Ireland floats special EU-UK customs union as way to break Brexit logjam

[7by7]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm pretty sure that, before my wife got her British passport, she had to apply for a visa to travel to Northern Ireland, even though she had an ILR in her Thai passport. She certainly had to do that when we visited Gibraltar, and everyone's travel documents were checked before we got landside there even though the flight was direct from the mainland.

Your memory is playing you false.

 

Anyone who holds a valid UK visa or entry clearance or leave to remain can freely travel to any part of the UK.

 

Northern Ireland is part of the UK; Gibraltar isn't. However, UK ILR holders do not need a visa to enter Gibraltar.

 

H. M. Government of Gibraltar, Visas and Immigration

Quote

2. The following persons do not need a visa for Gibraltar

(g)  persons holding EU issued family permits, UK Residence Permits valid for a period of 12 months or more, UK Biometric Residence permits or a UK multiple entry visa issued for 6 months or more.

(7by7 emphasis)

Obviously UK ILR, having no time limit, is valid for more than 12 months.

 

However, UK ILR does not entitle the holder to enter the RoI.

Edited August 5, 2017 by 7by7

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

Your post is almost sensible

 

Countries have had borders operating between them for a very long time, just like exists now between various counties - nobody will be allowed to travel unless they have proper permission to enter the country of their destination, how simple is that

That's very kind of you!

 

BUT

 

Right now, effective U.K. Border (incoming) is in Calais. Do you think France will continue with that?

[7by7]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

So where exactly do you envisage the border with France? In Calais? In Dover? Mid English Channel?

 What's wrong with the present arrangement?

 

French immigration is passed through in the UK, e.g. before boarding the ferry at Dover; whilst UK immigration ispassed through in France, e.g. before boarding the train at the Gard du Nord. (Edit: I now see, Grouse, that you know that; your post above appeared while I was typing.)

 

This is a bilateral arrangement and nothing to do with the EU; as such there is no reason why it cannot continue post Brexit.

 

There is no reason why a similar arrangement cannot be made between the UK and the RoI to cover ferries between the two countries.

 

Of course, the land border is different. The Irish Immigration Garda already carry out random checks on people crossing North to South; maybe UK Border Force will do the same for those travelling South to North?

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by 7by7

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 What's wrong with the present arrangement?

 

French immigration is passed through in the UK, e.g. before boarding the ferry at Dover; whilst UK immigration ispassed through in France, e.g. before boarding the train at the Gard du Nord.

 

This is a bilateral arrangement and nothing to do with the EU; as such there is no reason why it cannot continue post Brexit.

 

There is no reason why a similar arrangement cannot be made between the UK and the RoI to cover ferries between the two countries.

 

Of course, the land border is different. The Irish Immigration Garda already carry out random checks on people crossing North to South; maybe UK Border Force will do the same for those travelling South to North?

 

Er, good will?

 

Why should France tolerate all the potential immigrants to the UK in Calais?

 

Think about it!!

[7by7]

Just now, Grouse said:

Er, good will?

 

Why should France tolerate all the potential immigrants to the UK in Calais?

 

Think about it!!

Because they already do?

 

Think about the refugee camps around Calais.

 

Although you do have a point; why should France accommodate them once the UK is no longer an EU partner. The French government could simply ship them all across the channel and say it's our problem now!

 

A potential problem Brexiteers don't like to talk about.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

So who is stalling or making unreasonable demands - I know exactly who and I also believe as I said above they doing it on purpose. 

Right, that's it! Nobody is going home until I get an answer! Has anyone got a gym shoe? 

[7by7]

Contrary to the belief of some, free movement within the Common Travel Area, which includes the Channel islands and Isle of Man as well as the RoI and UK, only applies to citizens of the members.

 

All others, even EU and EEA nationals, need the appropriate documents, including if required a visa, to enter one part of the CTA from another.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Because they already do?

 

Think about the refugee camps around Calais.

 

Although you do have a point; why should France accommodate them once the UK is no longer an EU partner. The French government could simply ship them all across the channel and say it's our problem now!

 

A potential problem Brexiteers don't like to talk about.

Exactly 

[Kieranmc]

Leo is speaking sense and trying to put forward solutions. Just a shame no one else is. 

[the guest]

Re-unification of the whole country would solve a lot of problems, and then let the Irish sort their own country out. It won't be the first time the British have left their citizens high and dry. 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Because they already do?

 

Think about the refugee camps around Calais.

 

Although you do have a point; why should France accommodate them once the UK is no longer an EU partner. The French government could simply ship them all across the channel and say it's our problem now!

 

A potential problem Brexiteers don't like to talk about.

 

The UK could quite legally ship them back to Calais.

