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Divisions bubble up as Brexit talks resume

By Gabriela Baczynska

 

FILE PHOTO: A worker arranges flags at the EU headquarters as Britain and the EU launch Brexit talks in Brussels, June 19, 2017. REUTERS/Francois Lenoir/File Photo

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Divisions between Britain and the EU over mapping out their divorce will be laid bare in Brussels next week when the two sides meet for another round of negotiations whose timetable already looks tight.

 

London is keen to focus on what happens after Brexit but the bloc says more ground must first be covered on settling the terms of the departure, including the bill, leaving dozens of officials to pick their way through a diplomatic minefield from Monday to Thursday.

 

The 27 remaining EU states are also insisting on seeing progress on safeguarding expatriate rights and sorting out the future Irish border before they can declare the "sufficient progress" that would allow them to broach talks about Britain's future relationship with the EU.

 

Time is short in the negotiations, which started in June and should conclude before the expected Brexit date in late March 2019. Otherwise Britain risks leaving the EU with little clarity over what happens next.

 

"There are no major expectations as regards next week's round. The documents published by Britain (this week) refer more to the future relationship than the things to settle in the first place," an EU diplomat said.

 

"Many matters, including the financial aspect most importantly, remain unclear from the British side. So the EU expects no big progress, which makes any 'significant progress' less likely in October."

 

Talks have been slowed by an ill-judged snap election called by Prime Minister Theresa May that weakened her governing Conservative Party and exposed rifts among her ministers over what sort of Brexit they would seek.

 

Several position papers released this week have made clear London will often look to replicate as closely as possible its existing arrangements as an EU member after it leaves.

 

But the EU has dug in its heels, saying it wants to get much more on the three priority areas before anything else.

 

"We won't be talking about the future during this round, nothing about customs arrangements or some such," an EU official said. "We need detail, the withdrawal deal ...has to be a legal text."

 

One key point of contention is London's desire, reaffirmed this week, to break free from the jurisdiction of the EU's top court, the European Court of Justice (ECJ).

 

For the EU ensuring the ECJ can police the withdrawal agreement and continue to have the final say in disputes involving EU citizens residing in Britain - and vice versa - is essential.

 

The bloc largely brushed what May called an initial "generous offer" on citizens' rights, saying much more detailed legal assurances were necessary.

 

While there is some common ground, sources on both sides say more technical work is needed. For a graphic, please see: http://tmsnrt.rs/2tws2uK

 

TIME IS MONEY

 

But the issue of money is seen by both sides as the hardest nut to crack for now.

 

Concerning Britain's financial obligations towards the bloc, the EU has floated a divorce bill of around 60 billion euros ($71 billion), which London has said is far too high.

 

The bloc hopes to agree a formula with Britain for calculating the figure and sees that as a precondition to moving to any talks about post-Brexit arrangements.

 

Without an agreement on methodology, the EU has said the talks risk stalling.

 

But British negotiators have said they will go "line by line" through the EU's financial expectations and reiterate next week they see the EU's sum as excessive.

 

Though the EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has already warned time is running out, sources on both sides of the table do not anticipate major breakthroughs next week.

 

Some pieces of the puzzle should however start falling into place in more talks next month, they said.

 

Any clear arrangements around the future border between Britain and EU state Ireland will only come in the second phase of talks anyway, as they would largely depend on the nature of the future bilateral relationship, including on customs.

 

While opening "phase two" talks had initially been expected in October, Barnier has already signalled this is now less likely to happen.

 

London has said it was still confident the EU would move towards discussing future relations by October.

($1 = 0.8467 euros)

 

(Reporting by Gabriela Baczynska, Julia Fioretti, Robert-Jan Bartunek; Writing by Gabriela Baczynska; Editing by John Stonestreet)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-08-25

[terryw]

Reuters, a Remoaner supporting organisation needs to do some homework before trying to blame the British.

 

Firstly, the Treaty of Lisbon does not require any country leaving the EU to make a divorce payment. Any payment made by the UK will be only what we have previously agreed to pay, not what the EU thinks we should pay. The EU are worried that the UK will take this issue to International Arbitration where they know we will win.

 

Secondly, the Irish border is an EU problem. The UK and both Irish governments do not want a hard border. If they try to impose one against the wishes of the UK and Irish governments then the consequences are likely to be negative for Brussels.

