Do these surge protectors work?

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, thomas557 said:

EDIT : I should also add, there is a 100 A Mitsubishi breaker at the entrance of the powerline to the property

And suddenly all is well.

 

Forget everything about needing extra breakers

 

 

[Beats56]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Incorrect!

 

The whole point of MOVs is the grab large, lightning induced surges.

 

Nothing is going to save you from a direct hit on the supply lines, maybe not even pulling the plugs.

 

Not incorrect..how does a surge protect from over 1000 volts... no way. I know after a lighting strike that took out mutiple appliances.

Pulling the plugs and you are safe from losing the appliances.

[Crossy]

Just now, Beats56 said:

Not incorrect..how does a surge protect from over 1000 volts... no way. I know after a lighting strike that took out mutiple appliances.

Pulling the plugs and you are safe from losing the appliances.

OK, if you say so. Do you unplug your aircon?

 

You may wish to read up on how Metal Oxide Varistors work.

 

[Crossy]

2 hours ago, tomas557 said:

EDIT : I should also add, there is a 100 A Mitsubishi breaker at the entrance of the powerline to the property

 

Typical, I missed the edit, this of course is the required over current protection. Forget everything about needing additional breakers

 

Now, where were we on the surge arrestors?

[Beats56]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

OK, if you say so. Do you unplug your aircon?

 

You may wish to read up on how Metal Oxide Varistors work.

 

Ok leave ever thing plugged in. Let me know how that works when lighting strikes.

[Crossy]

18 minutes ago, Beats56 said:

Ok leave ever thing plugged in. Let me know how that works when lighting strikes.

Like I said, do you unplug your aircon, and sit in the dark?

 

Thanks for your wisdom, we will continue watching TV and using mobiles (but not whilst on charge).

 

[bankruatsteve]

MOV will protect from surges coming down the wires as a result of lighting.  They will not protect from a near or direct lighting strike.  A direct strike will ionize the air and take out anything with sensitive electronics whether plugged in or not.  Those of us who are unfortunate to experience can attest to that.  NOTHING protects from a near/direct lighting strike.

[tomas557]

33 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

MOV will protect from surges coming down the wires as a result of lighting.  They will not protect from a near or direct lighting strike.  A direct strike will ionize the air and take out anything with sensitive electronics whether plugged in or not.  Those of us who are unfortunate to experience can attest to that.  NOTHING protects from a near/direct lighting strike.

 I remember getting a lightning strike a few years ago, and it was a major strike on the high voltage, because the tv repair shops in Pattaya had a field day.

 

My RCD's tripped, and nothing was damaged inside the house however many appliances were active at the time, but the gate motor which get it's power from the 100A breaker outside was smoked.

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

19 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

 I remember getting a lightning strike a few years ago, and it was a major strike on the high voltage, because the tv repair shops in Pattaya had a field day.

 

My RCD's tripped, and nothing was damaged inside the house however many appliances were active at the time, but the gate motor which get it's power from the 100A breaker outside was smoked.

 

 

I don't mean to say that everything and anything WILL be damaged by near/direct lighting - just that there is nothing that will protect for that.  Breakers and RCD will not normally trip on lightning surge - well except there is nothing "normal" with lightning.

[tomas557]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

And suddenly all is well.

 

Forget everything about needing extra breakers

 

 

 So I can just order the surge protectors and be done with it?

 

However there currently are P only installed, you suggested that the P+N should be used.

 

Is there a big advantage of using those over the version I have now, because it would involve rearranging the MCB's in the lower box.

 

Another thing I'm thinking about is that you suggest the arrestor is installed next to the RCD, but in case of P+N, that would give me some difficulties with the bus-bar, isn't it?

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, Pilotman said:

you all may as well  be writing in Klingon  for all I understand what you are on about.. 

Then for your own sake and that of your family....don't play with electrics.

[r136dg]

If you're jammed up for room in the DB's this may be an option for ya. Be advised I'm not an electrician & besides very basic knowledge I only know what the masters here have shared with me. Even than, I may still have this wrong.

What's your 100 amp Mitsubishi main breaker in front set up like? I put a box with a main breaker on a pole between the meter & our garage, that's where I put my SPD. Both live & neutral individually wired to their own ground rods at the base of the pole driven down 45 degrees opposite of each-other (overkill).

