How to get a patent ?

[skippybangkok]

Am sure some guys have some experience here. Would like to make a patent for children care product

 

How to go about it. I remember there are member countries , it register in one , you get 2 years to register in the rest (?)

 

What lawyers to use ?

 

Thanks

 

 

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[The Dancer]

Best is to make a provisional patent first. Couple of years ago it was $100 at the USPTO site. A foolproof patent is a heckuva lot harder to write and you'll probably need help of patent lawyers, figure $5000 at least.

 

Recommended is to go with the provisional first, which gives you protection for a year, and then decide if to go full monty.

 

If I remember a patent in any one of the signatory countries (of the international patent org) is valid in all of them. But I have no idea how to apply for one in Thailand and I bet docs will be in Thai.

[c18gmr]

41 minutes ago, The Dancer said:

Best is to make a provisional patent first. Couple of years ago it was $100 at the USPTO site. A foolproof patent is a heckuva lot harder to write and you'll probably need help of patent lawyers, figure $5000 at least.

 

Recommended is to go with the provisional first, which gives you protection for a year, and then decide if to go full monty.

 

If I remember a patent in any one of the signatory countries (of the international patent org) is valid in all of them. But I have no idea how to apply for one in Thailand and I bet docs will be in Thai.

 

 

Once you apply for a patent you have 12 months to submit a PCT which gives 30 months to apply in each country you want the patent to be valid.  

 

A patent is only valid in the countries you then apply fully to.  

 

[Estrada]

I gave up filing for Patents many years ago as it took so long to get the Patent that I had already invented a much improved version. In the meantime you have to pay a lot of legal fees to defend your patent and it is just not worth it as the Patent drawings and specification are of sufficient detail to allow someone to produce a similar product cheaper and just by changing a few features circumvent your patent. My success was to outsell the companies trying to copy my products. As for Thailand, 30 years ago I launched a design for a low cost packaged sewage plant in plastic for houses. This was copied by one  company who even copied our UK brochure which he translated into Thai. My agent sued successfully only to find that another dozen Thai Companies had copied the design. To date there must be a million of these plastic sewage plants installed all based on my design. I also saw an Oil Skimmer which won Thai Inventor of the year award which was an exact copy of a Vikoma skimmer. As for the Rotating fish slice aerators....................

[wombat]

a patent can be found in the same box as rocking horse sh1t. just next to the hens teeth so I'm told

[F4UCorsair]

Secure the patent. ....then watch as manufacturers in China, India, Vietnam,  and a host of others pirate your design, with impunity! 

[timendres]

Patent protection here in Thailand, as others have noted, is virtually non-existent.

There may be better approaches to protecting your interests than a patent.

Patent filing and approval in the US is time consuming and expensive, so it better be worth the investment.

Even having a patent, it is your problem to enforce it, which also can present huge problems and expenses.

For most endeavors, it is a pointless exercise, but in some cases is well justified.

[Craig krup]

I did this in the UK years ago. It was a decent idea. The patent agent - who seemed pretty straight - said, "That's quite clever. I see a lot of stuff, but that's quite good". 

 

But -  If I steal your car the cops will arrest me. If I steal your idea it's a civil matter. No private individual can afford to defend a patent. In the UK you need to show a genuine "inventive step". In the US the parent office will pocket the money and patent anything, but you won't win in court. There's a US state (IIRC) which doesn't have "loser pays" laws, so nuisance companies buy up patents and submit frivolous law suits in the hope that people pay them a couple of grand to go away. 

 

Also remember, the whole point of making something patent - obvious - is that others can see how it's done. Lots of companies rely on secrecy rather than patents precisely because the patent helps someone else to do a version of what you've done, which is just different enough to not breach your patent. 

 

Trademarks and registered designs are a better way for companies to protect themselves, particularly the former. Even registered design is a nightmare: a certain number of "points of dissimilarity" allows people to produce something awfully similar to your design. 

 

So - patenting! It's a bit like marriage. Don't get married, just find a woman you don't like and buy her a house. Patenting? Find a toilet and decide how much money you'd like to flush down it. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Craig krup

[skippybangkok]

Thanks guys - that’s really good input .

A few things, having advised many large listed Thai companies, I have been in meetings where copy right has been discussed - and it’s clear to me , they would not take the risk. Even simple things as ie streaming a live event on Facebook gets them into trouble if there is a hit song playing in the back ground . On the telecoms side, the NBTC licenses are linked to not infringing copy right, and they pay close attention in their contracts to this. Even so, plan to sell this in many countries , but Thailand would be a good start cause I live here

Yes, am sure that sme’s and road side vendors are a different class and don’t give a hoot about copyright

The product is simple , but amazingly, all the engineers / scientists have gone down the super complex road, the product is super simple and works better and way cheaper. - maybe no comparing to Enstein, but his e=mc2 was so elegant and simple, and this is the same

Anyway - the product would sell via large stores, lazada, Amazon which won’t want copy right squabbles etc and if small shops copy it , not an issue. If I get the volume, maybe they could not even beat me on price

Although no one likes to spend, as per the above ie $5000, to me it’s worth it, even if it becomes a over priced door stop

Thanks again






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[Rc2702]

Amazon.

You would think given they operate within US and EU jurisdictions where patents and design rights can be upheld they would act responsibly. 

 

Not at all and the hoops they make you jump through and even when you have proved it to say 1 amazon entity in Europe.  You have to go through the same charade again in each amazon entity in europe. .fr.Co.uk. it.ES. de etc 

 

Amazon are extremely difficult.

 

Here is another case:

 

Bunch o balloons 100 water balloons in a minute. Patented system completely robbed of sales on amazon by inferior products.