 

Thirdly, anyone living in the UK has to be subject to UK law just as anyone living in the EU must comply with their laws. The EU are trying to do something that does not happen anywhere else in the World.

 

Finally, the Treaty of Lisbon states that the EU must deal fairly and positively with any country leaving the EU. Again the law is on the side of the UK.

 

Personally, I would hope that there is an amicable agreement with the EU, however past form suggests that to get 27 countries and numerous provinces/Lander to agree is unlikely.

Edited August 25, 2017 by terryw

[robertson468]

The Soft Border to Ireland is not a problem.  Suggest that Ireland has an ID Card System for their residents and by producing that, with their Passport - job done!  This is limp minded bureaurocrats making a mountain out of a mole hill.  I get the impression that the EU want to make the exit as diffcult and painful as possible because they are really upset at the reduction in funding.  Presumably the Eurocrats pay and pensions will be reduced as they have one Country less to administer?  That will be really popular!

[dunroaming]

14 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

I get the impression that the EU want to make the exit as diffcult and painful as possible

Yes of course they do and they made that plain from day one, in fact even before the referendum should it go that way.  They want to send a warning to other member countries that  leaving the EU comes at a cost and although there is room for some negotiations and concessions they will never be preferable to staying in.  The Brexiteers love pointing out that leaving the EU will hurt them so what do you expect?

 

If the UK had a realistic plan then maybe we could come out of this with limited damage but so far they haven't and they seem pretty clueless.  There are no surprises here, we were all warned that this would be result, time to swallow hard and brace ourselves! 

[bumpkin]

4 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Yes of course they do and they made that plain from day one, in fact even before the referendum should it go that way.  They want to send a warning to other member countries that  leaving the EU comes at a cost and although there is room for some negotiations and concessions they will never be preferable to staying in.  The Brexiteers love pointing out that leaving the EU will hurt them so what do you expect?

 

If the UK had a realistic plan then maybe we could come out of this with limited damage but so far they haven't and they seem pretty clueless.  There are no surprises here, we were all warned that this would be result, time to swallow hard and brace ourselves! 

The reality is no other state can afford to leave, bar very few.  The majority of states are so dependent on cash inflow from Brussels.  The English saying is "beggars can't be choosers".  

Having travelled widely in many EU countries,  it is really surprising how little is known by most people one meets,  about the workings  and (mis-) management of the EU.  These matters are seldom aired in their national Press or TV.

[Grouse]

There should be another vote 

 

No sane person sees any upside from Brexit. The ultimate fool's errand.

[hawker9000]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

There should be another vote 

 

No sane person sees any upside from Brexit. The ultimate fool's errand.

'Just love opinions like this.   "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is an idiot."  So enlightened.  So persuasive.

 

 

...SO arrogant and likely to simply strengthen the resolve of those you're poking in the eye, and antagonize any undecideds.  It's not a strategy that worked very well for dems in the US last year.

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

'Just love opinions like this.   "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is an idiot."  So enlightened.  So persuasive.

 

 

...SO arrogant and likely to simply strengthen the resolve of those you're poking in the eye, and antagonize any undecideds.  It's not a strategy that worked very well for dems in the US last year.

However, I am correct!

[Saradoc1972]

12 hours ago, terryw said:

Thirdly, anyone living in the UK has to be subject to UK law just as anyone living in the EU must comply with their laws. The EU are trying to do something that does not happen anywhere else in the World.

Anyone living in Britain *is*, as a matter of fact, subject to British law. Rental contracts, driving licenses, owning firearms... anything not governed by EU law. Actually *including* anything governed by EU law, which is actually EU law made British law, some technicalities like "direct effectiveness" aside. And even after the "Great Repeal Bill", the UK will actually keep the majority of regulations it adopted under EU law for the foreseeable future. For example, abrogating the EU-regulated law regarding working times will not do, they need a law of their own for that then. Can then modify it as they see fit after Brexit, but I rather see a lot of things staying just the way they are. A lot of things people are fretting about are actually standardizations needed for easier trade, like the far-famed curvature of gherkins. Very useful and actually not concerning anyone of the general public, just great for cracking a joke.