I put a second line of defense after the main breaker in my 1st distribution box (which is where the MEN connection is) also, but haven't gotten around to mov's at any wall outlets yet.

Again, if you consider something like this please verify this aint crazy talk. I'm a DIYer;-)

[tomas557]

I have a similar box, with a similar looking Mitsu breaker, mounted at the inside of my perimeter wall.

 

It was installed by the people who installed my transformer, and the box uses the same ground as the transformer I guess, but I haven't checked actually where the ground wire goes. The groundwire is 10mm.

 

There are no surge protectors in there. Might have a look as that would indeed be a solution, but I doubt I have much space left as have mounted other things in there already.

 

All those wires to the left and right looks a bit complicated to me.

 

So maybe Crossy can advice. If I would put a P+N in that box, and just connect to the 2 bottom connectors of the breaker ( or maybe even better to the top connectors since that is incoming line ???) and then pull a groundwire from the arrestor to the same ground as my transformer, would that be fine?

 

What size ground wire would I need.

 

Google tells me 10mm grounding wire for a 100A service, is that correct?

 

What size would the wires from the arrestor to the breaker need to be?

 

 

[Crossy]

If you have room in with the 100A breaker slip a nice meaty P+N in there. Use 10mm² wire. Keep everything as short as reasonably possible, it's all about minimising the path to ground for the surge.

 

If you fit them in the distribution boxes (there would be useful additional protection anyway) you could shuffle all the breakers along to the right and fit them to the left of the RCDs.

 

Note that the bigger in terms of capability (kA) the higher the clamp voltage tends to be. So our 100kA beasties on the incoming supply take the bite out of the surge, then the 20kA ones in the distribution box chop it even further. Plug-in (or in our case slipped behind the outlet) 10kA babies finish off the dregs. You can never have too much lightning protection.

 

And even with that lot, we lost our Samsung inverter washing machine to a surge (there's a whole thread on that subject).

[Crossy]

I see from your later posts that you have your own transformer. Please can you verify that the neutral is grounded at (or very near) the transformer.

 

If it is solidly grounded you could use P only arrestors (but see below).

 

Is there any link between N and E in the box with the 100A? (MEN link)

 

What sort of distances are involved transformer to 100A breaker and 100A breaker to the house?

[carlyai]

Just been following the posts and thought I'd better check my lightning protection.
Only 2 green lights, one blown. [emoji21]

They were hellishly expensive so will try and source a couple from a different supplyer.


Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[tomas557]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

I see from your later posts that you have your own transformer. Please can you verify that the neutral is grounded at (or very near) the transformer.

 

If it is solidly grounded you could use P only arrestors (but see below).

 

Is there any link between N and E in the box with the 100A? (MEN link)

 

What sort of distances are involved transformer to 100A breaker and 100A breaker to the house?

 

How do I check that the neutral is grounded? I presume you mean the neutral from the transformer, because in the breaker box there is nothing more  than 2 incoming wires and 2 outgoing. The box itself is grounded with a 10mm grounding cable that leads to the pole and from there goes into the ground.

 

It is not directly connected to the steel cable that comes down from the pole.

 

Distance between 100A breaker box and transformer pole is about 1.5 meter.

 

100A breaker box to the house involved about 25 meter NYY cable if I recall correctly and is underground.

 

Not sure about the thickness but think 32 sq.mm. Would that be the right figure?

 

In the DB is no 100A breaker, but there are 2 x 63A and 1x 40A RCD's

[Crossy]

OK, to check the transformer neutral use a Mk1 eyeball, look for a grounding connection.

 

With only 25m to the boxes in the house (and it's underground) I reckon you're still good with P only arrestors inside. You could add a N-E (MEN) link before the RCDs (on the incoming black wire) if you wish.

 

If there's room I would put a BIG P only arrestor in with the 100A.

[tomas557]

12 minutes ago, Crossy said:

OK, to check the transformer neutral use a Mk1 eyeball, look for a grounding connection.

 

With only 25m to the boxes in the house (and it's underground) I reckon you're still good with P only arrestors inside. You could add a N-E (MEN) link before the RCDs (on the incoming black wire) if you wish.

 

If there's room I would put a BIG P only arrestor in with the 100A.

Had to look up what a MK1 Eyball was. Good one.

 

Yes I think it is grounded, as in the picture are the 2 cables coming down from the transformer, and one of them is connected to the steel cable going into the ground.

