Grace International School

[earlofwindermere]

Are these rumours or not? I'm hearing stories from many different people that the school is either shutting down, being forced out of World Club Land and/or facing some kind of major lawsuit. Does anyone know anything?

[p1p]

There are a lot of rumours and stories around and I can not put too much down for fear of litigious comeback. As far as I can understand the situation is as follows:

This, I fear, is a typical case of Caveat Emptor. Grace looks to have purchased the property without taking proficient legal advice.

The owners of houses and/or land in the World Club Estate had a legal claim to the property of the sports club prior to the purchase by Grace school. All land and house owners have/had lifetime memberships and the right to use the sports club premises at no charge. To the best of my knowledge, neither Grace nor the previous owners of the estate have addressed these rights.

To put it another way, the property was almost certainly sold in a sub-legal manner to Grace without taking any account of the absolute legal rights of property owners in the estate.

The houses and land at the World Club estate were sold at a considerable premium to the present owners because of the superb facilities offered free at the sports club. When Grace took over, these facilities were no longer available or were severely curtailed, causing a considerable loss in relative value of the properties in the estate.

In the intervening period since Grace took over the sports club, the management of the estate has been wrested from Grace (and the previous owner) and the newly formed management entity are now taking action against Grace and the previous owners to address their legal claims in full for the sports club property or a similar property, with equivalent facilities within the estate.

I live in World Club and this is a very brief precis of events to date and the contents of a Thai language letter delivered to my house a few days ago.

[Seneque]

We heard the school is supposed to make a final decision on its future by november 29.... this is a rather strange situation and many believe it should be solved smoothly, perhaps the school should reopen its 'sporting' facilities after school hours, that would ease the tension....

[cmsally]

I seem to remember that sports facilities used to be open after 3pm, but were then changed to be not accessible at any hour.

I always wondered what happened to the people who had yearly membership; we had one but by total coincidence it expired around the change. If I had bought a house there, I would certainly be a little peeved at not being able to use the accompanying facilities.

[p1p]

The facilities offered prior to Grace taking over were open from early am to late pm. They included a comprehensive gym, the largest pool in north Thailand, several squash and tennis courts, badminton, an archery range, fitness tracks, children's playground, etc. etc., not to mention a fairly good restaurant and bar, albeit with appalling service. After Grace took over, access to most of these facilities was severely curtailed or stopped altogether. Those who purchased land at a premium of some 5-8,000 Baht per Sq Wah above the equivalent cost in other local estates were left high and dry with massive losses in property values.

I fear the school reopening its premises after 3pm would be far too little and far too late and would smack of cynicism unacceptable to the members of the club who are looking for full reinstatement of the facilities they previously enjoyed and thereby restoration of their property values.

The situation is further complicated by the running costs of the estate. The original land purchasers paid a premium into a fund, which was intended to cover the costs in full of the estate management, cleaning, guards, electricity etc.. Since Grace took over the management (and subsequently), charges have been levied. Understandably residents have a little difficulty and it has engendered considerable bad feeling that they are being expected to pay again for a service for which they paid in full in advance.

I fear, as I said above, this is a case of Caveat Emptor. I am sure Grace would not be in the position it now finds itself if it had taken competent legal advice in the first place.

If some deal looks too good to be true, it almost certainly is just so.

[realthaideal]

So.... we're talking about the World Club Sports Facilities, right ? I'm thinking so. And if so, it then makes sense that they've just undertaken massive restructuring and cost cutting measures at my companion gym Body and Mind on the little Airport Road across from CNX Cargo. it's a great gym... quiet, small, not too crowded except peak hrs of 5-7 pm. But they've cut staff, eliminated hand soap in the bathrooms, water cups for drinking - paper soon to be replaced by washable cups I hear, which is good, a reduction of open hours on weekend mornings, and towels are now charged for. This all happened kind of suddenly in the last couple weeks. Assuming I'm not confused here n we are talking about the WOrld Club gyms, anybody know the details on who owns or manages them now.... it couldn't be Grace??!! Sounds too weird.

As much as you feel comfortable P1P, keep us posted on the gossip, this is a good juicy story.... very convoluted...and totally normal at the same time for Thld.

