Seventh Australian senator referred to High Court as citizenship crisis deepens

[rooster59]

Seventh Australian senator referred to High Court as citizenship crisis deepens

By Joseph Hinchliffe

 

Nick Xenophon in the South Australian capital of Adelaide, Australia, July 2, 2016. REUTERS/Matt Siegel

 

MELBOURNE (Reuters) - A crisis engulfing Australia's parliament has widened after a key independent senator became the seventh parliamentarian referred to the High Court to determine if his dual citizenship makes him ineligible to sit in parliament.

 

Senator Nick Xenophon's announcement on Saturday that he holds dual British citizenship comes as the future of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's government hangs in the balance, with question marks surrounding the eligibility of key members of his government and crossbenchers threatening supply should it be stripped of its one-seat majority.

 

That majority was placed in jeopardy earlier this week after Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce said he may be ineligible for parliament due to New Zealand citizenship by descent.

 

His father was born in New Zealand. Joyce has since relinquished New Zealand citizenship, but is awaiting the High Court ruling, along with several other politicians who believe they may have dual citizenship.

 

The citizenship crisis, based on a 116-year-old law which demands an elected lawmaker only have Australian citizenship, has rocked the Australian parliament, ensnaring three government members, three Green party MPs and Xenophon.

 

Xenophon said on Saturday he had received advice overnight from the UK Home Office that, due to a "rare peculiarity", they considered him a British overseas citizen.

 

The senator, who was born in Adelaide, Australia, said his father, Theodoros Xenophou, was born in Cyprus and left there in 1951. Cyprus remained a British colony until 1960 when it gained independence.

 

"The great irony here is that my father left Cyprus in order to escape British colonial rule," the senator said.

 

Xenophon had renounced Greek citizenship, which he received from his mother, but had not been aware he held possible British citizenship.

 

On Friday a member of Xenophon's eponymous party in the lower house of parliament, Rebekha Sharkie, became the latest crossbencher to withdraw her support for the government on matters of confidence and supply, telling Fairfax Media the prime minister was showing "disrespect to the Australian community" by not standing down the ministers referred to the High Court from their cabinet positions.

 

While the government does not currently need the support of crossbenchers in the lower house to hold office, should the court rule Deputy Prime Minister Joyce ineligible, it could only survive with the support of at least one non-government MP.

 

Only one lower house crossbencher has not withdrawn their support.

 

Business leaders in the country have warned the dual citizenship chaos risks damaging the country's standing among foreign investors.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-08-19

[Baerboxer]

Are these senators a) too stupid to know they have dual citizenship? and/or   ignorant of the laws of their own country, or c) just think that as a politician they are above the law?

[mfd101]

28 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Are these senators a) too stupid to know they have dual citizenship? and/or   ignorant of the laws of their own country, or c) just think that as a politician they are above the law?

Mostly none of the above.

 

They have been trapped by antiquated or ridiculous provisions of OTHER countries' laws that, for accidental reasons [eg where Dad or Mum was born 80 years ago] turn out - to everyone's astonishment, including their own - to apply to them. For example: the deputy PM was born & raised in Oz, but because his Dad was born in NZ, NZ law [NOT Oz law] deems the Deputy PM of Oz to be a Kiwi. Does that make sense? No. And certainly not in a country where some 30% of the population was born overseas.

 

It will be the High Court that has to decide what to make of this and other similar situations. Will be interesting to watch. But to say or imply in the meantime that the people involved are fools or liers seems unreasonable in the circumstances.

Edited August 19, 2017 by mfd101

[halloween]

I was wondering when the Greek descendants would appear in this little lot. IIRC  Greek citizenship was (is?) granted automatically to children of any Greek citizen, with the result that Melbourne had more Greek citizens than any other city except Athens.

Young Oz Greeks had to be careful about returning to Greece as they could be conscripted.

[tryasimight]

It will be interesting to see Doug Cameron's pedigree. He has claimed he was always  eligible.....for those who can understand what he is saying.

 

Old school pommy union rep,  then union boss of the AMWU in Oz and now dictating policy in Oz,

 

What has  that  country come to?

 

The senate needs a big reform or abolishment.....more important than a constitutional vote on gay marriage IMHO (which will never happen).

[anon4546543]

The question is. What are all the security agencies doing other than not vetting our state and federal politicians?

