and disaproved by the other people who were on the same stage.

[candide]

14 minutes ago, bangrak said:

Sorry, wouldn't you be the one 'ranting'? Come up with figures, confirmed by credible sources, that's what I asked you for!

90+ you wrote, well, please, do justify that figure!

Let's start with a simple one for you: how many of your/the 90+ who, sadly (this all didn't need to happen, as you must know, the 'reason' for it being one man's dellusion...) lost their life were peacefull red-shirt protesters?

You, must be able to at least tell us that one! Not the soldiers, the (silly) 'passers-by', the (daredevil) members of the press, ...the armed red-shirt guards, etc., no, just the 'other' ones, please?

My mistake, it was only 80+.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Thai_military_crackdown

About your question (I don't know why you ask me, I did not state that all people who lost their lives were peacefull protesters), I guess that if you ask it, it is because you know the answer. So please share it! With sources, of course.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by candide

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, ChidlomDweller said:

"Easy" being the operative word.  That explains the popularity among junta apologists.

 

Seriously, it's a retarded argument and hard to take anyone seriously who makes it.  Instead of hating on everyone against the junta, try to think of some ideas on how to take the country forward and do something about the disparities here.

 

What I wanted to see in 2013 was letting the Thaksin clan implode on themselves for another couple of years, and meanwhile use the system the curb the worst excesses.  Eventually the political space would be filled with more decent and worth alternatives.  The position you're taking is just a recipe for the next 80 years to be the same as the past 80.  I'd rather stake my far-fetched hopes on democracy, and would appreciate not being called a redshirt in the meanwhile.

The UDD is quite happy to have a front layer of 'useful fools', old-style popular frontism. Check with Thida.

[bangrak]

4 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

You can tell from the photo they are from UDD? They could be agent provocateurs or renegade soldiers. Has anyone been caught and confessed. 

Thank you 'Eric' for that picture (seen quite a lot of the same kind, as most of us, but, still the UDD/PTP/Shins/TS are in denial, ...oh, well), and the people behind them are definitely despicable PAD yellow-shirts, is it?

'Renegade soldiers' you write, hmm, I'd partly agree with you on that, add some 'rangers' too, and they might together be part of the 'armed guard' the, ...rogue, Maj Gen 'Seh Daeng' was very vocal about (did 'that' cost him his life, after 'mission accomplished'...?), having been hiring and training them for ...Thaksin!

'AgentS provocateurs': oh my, you dare to write that! Of course that was the concept, to have a group of (some black clad) men, 'operating' in front of, and behind, the red-shirts 'fortifications'(!), able to move like the fish in the water, among the 'red-shirts' AND among the (pretorian guard of Thaksin) police's (un-)controlled areas, ruthless mercenaries (for whom human lifes are of no count) picking their targets, at bot 'sides'(!!!), to create as mush damage as possible, ...to serve the dirty, sick aims of who paid them!

Where they Thais? I don't know for sure, but I guess quite some were ('elite'-members of the 'ranger' units previously created and led by Seh Daeng, which had been disbanded because of the many, paid, murders they were accountable for...?), as for the others, some, IMO(*) where 'lent out' by Thaksin's big friend-dictator of Cambodia.

Call it 'theories' when you like, I will read your 'theories' about it, to give you honest, straight comment on.

 

(*) A couple of years later, when the, peacefull, (though unlawfull!) occupation of Bkk by the PDRC was going towards its end, when protesters, and some police officers, were shot at, wounded, killed, you had, what was it, the Labour Ministry, which was big-goon Thaksin friend-in-evil Chalerm's fortress; a BIL of mine, and a nephew, I'd both trust with my life, straight as arrows, the first a former service-man, none politically involved, told me, in disbelief, about several platoons there, in black police riot fatigues, strangely with no identification, badges nor ranks on, and more heavily armed, which caught their attention, because they were separated from the Thai riot police platoons, and, guess what, they were only communicating with one another in Khmer, even the, apparent, commanding officers not even understanding/speaking Thai, go and figure that one out, ...!      

[bangrak]

29 minutes ago, candide said:

My mistake, it was only 80+.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Thai_military_crackdown

About your question (I don't know why you ask me, I did not state that all people who lost their lives were peacefull protesters), I guess that if you ask it, it is because you know the answer. So please share it! With sources, of course.