[p1p]

So.... we're talking about the World Club Sports Facilities, right ? I'm thinking so. And if so, it then makes sense that they've just undertaken massive restructuring and cost cutting measures at my companion gym Body and Mind on the little Airport Road across from CNX Cargo. it's a great gym... quiet, small, not too crowded except peak hrs of 5-7 pm. But they've cut staff, eliminated hand soap in the bathrooms, water cups for drinking - paper soon to be replaced by washable cups I hear, which is good, a reduction of open hours on weekend mornings, and towels are now charged for. This all happened kind of suddenly in the last couple weeks. Assuming I'm not confused here n we are talking about the WOrld Club gyms, anybody know the details on who owns or manages them now.... it couldn't be Grace??!! Sounds too weird.

As much as you feel comfortable P1P, keep us posted on the gossip, this is a good juicy story.... very convoluted...and totally normal at the same time for Thld.

Body & Mind is owned & managed by the original owners of World Club estate and Sports Club. They now have nothing to do with the original enterprise at World Club apart from being on the receiving end of litigation concerning their perceived less-than-competent or honest management there and probable fraudulent disposal of their interest.

Their cost-cutting measures may be in relation to that law suit.

[Flatouthruthefog]

So.... we're talking about the World Club Sports Facilities, right ? I'm thinking so. And if so, it then makes sense that they've just undertaken massive restructuring and cost cutting measures at my companion gym Body and Mind on the little Airport Road across from CNX Cargo. it's a great gym... quiet, small, not too crowded except peak hrs of 5-7 pm. But they've cut staff, eliminated hand soap in the bathrooms, water cups for drinking - paper soon to be replaced by washable cups I hear, which is good, a reduction of open hours on weekend mornings, and towels are now charged for. This all happened kind of suddenly in the last couple weeks. Assuming I'm not confused here n we are talking about the WOrld Club gyms, anybody know the details on who owns or manages them now.... it couldn't be Grace??!! Sounds too weird.

As much as you feel comfortable P1P, keep us posted on the gossip, this is a good juicy story.... very convoluted...and totally normal at the same time for Thld.

Body & Mind is owned & managed by the original owners of World Club estate and Sports Club. They now have nothing to do with the original enterprise at World Club apart from being on the receiving end of litigation concerning their perceived less-than-competent or honest management there and probable fraudulent disposal of their interest.

Their cost-cutting measures may be in relation to that law suit.

I know nothing of this sad situation except to say openly, p1p, many thanks for your helpfulness and, in keeping us informed, please do not risk getting pulled into any of this legal (?) mess.

[p1p]

Okay - a bit more news. I have just had a lengthy meeting with a person intimately involved with this case from the very beginning.

Grace School were advised shortly after they purchased the property that they were in violation of Thai law. Since that time they have been in denial and saying "God will sort out their problems." They have been repeatedly advised to look for ways to short circuit their legal problems by, for example, building a new sports centre for the residents of the estate, but they have adamantly refused to do so.

The, primarily Thai, residents of the estate have now had a stomach full of their attitude and I am advised nothing less than the complete return of the sports complex to the ownership of the estate will be acceptable. When that has been accomplished, I am further advised the estate management will be looking to Grace for payment of considerable damages in addition. An amount in the mid 9 figures has been mentioned.

I am advised the "Holier than Thou" attitude and arrogant intransigence of the management of Grace is to a great extent responsible for the current state of affairs. Senior Thai police and army generals do not appreciate being told that friends of their children must pay 200 Baht per head to swim in the pool, when farang non estate residents who attend the same church as Grace management get in free and can bring friends for 20 Baht.

The ill will so garnered can not be overcome with ease.

[Ulysses G.]

Senior Thai police and army generals do not appreciate being told that friends of their children must pay 200 Baht per head to swim in the pool, when farang non estate residents who attend the same church as Grace management get in free and can bring friends for 20 Baht.

I support the residents against the Church, but still, it's nice to let the Thais see what discriminatory pricing is like from the other side.

[slapout]

I agree with UG and I wonder where the orginal owners of the world club are? Is this another case of developers taking monies in advance for a service and facility,and selling it again? I know we need to get legal help to do any business in the LOS but this type of thing seems to have become a trend in the Thai housing market. Maybe the Generals and senior police can put a stop to this type of behavior by all parties concerned.

[Puwa]

Math isn't my best subject, but isn't "mid 9 figures" something like 500 million baht, or almost $15 million? That's a very large some of money.

[p1p]

Math isn't my best subject, but isn't "mid 9 figures" something like 500 million baht, or almost $15 million? That's a very large some of money.

The figure comes from something in excess of X00,000 Square Wah times X,000 Baht per Sq Wah.

