Condo Maintenance fees

[scubascuba3]

I was looking at a 45m condo in Pattaya which has 1500 baht maintenance fees per month. Is this about right? Any idea what a reasonable monthly fee would be per metre?

 

If a condo resort is say 80% empty does this usually mean collection of maintenance fees could be an issue?

[inThailand]

33 Baht per sqm is not abnormal depending on the services provided.

 

The condo development by law must file annual audited financial statements. Also get the required recent months financial statements and the condo bylaws and rules and regs. With these documents you will get a sense of its status. I like to talk to one of the condo board members as well before making the plunge.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

I was looking at a 45m condo in Pattaya which has 1500 baht maintenance fees per month. Is this about right? Any idea what a reasonable monthly fee would be per metre?

 

That sounds quite likely for Pattaya. Some older buildings may be as low as 10B/sqm but most them would also have some obligatory yearly supplemental charge to make up the shortfall.

Some fancy new buildings here charge 50B/sqm or more, and generally the smaller the building the higher the charge is likely to be. The amount will also vary depending on how many facilities the condo has.

 

 

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

If a condo resort is say 80% empty does this usually mean collection of maintenance fees could be an issue?

Empty as in "unsold" or empty as in "unoccupied"?

 

The developer is liable to pay the common fee for unsold units. Unfortunately in such buildings the developer is often also the building management so there can be a conflict of interests.

 

Anyone who buys a unit is liable to pay the common fees even if he doesnt live there and the unit is empty. The condo act allows for interest to be charged on unpaid bills and specifically forbids any unit with debts from being sold. However the application of this is down to the JPM and not all of them are honest.

[trogers]

I wouldn't touch a condo project that has more than 20% unsold unit. It means the developer has not broken even.

 

Who has to pay what becomes theoretical in a bankruptcy...

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

That sounds quite likely for Pattaya. Some older buildings may be as low as 10B/sqm but most them would also have some obligatory yearly supplemental charge to make up the shortfall.

Some fancy new buildings here charge 50B/sqm or more, and generally the smaller the building the higher the charge is likely to be. The amount will also vary depending on how many facilities the condo has.

 

 

Empty as in "unsold" or empty as in "unoccupied"?

 

The developer is liable to pay the common fee for unsold units. Unfortunately in such buildings the developer is often also the building management so there can be a conflict of interests.

 

Anyone who buys a unit is liable to pay the common fees even if he doesnt live there and the unit is empty. The condo act allows for interest to be charged on unpaid bills and specifically forbids any unit with debts from being sold. However the application of this is down to the JPM and not all of them are honest.

Its a mix of mainly unsold but probably unoccupied also. The condo resort is completed.

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, trogers said:

I wouldn't touch a condo project that has more than 20% unsold unit. It means the developer has not broken even.

 

Who has to pay what becomes theoretical in a bankruptcy...

There were 500 built in 2013 i think, with around 100 for sale on hipflat. Apparently only 20% occupancy the last 2 years. Strange why so many for sale . I'm going to check it out on my next trip.

 

Construction co was Mahaporn Co., Ltd.

 

Project owner: Kiyana Co., Ltd.

 

Alarm bells?

[trogers]

10 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

There were 500 built in 2013 i think, with around 100 for sale on hipflat. Apparently only 20% occupancy the last 2 years. Strange why so many for sale . I'm going to check it out on my next trip.

 

Construction co was Mahaporn Co., Ltd.

 

Project owner: Kiyana Co., Ltd.

 

Alarm bells?

Why would you want to rub shoulders with tourists at your home? This project is actively marketed as a hotel...

[scubascuba3]

12 minutes ago, trogers said:

Why would you want to rub shoulders with tourists at your home? This project is actively marketed as a hotel...

I have no strong feelings about it either way. Condos such as Centara are doing similar. Plus most condos rent rooms out to tourists

[Henryford]

On 8/4/2017 at 1:32 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I have no strong feelings about it either way. Condos such as Centara are doing similar. Plus most condos rent rooms out to tourists

There is a big difference to a few rooms being rented for over 30 days and living in a hotel with hundreds of short term guests. A nightmare especially as the maintenance drops.