 

No, OK, your 'word' will do for me, so, the 90+ were not all peacefully protesting red-shirts, mind you, when you would have told how many, in your opinion, were such peacefull protesting red-shirts, you might have been making a point, and it might have been of some value to me. But no then, whether you don't know, or it might be 'disturbing' for the propaganda theories you disperse to reveal, I don't know, I just thought you were so well informed, so much better than most of us...

[bangrak]

41 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The UDD is quite happy to have a front layer of 'useful fools', old-style popular frontism. Check with Thida.

Oh, please, don't categorise Thida as some 'usefull fool', ignoring the quantity of leathal venom that woman holds in her glands, far more than her co-Drs husband Weng, IMO! They both have let many of their dye-hard communist followers in dire straits, jailed, tortured, deported, some killed, while they both had negotiated their way out of it, renegging on all they pretended to believe in, and had infected many thousands of gullible, deprived, Thais with.

How anecdotical, it might me: do you know why the red-shirts wear ...red shirts? Well, it has all to do with Drs Thida and Weng! I explain: at the time Thaksin was creating(!) a popular movement to serve his(!) aims, he tried to gather as many people he could, from all possible 'horizons', walks-of-life, whatever 'tainted' that might be.

Among them the Drs and what 'following' they still had, their treason of their communist fellows aside, as the oath they had pledged to abandon all and every political activity, to buy-off their own freedom.

Well, that negotiation didn't go easy, one of the reasons of being they demanded(!), as a conditio-si-nequa-non, that the colour of the movement, and the one worn by its adherents would be... red. And its only in a last stage, when they stubbornly kept to that condition, and it could have become a no-go, that Thaksin, in the end gave in.

That's why the red-shirts are red! 

Edited July 23, 2017 by bangrak

[candide]

15 minutes ago, bangrak said:

No, OK, your 'word' will do for me, so, the 90+ were not all peacefully protesting red-shirts, mind you, when you would have told how many, in your opinion, were such peacefull protesting red-shirts, you might have been making a point, and it might have been of some value to me. But no then, whether you don't know, or it might be 'disturbing' for the propaganda theories you disperse to reveal, I don't know, I just thought you were so well informed, so much better than most of us...

Sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about: propaganda theories, etc...

My point, replying to Roblock, was that the high number of protesters killed in 2010 was a good reason for being cowards and not oppose the coup. I don't understand what your obsession about the share of peacefull or not peacefull has to do with my statement.

[bangrak]

9 minutes ago, candide said:

Sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about: propaganda theories, etc...

My point, replying to Roblock, was that the high number of protesters killed in 2010 was a good reason for being cowards and not oppose the coup. I don't understand what your obsession about the share of peacefull or not peacefull has to do with my statement.

Call it 'obsession' on my side, and let me call it 'selective blindness', to be polite, on your side. When having to choose between both, being a damn straight person, I will, very much, remain obsessed with the quest of the (one and only) truth (of the facts), and I will refrain from calling you ugly names.

But, sorry, unexpectedly I must say, because of your posts on this topic, you lost all credibility in my eyes.

And I am sad about that, as there were here already so few persons bringing forward the same ideas as you do in some acceptable way for a sound mind. Bye, 'candide'.

Edited July 23, 2017 by bangrak

[candide]

3 minutes ago, bangrak said:

Call it 'obsession' on my side, and let me call it 'selective blindness', to be polite, on your side. When having to choose between both, being a damn straight person, I will, very much, remain obsessed with the quest of the (one and only) truth (of the facts), and I will refrain from calling you ugly names.

But, sorry, unexpectedly I must say, because of your posts on this topic, you lost all credibility in my eyes.

And I am sad about that, as there were here already so few persons bringing forward the same ideas as you do in some acceptable way for a sound mind. Bye, 'candide'.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Pridilives]

10 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

They had a choice. Accept a democratic election. Thais are 50 years away from accepting democracy. The expats trying to impose their western version of democracy are actually even more clues less than the Thais!!

Maybe it take 50 years. Maybe not. But millions Thai fighting now for democracy and are making good progress. Expats not try impose anything. They just talk common sense. The clue less are the ones who just repeat junta propaganda about why Thai cannot have democracy.