 

It is a French problem and NOT a UK problem.

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, Richard W said:

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm pretty sure that, before my wife got her British passport, she had to apply for a visa to travel to Northern Ireland, even though she had an ILR in her Thai passport.

Who do you recall issuing it?

 

We didn't actually go to NI, we went to Gib instead (a big mistake, but that's a whole other story). The visa for there was straightforward, and issued within two weeks by the relevant government department. I was looking for holiday destinations that were easy for my wife to visit on her Thai passport. Admittedly, it was over twelve years ago, so I'm going off distant memory.

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Your memory is playing you false.

 

Anyone who holds a valid UK visa or entry clearance or leave to remain can freely travel to any part of the UK.

 

Northern Ireland is part of the UK; Gibraltar isn't. However, UK ILR holders do not need a visa to enter Gibraltar.

 

H. M. Government of Gibraltar, Visas and Immigration

Obviously UK ILR, having no time limit, is valid for more than 12 months.

 

However, UK ILR does not entitle the holder to enter the RoI.

 

You're right. I just checked, and the Gibraltar visa was when my wife was on a six month visa prior to her first full visa (which also wasn't ILR! It was the two year one). Excuse me the senior moment!

[smedly]

7 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Then why haven't the UK brexit team said that?  All they are saying is that "negotiations are going well".  The EU are saying "we are waiting for the UK to respond".  Even Gove has backtracked on the fishing rites, now saying that the EU countries will still have fishing rites in the UK waters after Brexit.  Nothing to come now until the autumn,  three quarters of a million British people off to Europe this week for their summer hols, unfortunately with less money in their pockets than they would have liked!

They have said it..........over and over, be very careful what media you are listening too and reading, since this whole brexit saga started one thing it has done for me is highlight how the various media outlets report stuff - I look at a headline then read the content - there is almost never a match, I watch Sky news and they are far from neutral, the presenters have their own agenda and their own spin on things and it is generally wrong and seriously biased

 

If you want to believe something and trust something....................listen to it coming from official sources unedited - otherwise it is garbage

 

and there was no back tracking on fishing.............you are seriously uninformed

 

The UK will take back control of its waters and run it as they see fit, they may allow fishing in UK waters if it suits the UK.........the point being .............control, sounds pretty fair to me

 

As it stands - a lot of seafood is caught in UK waters - processed in mainland Europe and sold back to the UK....go figure, your fish supper has traveled from 30 miles away when it was caught and then travels hundreds of miles to reach you plate...cha ching

 

 

go do a little research before you make ............................................

 

[smedly]

6 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Well the pound is on the floor, the economy is stalling (growth prediction for the next quarter is down again), prices in the shops has risen but apart from that everything is hunky dory!  That is what I mean by not having as much money in their pockets.  Still maybe they have all packed their rose tinted glasses and everything will be glorious!

yes people living abroad are taking a huge hit as the vultures in our economic world manipulate sterling based on uncertainty, it is a given and is making a lot people a lot of money that is for sure, when there is certainty it will all go the other way, Sterling will rocket up and the FTSE will plummet with probably one of the biggest sell offs in its history - that in itself might cause major problems.............that is how the dirty market works and it is dirty and rotten to the core - you heard it here first but you will be the last to here it as the market and currency will move way before the official press releases. 

[smedly]

6 hours ago, rickudon said:

The Irish question will be settled anyway - after the next general election or the one after - by Northern Ireland opting to join the Irish Republic. Sheer matter of Demographics, Protestants now make up less than 50% of the population, Brexit may just make this happen in all but name a bit earlier, 87% of Northern Ireland farmer's incomes come from EU payments, do you want to subsidise them from the British Taxpayers pocket? 

 

The solution to all these problems is obvious ....

so you think it is a protestant catholic thing ? you are so seriously wrong about that

 

what you might find is that Ireland leaves the EU and joins up with the UK once it sees that free world trade without the EU works better 

[smedly]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Prior to 1st January 2005, anyone born on the island of Ireland was automatically entitled to Irish citizenship and thus an Irish passport. This still applies to people born before that date who have not yet claimed their Irish citizenship

 

Anyone born on the island of Ireland on or after that date is also entitled to Irish citizenship and an Irish passport if at least one of their parents was Irish, British or, if neither, had no time restriction on their residency in the RoI or UK.

 

As both the RoI and the UK allow dual nationality, neither government have any problem with this and there are many citizens of Northern Ireland who have, for one reason or another, both Irish and British nationality.

 

Allowing citizens of Northern Ireland dual Irish and British nationality has never effected the Province's status as part of the UK, and there is no reason why it should do so in the future.