[inThailand]

At one time, the best managed and best for rental returns were condos managed by a hotel. With the rental/hotel market significantly not as lucrative as before this may no longer be the case. 

[Gary A]

My condo in Jomtien is 60 square meters and the maintenance fee is 10 baht per square meter per month. In the more than 10 years that I have owned it, there have never been any other fees or adjustments. In fact at one annual meeting everyone at the meeting was given 2,000 baht because we had a surplus.

[inThailand]

It must be a quality condo with excessive fees of $17 per month? Are you neighbors hookers?

[Gary A]

5 minutes ago, inThailand said:

It must be a quality condo with excessive fees of $17 per month? Are you neighbors hookers?

I consider that an obnoxious statement. In fact, it is a very nice, large well kept complex. The grounds and swimming pools are pristine and security is top shelf. The condo committee are owners rather than a hired company. Why would you make a ridiculous statement like that?

[inThailand]

Please share with us the name of your condo development?

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, Gary A said:

In fact at one annual meeting everyone at the meeting was given 2,000 baht because we had a surplus.

 

Only those at the meeting? As far as I can see that would not have been legal, though as such it would just join the very long list of illegal actions in condo management here.

 

The correct way to handle a surplus is to make a rebate on the next year's common fee to all co-owners (possibly not to those in arrears).

[inThailand]

2 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Only those at the meeting? As far as I can see that would not have been legal, though as such it would just join the very long list of illegal actions in condo management here.

 

The correct way to handle a surplus is to make a rebate on the next year's common fee to all co-owners (possibly not to those in arrears).

Yes it sounds like a bribe not a surplus and clearly not normal or legal.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, Gary A said:

The condo committee are owners rather than a hired company.

 

The committee should be composed of co-owners or, exceptionally, someone acting as a co-owner's agent. And they should be elected by the vote of other co-owners. It would never be a hired company per se.

 

A management company would be a hired company, so perhaps you mean that your building has no management company but just has a JPM and some staff who globally take instructions from the committee.

[kwonitoy]

On 04/08/2017 at 4:04 AM, scubascuba3 said:

I was looking at a 45m condo in Pattaya which has 1500 baht maintenance fees per month. Is this about right? Any idea what a reasonable monthly fee would be per metre?

 

If a condo resort is say 80% empty does this usually mean collection of maintenance fees could be an issue?

I have a 145 m condo in VT7, I pay 18,000 baht annually for condo maintenance which comes in at  the same 1,500 per month for a place that's 3X the size of yours.

Go look at VT 7, well run, good security, clean as a whistle, pool in great condition, good maintenance 

FWIW

[smutcakes]

9 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Only those at the meeting? As far as I can see that would not have been legal, though as such it would just join the very long list of illegal actions in condo management here.

 

The correct way to handle a surplus is to make a rebate on the next year's common fee to all co-owners (possibly not to those in arrears).

If your condo is managed well enough to have a surplus and still be well maintained i would be very happy and keep the surplus tucked nicely in the bank for a rainy day.

 

Trying to rebate it would open more problems than it worth.

[Gary A]

12 hours ago, inThailand said:

Please share with us the name of your condo development?

 

Baan Suan Lalana on Soi Chaiyapruk, Jomtien.

10 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Only those at the meeting? As far as I can see that would not have been legal, though as such it would just join the very long list of illegal actions in condo management here.

 

The correct way to handle a surplus is to make a rebate on the next year's common fee to all co-owners (possibly not to those in arrears).

 

The 2,000 baht was an incentive to attend the annual meeting. It was not given to everyone.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

If your condo is managed well enough to have a surplus and still be well maintained i would be very happy and keep the surplus tucked nicely in the bank for a rainy day.

 

Technically you cant do that. A condo is, supposedly, a non-profit business. The books should balance at the end of the year but should not show a profit or a loss.

 

You could, in theory, take any excess balance and apply it to the sinking fund but only to the point where that is fully paid-up.

 

 

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Trying to rebate it would open more problems than it worth.

 

Not at all. It is the only legal and simple way of dealing with it.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Gary A said:

The 2,000 baht was an incentive to attend the annual meeting. It was not given to everyone.