 

Do I put P arrestor at incoming RCD only, or on all 3 RCD's in the DB?

 

What size do you consider BIG for the 100A breaker?

 

How do I create N-E link, and is this needed if the transformer neutral is properly earthed?

 

 

 

[tomas557]

If I put the BIG P in the 100A breaker box, are the arrestors in the DB still needed?

 

Can I use the existing ground wire from the breaker box housing for the P arrestor?

[Crossy]

Yes and Yes.

 

We have a Tomzn 100kA P+N on the incoming supply before my over/under trip (could have used P only but were out of stock).

Then Tomzn 30kA P only on our two breaker boards.

Finally some no-name 10kA Little-Blue-Chaps on the back of outlets supplying technology (equivalent to plug-in units).

 

If your boards are close together just put a single arrestor on the incoming supply.

 

It is important to keep the neutral as close as possible to ground potential, adding a link N-E at your incoming supply helps with that. It's called MEN (Multiple-Earthed-Neutral) and is supposed to be used for all installations here. Just run a length of 10mm² from the incoming neutral (before the RCD) to your earth bar.

 

[tomas557]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yes and Yes.

 

We have a Tomzn 100kA P+N on the incoming supply before my over/under trip (could have used P only but were out of stock).

Then Tomzn 30kA P only on our two breaker boards.

Finally some no-name 10kA Little-Blue-Chaps on the back of outlets supplying technology (equivalent to plug-in units).

 

If your boards are close together just put a single arrestor on the incoming supply.

 

It is important to keep the neutral as close as possible to ground potential, adding a link N-E at your incoming supply helps with that. It's called MEN (Multiple-Earthed-Neutral) and is supposed to be used for all installations here. Just run a length of 10mm² from the incoming neutral (before the RCD) to your earth bar.

 

 

To avoid confusion, I think your 2 yes were to the question in my last post, and you probably overlooked the post  right before that.

 

29 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

If I put the BIG P in the 100A breaker box, are the arrestors in the DB still needed?

 

Can I use the existing ground wire from the breaker box housing for the P arrestor?

 

Correct?

 

My breaker board is Haco HD-S348, so it is actually 1 big breaker board with 3 sections on top of each other.

 

In the incoming RCD there is already the incoming 32 sq.mm wire and a 10mm wire to the next RCD inserted, so not sure if it will be possible to insert another 10mm wire.

 

Could I run the MEN at the outgoing connection of the 100A breaker instead?

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, tomas557 said:

If I put the BIG P in the 100A breaker box, are the arrestors in the DB still needed?

 

Can I use the existing ground wire from the breaker box housing for the P arrestor?

 

Yes and Yes. It's important to understand that lightning suppression is a staged process, with each stage nipping a bit off the surge. The smaller MOVs react faster and have lower clamp voltages than the big units which can dissipate the most power.

 

[Crossy]

45 minutes ago, tomas557 said:

Could I run the MEN at the outgoing connection of the 100A breaker instead?

Not really worth it as it's already very close to the transformer ground. No reason why you shouldn't take it from one of the points in the board which is directly connected to the incoming neutral though.

[tomas557]

Just now, Crossy said:

Not really worth it as it's already very close to the transformer ground. No reason why you shouldn't take it from one of the points in the board which is directly connected to the incoming neutral though.

 

So it is sufficient to take it at  the second RCD?

[Crossy]

Just now, tomas557 said:

So it is sufficient to take it at  the second RCD?

Provided that is directly connected to the incoming N then yes, that will be fine.

[tomas557]

Just now, Crossy said:

Provided that is directly connected to the incoming N then yes, that will be fine.

 

Thanks again,. we're almost there, and yes the second RCD get its feeds from the RCD  with the incoming power directly.

 

I will place a single  30Kva P arrestor in the DB nect to the incoming RCD and see if I can fit a 100Kva P arrestor in the 100A breaker box. I understand that for the latter I can use 10mm wire .

 

[Crossy]

Yup 10mm² will do the trick.

 

[tomas557]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yup 10mm² will do the trick.

 

Seems 100Ka is impossible to find.

 

The biggest can find is 60Ka Ln and 100Ka maximum discharge.

 

Is that what you had in mind?

Edited August 17, 2017 by tomas557

[Crossy]

I'll have to check ours when I get home, but I suspect you're correct. They were the biggest ones the man had in the shop

 

You can parallel them if you need more oomph