 

Amazon is the worst place to sell and yet not many companies can afford not to.

 

Saw so much fake production the last few years and it's not just small companies who partake there's hundreds of examples of fake items sold by well known companies and the cost of getting them to stop and pay for loss if sales is just too high.

 

Of all the things that can surely be contested and won in court you would think lawyers would be offering no win no fee but it's just not there the support is next to f uck all. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Rc2702

[skippybangkok]

Amazon.
You would think given they operate within US and EU jurisdictions where patents and design rights can be upheld they would act responsibly. 
 
Not at all and the hoops they make you jump through and even when you have proved it to say 1 amazon entity in Europe.  You have to go through the same charade again in each amazon entity in europe. .fr.Co.uk. it.ES. de etc 
 
Amazon are extremely difficult.
 
Here is another case:
 
Bunch o balloons 100 water balloons in a minute. Patented system completely robbed of sales on amazon by inferior products.
 
Amazon is the worst place to sell and yet not many companies can afford not to.
 
Saw so much fake production the last few years and it's not just small companies who partake there's hundreds of examples of fake items sold by well known companies and the cost of getting them to stop and pay for loss if sales is just too high.
 
Of all the things that can surely be contested and won in court you would think lawyers would be offering no win no fee but it's just not there the support is next to f uck all. 
 
 
 
 

Thanks.... so what’s the solution, seems like forget it ? I am kind of leaning towards the balanced approach an earlier person stated, try to get some protection but focus on outselling / branding them

Design protection might be interesting too


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[luk AJ]

First, it is important to decide if a patent is the best solution. If the product/ formula can be kept secret inhouse, better not patent. A patent becomes public and thus available for easy copy.
If you cannot hide the secret, you need patent. I work with a good professional patent bureau in Singapore.


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[oldcarguy]

read a lot of patents , most of what you are using is "prior art" and anyone can use it ,

 

so what makes your product unique ?

 

We thought a product we invented was unique , the US patent office sent us back prior art  from  1890s that was very close to our design ,   We did get a patent on a couple non important points , but I would never try and defend that in court.

 

If you have the chance , go to a US Patent office , there are smaller ones across the country ,

not sure if they still have them , but years ago they had paper copies of the front page of the patent you can look at ,

 

They are also on Google ,

 

look at an item like yours and then look at the prior art , follow that and look at that products prior art....on and on,

you will be amazed at all the neat things  with patents from 50-100 years ago .....

 

a patent just gives you the right to sue someone in court for infringement , you have to pay your lawyer ........

 

Good luck........

 

 

[Craig krup]

In the UK if you came up with something which you thought others were likely to eventually arrive at - and you couldn't afford patenting and all the hassle - you could create proof that you'd invented the product and then, when some company does the hard yards, turn up and say, "Give me a piece of cheese". The threat is that you bust their patent by proving it wasn't an invention (Kamikaze option), or you license your design to one of their competitors. 

[Rc2702]

7 hours ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

Thanks.... so what’s the solution, seems like forget it ? I am kind of leaning towards the balanced approach an earlier person stated, try to get some protection but focus on outselling / branding them

Design protection might be interesting too


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Design and yes a catchy name that is extremely identifiable and trade marked Your not in the worst market to push the safety aspect which should be drilled home hard at all times. Packaging with big warnings etc would help deliver the safety aspect message too and that's the first concern for a kids toy IMO. It's doable for sure and actually as it is a children's product I'm thinking it would be less appealing to copy for the safety reason.

 

Case in point.  Illoom balloons - they have been sold into most major western stores they are not protected but the fact they are aimed at kids and the safety hazard messages has pretty much protected them long term.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Rc2702

[impulse]

You're going to end up here eventually.  May as well be at the start...

 

https://www.uspto.gov/

[Craig krup]

Catchy names can ultimately be a nightmare if they become colloquialisms. Everyone in the UK calls vacuum cleaners "Hoovers" and every aerated pool is called a "Jacuzzi". Mind you, that's a late-stage problem. 

[skippybangkok]

You're going to end up here eventually.  May as well be at the start...
 
https://www.uspto.gov/

Thanks everyone


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[blackcab]

.

Edited August 17, 2017 by blackcab

[Rc2702]

2 hours ago, Craig krup said:

Catchy names can ultimately be a nightmare if they become colloquialisms. Everyone in the UK calls vacuum cleaners "Hoovers" and every aerated pool is called a "Jacuzzi". Mind you, that's a late-stage problem. 

Interesting so what would happen in that sense. Jacuzzi I'm assuming began as a brand name but the name can then be pulled out of ones IP if it should explode and say get refermented in a dictionary or something or was it just the case they did not protect the name?

[Craig krup]

16 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

Interesting so what would happen in that sense. Jacuzzi I'm assuming began as a brand name but the name can then be pulled out of ones IP if it should explode and say get refermented in a dictionary or something or was it just the case they did not protect the name?

Folk just start using it, and then you can't stop them buying a whirlpool and saying, "We've got a Jacuzzi". Any new product provided by a company with a brand name - vacuum cleaning - will probably mean that the brand name will be used as a shorthand for all the later companies. Pepsi and Coke spend a fortune making sure that when someone says, "Get me a Coke" you know that they don't mean "Get me any cola". 

 

Warren Buffett made much of dough by recognizing that brands provide defensible "moats". You can defend your advantage and make super-normal profits in the long run. Are Gillette and Coke really significantly better: enough to make the price difference worth paying? But humans love to brand themselves by buying brands. "I'm a Coke drinker. I'm a BMW driver. I wear Levis".