 

[Richard W]

4 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

The question is. What are all the security agencies doing other than not vetting our state and federal politicians?

 

They should be more interested in where there loyalties lie.  The US has a more useful approach to foreign nationalities when it comes to its own citizens.  They consider the passports held, rather than the nationalities held.  However, for ITAR, they seem just to consider nationalities, which could cause problems, because for the normal vetting for SECRET, the UK does not seem to investigate nationalities, but rather loyalties.

[Richard W]

11 hours ago, mfd101 said:

They have been trapped by antiquated or ridiculous provisions of OTHER countries' laws that, for accidental reasons [eg where Dad or Mum was born 80 years ago] turn out - to everyone's astonishment, including their own - to apply to them. For example: the deputy PM was born & raised in Oz, but because his Dad was born in NZ, NZ law [NOT Oz law] deems the Deputy PM of Oz to be a Kiwi. Does that make sense? No.

Your approach requires a cheap means for parents to preserve their children's nationalities.  For example, it makes perfect sense  for Abhisit Vejjajiva and Rama IX to have been Thai from birth, even though, like the British Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, they also automatically acquired the citizenship of the  country they were born in.  Britain currently charges roughly a grand a time for acquiring British citizenship, except in cases where acquisition would be automatic if the person were born nowadays.

[anon4546543]

24 minutes ago, Richard W said:

They should be more interested in where there loyalties lie.  The US has a more useful approach to foreign nationalities when it comes to its own citizens.  They consider the passports held, rather than the nationalities held.  However, for ITAR, they seem just to consider nationalities, which could cause problems, because for the normal vetting for SECRET, the UK does not seem to investigate nationalities, but rather loyalties.

Yeah, you lost me. someone with duel citizenship has duel loyalties.

I think all persons in US politics must be born in US and a citizen.

Does ITAR stand for Independent Taoists and Arabian Republicans?

Of course you then invoke "Secret". You must be wayyy up there in the security fraternity.

Just have one passport to represent your country, if that is indeed what you are doing.

[Scott]

Only the President of the US needs to be a native-born US citizen.   The remainder can have dual nationality and be born pretty much anywhere:

 

To serve as a U.S. representative, you must be at least 25 years of age, a citizen of the United States for at least seven years and an inhabitant of the state for which you are elected to represent. You may be a natural-born or naturalized citizen.

[anon4546543]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

Only the President of the US needs to be a native-born US citizen.   The remainder can have dual nationality and be born pretty much anywhere:

 

To serve as a U.S. representative, you must be at least 25 years of age, a citizen of the United States for at least seven years and an inhabitant of the state for which you are elected to represent. You may be a natural-born or naturalized citizen.

When in the Australian army, a US Ranger explained to me why US  laws were superior to Australia. You need to renounce previous nationality he said.

If he was wrong, put it down to another US military mistake. He was a Major and I, a new Sergeant trusted him. And believed him.

Most Aussies have trusted the US military, only to be screwed in needless wars and death. 

[Scott]

He was wrong.   When you become a US citizen you swear to allegiance (of sorts) to the US.   It does not mean you have to denounce any other country or nationality.  

 

Even foreigners an join the US military.   I assume if they were transgender they might have a problem now, though.  

[simple1]

33 minutes ago, Scott said:

He was wrong.   When you become a US citizen you swear to allegiance (of sorts) to the US.   It does not mean you have to denounce any other country or nationality.  

 

Even foreigners an join the US military.   I assume if they were transgender they might have a problem now, though.  

Yep, e.g. Australians & UK nationals have joined the US military. When I was living in Oz in the late 60s as a UK citizen, lived in Oz for more than 6 months and over 18, I was subject to call up and not permitted to depart Oz until the process was completed.

Edited August 19, 2017 by simple1

[Yme]

Any Australian politician found to have dual citizenship should be banned from politics for five years and be ordered to return the money they received while holding an office they were not entitled to hold. If they have such scant regard for the laws of the country they see them self as being fit to rule, one can only wonder at what regard they have for laws while in office.

 

 

[halloween]

9 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

The question is. What are all the security agencies doing other than not vetting our state and federal politicians?

 

Watching bloody muslims.