 

I suspect that this is completely illegal.

[smutcakes]

18 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Technically you cant do that. A condo is, supposedly, a non-profit business. The books should balance at the end of the year but should not show a profit or a loss.

 

You could, in theory, take any excess balance and apply it to the sinking fund but only to the point where that is fully paid-up.

 

 

 

Not at all. It is the only legal and simple way of dealing with it.

In 12 years in the business i have never met a condo repay money, even those who run at a surplus, or ever had a co-owner in those properties request money back. A well run condo would run with a slight surplus. Those funds would simply be retained in the operational accounts for the following year, or transferred to saving account for a rainy day.

 

[KittenKong]

3 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

In 12 years in the business i have never met a condo repay money, even those who run at a surplus, or ever had a co-owner in those properties request money back. A well run condo would run with a slight surplus. Those funds would simply be retained in the operational accounts for the following year, or transferred to saving account for a rainy day.

 

I didnt say that they should repay it. I said that they should rebate it next year. There is a big difference. Small cash-flow surpluses (or deficits) would obviously just be carried over.

 

"Rainy day" money is what the sinking fund is for, and this has a maximum value. Some co-owners might be unhappy for more money to be collected than is actually needed, and the committee and JPM have no authority to do so unless it is specifically agreed by co-owner vote at a GM.

[smutcakes]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

 

I didnt say that they should repay it. I said that they should rebate it next year. There is a big difference. Small cash-flow surpluses (or deficits) would obviously just be carried over.

 

"Rainy day" money is what the sinking fund is for, and this has a maximum value. Some co-owners might be unhappy for more money to be collected than is actually needed, and the committee and JPM have no authority to do so unless it is specifically agreed by co-owner vote at a GM.

I have never seen a rebate given or asked for either. I have probably attended close to 300 Committee meetings, and 50 AGM's in 25 condominiums in Bangkok and Pattaya and i have never ever heard it mentioned or asked for by anyone, and that's even with some of those Condo's being close to full scale war. I would be very surprised if it widely done. Perhaps it is a thing in some condos where it was initiated by a very early Committee and carried on.

[scubascuba3]

If people aren't paying maintenance fees due, when the condo sells all fees must be settled before transfer of ownership? Or is it just up to the buyer to ensure maintenance is all paid up?

[smutcakes]

34 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

If people aren't paying maintenance fees due, when the condo sells all fees must be settled before transfer of ownership? Or is it just up to the buyer to ensure maintenance is all paid up?

Transfer of a Condominium units cannot take place without a debt free certificate issued and signed by the  Condominium Juristic Person Manager that their are no monies owed on that unit. There are obviously crooked JPM's or strange situations around this, but generally this is the rule and in my view works and is enforced well.

 

I have seen in some condos which are solvent and do not have money issues, they are quite happy to only do limited chasing of debts after a while as they know they will get the money back at some point and in the meantime the debt is accumulating at a far higher interest rate than it would in a bank. Obviously that can only be done when its a small amount of defaulters.

[Gary A]

All I know for sure is what I pay every month and how the grounds are maintained. I know nothing about condo laws and really don't care as long as the grounds are taken care of and my maintenance fees are reasonable.

 

Why would I possibly want to debate things that have nothing to do the OP's original question. I replied and offered my opinion to the post because I think the rates he quoted are on the high side. Of course, like so many topics, TV has all sorts of experts who know everything about everything.

[scubascuba3]

Transfer of a Condominium units cannot take place without a debt free certificate issued and signed by the  Condominium Juristic Person Manager that their are no monies owed on that unit. There are obviously crooked JPM's or strange situations around this, but generally this is the rule and in my view works and is enforced well.
 
I have seen in some condos which are solvent and do not have money issues, they are quite happy to only do limited chasing of debts after a while as they know they will get the money back at some point and in the meantime the debt is accumulating at a far higher interest rate than it would in a bank. Obviously that can only be done when its a small amount of defaulters.

Interesting. I know when i was involved in the management committee of a block of flats in the UK, it was easier to get the overdue maintenance once the flat was sold.