 

As part of the 1999 Good Friday Agreement, the Irish government dropped their claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland with the nineteenth amendment to the constitution; which basically says that Northern Ireland will remain politically part of the UK and so not become part of the RoI unless and until the majority of people living in Northern Ireland wish it.

what stupid nonsense is that, tell you what, if you can - get yourself an Irish Passport and then try to claim and Irish Government Pension, having a passport means absolutely nothing - it might save you 30mins in an airport ............. go for it lol

 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

yes people living abroad are taking a huge hit as the vultures in our economic world manipulate sterling based on uncertainty, it is a given and is making a lot people a lot of money that is for sure, when there is certainty it will all go the other way, Sterling will rocket up and the FTSE will plummet with probably one of the biggest sell offs in its history - that in itself might cause major problems.............that is how the dirty market works and it is dirty and rotten to the core - you heard it here first but you will be the last to here it as the market and currency will move way before the official press releases. 

 

When the brexit negotiations settle down (and they will once Merkel and her team realise that the UK is not going to blink first), the currency speculators and manipulators will mostly move on, and Sterling will consolidate against the Euro, the same as it has done against the USD. Expect the forum's remainers to move on to one of the Scandi-Krona or the Japanese Yen or some such as their benchmark (with daft/tenuous explanations as to the relevance), just as they've now forgotten about the USD.

[smedly]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

That's very kind of you!

 

BUT

 

Right now, effective U.K. Border (incoming) is in Calais. Do you think France will continue with that?

they have no choice under international treaties, you really are letting yourself down now

 

 

Here is an example, buy a ticket to the USA, go to the airport on the day of your departure, go through the front door to the departure lounge and go to check in, I will give you 10mins and you will be walking straight back out the door again - the one with the big sign that says "EXIT" Bus Station this way with an arrow

 

Honestly are you being serious or now trolling and baiting

[smedly]

search msn for the following - UK should be better prepared for no deal on Brexit, says ex-Bank governor

 

from an educated man talking sense and pretty much saying it all

 

He is saying they need to be better prepared, I think they are prepared but it is a challenge, the best solution is simple - something reasonable that works for all  - the EU needs the UK, further down the road the UK may not need the EU so much

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

32 minutes ago, smedly said:

search msn for the following - UK should be better prepared for no deal on Brexit, says ex-Bank governor

 

from an educated man talking sense and pretty much saying it all

 

He is saying they need to be better prepared, I think they are prepared but it is a challenge, the best solution is simple - something reasonable that works for all  - the EU needs the UK, further down the road the UK may not need the EU so much

 

 

 

 

Correct. But I would replace the words 'may not' with the words 'will not'.

[citybiker]

Leo is speaking sense and trying to put forward solutions. Just a shame no one else is. 

Leo maybe speaking diplomatic sense however 'common sense' is in short supply from his emperors in Brussels. Just warnings & threats (i.e.: clock ticking replies aimed at BoJo)

Leo's right stating Brexit is the challenge of today, however his priority is Ireland & minimising the financial litigation affect that Brexit may bring.

Brexit, NI & the GFA are one of the first top three issues Davis & Barnier are currently tackling, Barnier should refrain from his intimidating media releases and remember the negotiations are not a political poker game. (Barnier, previously being part of the GFA team should lead by example).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

they have no choice under international treaties, you really are letting yourself down now

 

 

Here is an example, buy a ticket to the USA, go to the airport on the day of your departure, go through the front door to the departure lounge and go to check in, I will give you 10mins and you will be walking straight back out the door again - the one with the big sign that says "EXIT" Bus Station this way with an arrow

 

Honestly are you being serious or now trolling and baiting

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37921598

 

The BBC trolling and baiting?

 

No idea what your airport rant is supposed to mean. I go where the sign says Fast Track ?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/28/emmanuel-macron-wants-renegotiate-calais-border-treaty/

Edited August 6, 2017 by Grouse
Pity

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

search msn for the following - UK should be better prepared for no deal on Brexit, says ex-Bank governor

 

from an educated man talking sense and pretty much saying it all

 

He is saying they need to be better prepared, I think they are prepared but it is a challenge, the best solution is simple - something reasonable that works for all  - the EU needs the UK, further down the road the UK may not need the EU so much

 

 

 

King's name has gone to his head. He's been uttering inanities for a while now. Carney is a superior source

[JAG]

If Germans are anything they're pragmatists! 

 

They even have a word word for it: Pragmatismus ?

I appreciate the intensity of your admiration for all things German, but can I point out that there is an English word for "pragmatismus", we call it "pragmatism"!

 

Much of the rest of the world have regarded it as a particularly British trait for centuries...