[Nemises]

Any Thai Visa Agent could fix their problems


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[anon4546543]

8 minutes ago, Gregster said:

Any Thai Visa Agent could fix their problems


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

lol

[VocalNeal]

5 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

You need to renounce previous nationality he said.

Problem being that one cannot truly renounce British Citizenship

.

Born There? Your British. Sure you can go through the motions and burn passport /flags etc. but if you ever go back there they will say never mind son welcome home.

 

I would think in Xenophon's case it means he is entitled to UK citizenship, if he applied, but is not currently British by accident of birth.

Edited August 20, 2017 by VocalNeal

[anon4546543]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

Yep, e.g. Australians & UK nationals have joined the US military. When I was living in Oz in the late 60s as a UK citizen, lived in Oz for more than 6 months and over 18, I was subject to call up and not permitted to depart Oz until the process was completed.

I doubt that is true. You are the first person to mention this and I was around when UK citizens had to

apply to join the military in the 60's. In fact the more I recall, the more ludicrous your claims are. I knew

so many UK citizens that fought in Vietnam, many were begging to join, the Aus army did not need

 non citizen pommy layabouts to conscript. I served with former paras, Black Watch, Household Guards

and more in the Aus Army. They all volunteered. Show me evidence of one UK citizen conscripted

into the Aus army just because he happened to be visiting.

I suppose all Canadian, Indian, Rhodesian (as it was then) and so on were conscripted as well.

Glad to see some evidence 

[anon4546543]

27 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Problem being that one cannot truly renounce British Citizenship

.

Born There? Your British. Sure you can go through the motions and burn passport /flags etc. but if you ever go back there they will say never mind son welcome home.

 

I would think in Xenophon's case it means he is entitled to UK citizenship, if he applied, but is not currently British by accident of birth.

I am lead to believe that if you go through a formal process to renounce UK citizenship, via migration authorities, thy will be done. Talk to the poms that lost their UK pension..

[4MyEgo]

19 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

Are these senators a) too stupid to know they have dual citizenship? and/or   ignorant of the laws of their own country, or c) just think that as a politician they are above the law?

C

[4MyEgo]

23 hours ago, rooster59 said:

The citizenship crisis, based on a 116-year-old law which demands an elected lawmaker only have Australian citizenship, has rocked the Australian parliament, ensnaring three government members, three Green party MPs and Xenophon.

I think this 116 year old law is what the country needs, i.e. a chance to clean up these clowns, the lot of them, make them all pay back what they were paid during their years in office and undo all the singed and passed legislative changes while they were in office, then go after all the retired ones and do the same, maybe by the undoing of a lot of the legislation, they might just find the one that affects Xpats that have to return for 2 years to get their pension....lol.

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander says this Australian Citizen who is deemed a foreign resident under Australian Law. 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

I doubt that is true. You are the first person to mention this and I was around when UK citizens had to apply to join the military in the 60's. In fact the more I recall, the more ludicrous your claims are. I knew so many UK citizens that fought in Vietnam, many were begging to join, the Aus army did not need  non citizen pommy layabouts to conscript. I served with former paras, Black Watch, Household Guards

and more in the Aus Army. They all volunteered. Show me evidence of one UK citizen conscripted into the Aus army just because he happened to be visiting.

I suppose all Canadian, Indian, Rhodesian (as it was then) and so on were conscripted as well.

Glad to see some evidence 

Conscription in Australia for the Vietnam War was from 1965 - 1972. You can be as rude as you wish, but doesn't change the facts of my experience nor the law for migrants in 1968 when I was a non Australian national. I wasn't called up, nor did I wish to be in that war, though it ridiculous for Australia to be involved, though an English friend of mine was called up. I do recall being physically attacked by two Australians in army uniform at Manly, whilst on leave from the bush, when they heard my English accent, they were cowards. I have met ex military Australians who served overseas who never boasted, as you do, one in particular became a close friend, plus I have worked for an ex member of the Black Watch and UK SAS, again they never bragged.

 

BTW at the time of going though the conscription process, I was working in remote location oil exploration, a tough job, not a 'pommy layabout'.

Edited August 20, 2017 by simple1

[Richard W]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

I would think in Xenophon's case it means he is entitled to UK citizenship, if he applied, but is not currently British by accident of birth.

No, it means that he is a British Overseas citizen, and thus entitled to British consular protection.  He has no right to British citizenship.