 

They are negotiating the right of free movement between EU and British citizens, which touches on the regulation of immigration that was mostly the bee's knee of Brexit. It's also about the right of EU citizens to stay in Britain, maybe after many years of working there and having a family with children speaking English as their first language, and the other way round. Including numerous British pensioners in Spain, whom Britain might not like to come back in droves, and Spain might not want to see gone. Who btw are enjoying social services such as health insurance in Spain, something they might not be able to get into or afford otherwise.

 

And, oh yes, it does happen in other parts of the world. For example you have the same thing between the EU and Switzerland/Norway, and if that is not far away enough for you, there is also a Trans Tasman agreement in effect between NZ and OZ. And special arrangements between Canada and the US, though that agreement falls well short of the other ones.

[impulse]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

There should be another vote 

 

No sane person sees any upside from Brexit. The ultimate fool's errand.

 

While I agree that another vote is a good idea, it's because so much more is known today than was known when the first vote was taken.

 

Perfectly reasonable and sane people will disagree on a lot of issues.  And some of them will change their minds when new information becomes available.  Some won't.

 

[maewang99]

something ridiculously emotive needs to be dredged up.... so you can get Brexit done quietly and without delay.

your military "services" are not indiscriminate global baby killers.. not by a mile.... and your belief that you were made in an Image, one Image, of One God... is not widely believed enough... hmmm.....  

get more involved with the Korean thing, and tell Trump to hurry up and start a new war somewhere.

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by maewang99

[Moonlover]

16 hours ago, robertson468 said:

The Soft Border to Ireland is not a problem.  Suggest that Ireland has an ID Card System for their residents and by producing that, with their Passport - job done!  This is limp minded bureaurocrats making a mountain out of a mole hill.  I get the impression that the EU want to make the exit as diffcult and painful as possible because they are really upset at the reduction in funding.  Presumably the Eurocrats pay and pensions will be reduced as they have one Country less to administer?  That will be really popular!

Sorry robertson. Your simplistic approach is not a solution at all.

 

An open border between the two regions was a key element in the so called 'Good Friday Agreement', that brought an end to the troubles. Neither the republic nor the republicans in the north would have agreed to the settlement without it.

 

Common EU membership has, of course been very useful in enabling that solution to an age old problem and I do not envisage any change to the current situation to be acceptable to either community. Do not forget that a 'united Ireland' is still the ultimate goal of both Eire and the republicans in the north. And they both view an open border, completely open, as a key stepping stone in that direction.

 

The border between the two regions is far from being a 'mole hill' and I think that it will become more prominent as these negotiations continue.

 

 

[Khun Han]

The article hilights the intransigence of the EU. The UK has made considerable compromise on the status of EU citizens residing in the UK. The EU wants things all it's own way over this. The UK wants to sit down and itemise the brexit bill with the EU. The EU wants the UK to make a counter proposal without knowing the specifics of the EU demand: utterly bizarre and unreasonable.

 

On the subject of the Irish border, the article correctly ties in the issue with trade negotiations further down the line.

 

There is only one side being difficult in these negotiations and it ain't us Brits.

[dick dasterdly]

7 hours ago, impulse said:

 

While I agree that another vote is a good idea, it's because so much more is known today than was known when the first vote was taken.

 

Perfectly reasonable and sane people will disagree on a lot of issues.  And some of them will change their minds when new information becomes available.  Some won't.

 

I agree.

 

Another referendum following the final 'agreement' between the UK and EU is an imperative.

 

 Politicians sold the vast majority of Brit. voters 'down the drain' with their 'UK/EU agreement'?

 

Give the electorate a chance to voice their displeasure/pleasure at the result.  But the referendum has to happen after MPs vote on the issue - so constituents can see how their MPs voted on the 'final agreement'.

Edited August 26, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Richard W]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

The article hilights the intransigence of the EU. The UK has made considerable compromise on the status of EU citizens residing in the UK.

The major concession apparently made - lawful residence not required - was not asked for.  This actually looks like administrative convenience - the Home Office cannot handle the process of checking applications for documents certifying permanent residence (DCPR), and is currently doing what it can to stem demand.  Unfortunately, I can't in good conscience advise people that having the document before exit will not be necessary.  'Perfidious Albion' will remain in people's minds.

 

One thing that the UK has declared is that non-dangerous EU criminals will be expelled even if they have had the right of permanent residence.

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts and replies removed.  

 

Continued personal attacks against other members can result in a suspension.