 

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, JAG said:

I appreciate the intensity of your admiration for all things German, but can I point out that there is an English word for "pragmatismus", we call it "pragmatism"!

 

Much of the rest of the world have regarded it as a particularly British trait for centuries...

 

So is humour!

[smedly]

4 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

Leo maybe speaking diplomatic sense however 'common sense' is in short supply from his emperors in Brussels. Just warnings & threats (i.e.: clock ticking replies aimed at BoJo)

Leo's right stating Brexit is the challenge of today, however his priority is Ireland & minimising the financial litigation affect that Brexit may bring.

Brexit, NI & the GFA are one of the first top three issues Davis & Barnier are currently tackling, Barnier should refrain from his intimidating media releases and remember the negotiations are not a political poker game. (Barnier, previously being part of the GFA team should lead by example).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

well said and agree 100%, he is not helping at all and trying to shift all the blame for no progress on the UK team when in fact it is the ridiculous demands that are stopping the process moving forward and as I have stated many times - I believe that is the tactic - they need the UK team to walk which in turn will test the resolve of the British people, if they don't get the effect they want then that will be a game changer and they will be right back at the table and the talks will actually make progress

 

and just because the UK doesn't give news updates on a daily basis doesn't mean they are weak, May was right in what she said making it clear that the UK was prepared to walk away but it seems Mr Barnier wants to test it

 

What I see when it is all concluded is

 

- a customs and Free Trade Arrangement that the UK may pay an annual fee to cover admin costs

- The UK free to trade with whoever they like

- The UK having full control of its laws and borders

- an exit fee of no more than 20b pounds

- EU citizens still able to work in the UK if they have a job to go too and qualify for a work permit but will have limited or no access to welfare

- Irish citizens still able to enter the UK maintaining their special status which will work both ways as it has done for decades 

 

sounds about right and should work for all

[smedly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

King's name has gone to his head. He's been uttering inanities for a while now. Carney is a superior source

and what is it exactly you don't agree with, everything he said makes perfect sense to me.

 

 

The joke of the last decade was the Scotish vote for independence - first joke was "independent Scotland" and wanting to be in the EU, how on earth is that independent lol

 

the second - if the vote had gone the other way how would Scotland be doing now because shortly after the referendum the price of oil went through the floor something they were constantly warned about but it fell on Salmond and Sturgons very deaf ears.

 

Scotland would have had less to offer as an EU member than Greece and look how they are getting along, the only thing that would have changed was the source of your handouts switching from England to the EU but with the EU there are many financial clauses and demands before money is handed over in bailouts as Greece has found out.  

 

and remember that if Scotland had left the United Kingdom they would have had to take away a share of the UK national debt which they contributed too.

[Grouse]

57 minutes ago, smedly said:

and what is it exactly you don't agree with, everything he said makes perfect sense to me.

 

 

The joke of the last decade was the Scotish vote for independence - first joke was "independent Scotland" and wanting to be in the EU, how on earth is that independent lol

 

the second - if the vote had gone the other way how would Scotland be doing now because shortly after the referendum the price of oil went through the floor something they were constantly warned about but it fell on Salmond and Sturgons very deaf ears.

 

Scotland would have had less to offer as an EU member than Greece and look how they are getting along, the only thing that would have changed was the source of your handouts switching from England to the EU but with the EU there are many financial clauses and demands before money is handed over in bailouts as Greece has found out.  

 

and remember that if Scotland had left the United Kingdom they would have had to take away a share of the UK national debt which they contributed too.

What has Scotland got to do with this discussion?

[Orac]

well said and agree 100%, he is not helping at all and trying to shift all the blame for no progress on the UK team when in fact it is the ridiculous demands that are stopping the process moving forward and as I have stated many times - I believe that is the tactic - they need the UK team to walk which in turn will test the resolve of the British people, if they don't get the effect they want then that will be a game changer and they will be right back at the table and the talks will actually make progress
 
and just because the UK doesn't give news updates on a daily basis doesn't mean they are weak, May was right in what she said making it clear that the UK was prepared to walk away but it seems Mr Barnier wants to test it
 
What I see when it is all concluded is
 
- a customs and Free Trade Arrangement that the UK may pay an annual fee to cover admin costs
- The UK free to trade with whoever they like
- The UK having full control of its laws and borders
- an exit fee of no more than 20b pounds
- EU citizens still able to work in the UK if they have a job to go too and qualify for a work permit but will have limited or no access to welfare
- Irish citizens still able to enter the UK maintaining their special status which will work both ways as it has done for decades 
 
sounds about right and should work for all

According to Sunday Telegraph today the UK position is 'no more than' 40bn euros which will effectivly make it our opening bid so 20b pounds will be way too low.