[Richard W]

9 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Yeah, you lost me. someone with duel citizenship has duel loyalties.

I think all persons in US politics must be born in US and a citizen.

Does ITAR stand for Independent Taoists and Arabian Republicans?

Of course you then invoke "Secret". You must be wayyy up there in the security fraternity.

Just have one passport to represent your country, if that is indeed what you are doing.

Just google ITAR.  It means "International Traffic in Arms Regulations".

 

If I understand aright, the Australian prohibition is on citizens of "foreign powers" being in Parliament.  Some weird judge-made law suddenly made 'foreign' = 'non-Australian', whereas formerly 'foreign' = 'alien'.  Until the Canadians changed the system just after the World War II, the British Commonwealth had a common citizenship.  To this day, Australians are not 'foreign'  or 'alien' in the UK, though the main manifestations in the UK are now the ability to vote, liability to jury service, and not being automatically excluded from the civil service.

 

Do these dual national politicians have more than one passport?

[simple1]

18 minutes ago, Richard W said:

No, it means that he is a British Overseas citizen, and thus entitled to British consular protection.  He has no right to British citizenship.

Does this not only apply if born after 1982? i.e. those born with a British Overseas Territory parent between 1949 - 1982 would have UK citizenship?

Edited August 20, 2017 by simple1

[Richard W]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Does this not only apply if born after 1982? i.e. those born in a British Overseas Territory between 1949 - 1982 would have UK citizenship?

On 1st January 1983, citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC), became British citizens, British dependent territories citizens (now known as 'British overseas territories citizens'), or British overseas citizens.

[ballpoint]

4 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

I doubt that is true. You are the first person to mention this and I was around when UK citizens had to

apply to join the military in the 60's. In fact the more I recall, the more ludicrous your claims are. I knew

so many UK citizens that fought in Vietnam, many were begging to join, the Aus army did not need

 non citizen pommy layabouts to conscript. I served with former paras, Black Watch, Household Guards

and more in the Aus Army. They all volunteered. Show me evidence of one UK citizen conscripted

into the Aus army just because he happened to be visiting.

I suppose all Canadian, Indian, Rhodesian (as it was then) and so on were conscripted as well.

Glad to see some evidence 

"Non-naturalised immigrants living in Australia who were not from the United Kingdom were not required to register when the national service scheme was introduced (in 1964), in keeping with Regular Army regulations which did not allow non-British immigrants to enlist unless they intended to be naturalised...

 

...Cabinet endorsed the proposal that non-British subjects 'ordinarily resident' in Australia were liable for national service. The decision, made on 4 April 1966, was not publicly announced until 10 August that year, giving the Government four months to consult with relevant foreign governments. The decision came into force in January 1967...

 

...Non-British subjects (but not British ones) were permitted to leave Australia rather than be called up... 

 

... If a male visitor to Australia were twenty years of age and in Australia for more than eleven months after 1 January 1967, he had to prove that he was not 'ordinarily resident' in Australia and establish temporary visitor status before being exempted from national service"

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/viet_app

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, ballpoint said:

"Non-naturalised immigrants living in Australia who were not from the United Kingdom were not required to register when the national service scheme was introduced (in 1964), in keeping with Regular Army regulations which did not allow non-British immigrants to enlist unless they intended to be naturalised...

 

...Cabinet endorsed the proposal that non-British subjects 'ordinarily resident' in Australia were liable for national service. The decision, made on 4 April 1966, was not publicly announced until 10 August that year, giving the Government four months to consult with relevant foreign governments. The decision came into force in January 1967...

 

...Non-British subjects (but not British ones) were permitted to leave Australia rather than be called up... 

 

... If a male visitor to Australia were twenty years of age and in Australia for more than eleven months after 1 January 1967, he had to prove that he was not 'ordinarily resident' in Australia and establish temporary visitor status before being exempted from national service"

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/viet_app

 

Thanks. Obviously some of my recollections were incorrect i.e. aged 20, not 18 and not six months residency in Oz, but eleven. 

[tonbridgebrit]

This is getting ridiculous. Xenephone is an Australian who is also a bit British. They should just simply leave him alone, and let him get on with his job.

The law on dual nationality has been put there to prevent Australians with passports from certain countries (like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Lebanon, China, etc) being politicians. Why not just say this, and get this media story over and done with ?