[lannarebirth]

It's unfortunate about the acrimony that exists between Grace and the World Club villagers. I wasn't aware that their sporting facilities had been appropriated. I always assumed having an Intl School on the premises was a plus and might even cause higher property values.

[Bill97]

Quite an attitude on the part of Grace management. It is a school and that is what they are teaching? Oh well, kharma is included in Christianity too.

Wouldn't a "complete return of the sports complex" mean loss of a lot of space Grace is using for offices and /or classes?

Edited October 26, 2007 by Bill97

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Who would want to use a swimming pool owned by a school anyway? I used to work in Dara Academy and was allowed full use of their pool, but since they let about 3000 under 10s use it in a week it must be at least 10% pee!

[p1p]

Quite an attitude on the part of Grace management. It is a school and that is what they are teaching? Oh well, kharma is included in Christianity too.

Wouldn't a "complete return of the sports complex" mean loss of a lot of space Grace is using for offices and /or classes?

Grace management have been concerned only with what their god has told them to do. Many of their actions have been taken against eminent legal advice simply because god spoke to them and gave direct instructions.

Grace will likely be having to close, or at very least look for new property outside the World Club area.

[p1p]

It's unfortunate about the acrimony that exists between Grace and the World Club villagers. I wasn't aware that their sporting facilities had been appropriated. I always assumed having an Intl School on the premises was a plus and might even cause higher property values.

This was a fallacious assumption made and oft quoted by Grace management. People did pay extra for the use of high class sports facilities. The International School unfortunately took those away and gave nothing in exchange apart from ill feeling and bigotry. They were even unwilling to take most local children unless they were christians and were seen to worship on a regular basis. This is not a way to support the community.

Almost the only houses to have been sold in World Club since Grace took over have been at the lower end of the market and have gone to evangelicals with an interest in Grace. There are considerable numbers of properties in World Club on the market and unsalable because they are beyond the budget of the evangelicals and no Thai is willing to get involved in the current serious sh1tstorm here.

I have neighbours who are looking to sell their house. They were advised they should not expect more than 12 million Baht if they are desperate to sell soon. If the Grace situation is resolved and the school replaced by a sports club, they are told they should ask 25 Million.

[Seneque]

house for sale at 12 million with an international school... or 25 million with a sports club. Please give us a break. There is no serious housing market here in Chiangmai as everything is for sale at the most ridiculous prices (particularly when considering the poor construction design).

This school is open to local students but unfortunately for them they are not up to the level of English required ... it is true that a bit of 'christian belief' would help but that is not all. I know some (Buddhist) Thai families who have their kids there and are happy with the education received.

I think most of you are a bit harsh on the situation ... but I am more concerned about the 450+ kids who go there everyday than on a few house owners who wait for seven years to start complaining because they have been screewed by the owner of the Sports Club and blame it on the foreigner (typical behavior ...). Property in Thailand has a value ONLY when there is buyer ... otherwise it is a case of wishfull thinking ... blame your greed.

[Bill97]

p1p, Thank you very much for all the information. Very interesting, please let us know how it unfolds.

[Loaded]

Will the owners of Grace now believe this is God's work?

I feel strongly that God (he speaks to me even though I'm not American) is punishing them for all the missionaries sent to <deleted> up the animalistic beliefs of hill-tribe people.

A few less diners in Dukes.

God is telling you to go home.

[lannarebirth]

It's unfortunate about the acrimony that exists between Grace and the World Club villagers. I wasn't aware that their sporting facilities had been appropriated. I always assumed having an Intl School on the premises was a plus and might even cause higher property values.

This was a fallacious assumption made and oft quoted by Grace management. People did pay extra for the use of high class sports facilities. The International School unfortunately took those away and gave nothing in exchange apart from ill feeling and bigotry. They were even unwilling to take most local children unless they were christians and were seen to worship on a regular basis. This is not a way to support the community.

Almost the only houses to have been sold in World Club since Grace took over have been at the lower end of the market and have gone to evangelicals with an interest in Grace. There are considerable numbers of properties in World Club on the market and unsalable because they are beyond the budget of the evangelicals and no Thai is willing to get involved in the current serious sh1tstorm here.

I have neighbours who are looking to sell their house. They were advised they should not expect more than 12 million Baht if they are desperate to sell soon. If the Grace situation is resolved and the school replaced by a sports club, they are told they should ask 25 Million.

Hmmm, that seems a stretch to lay all that at the feet of Grace Academy. I've been many times through World Club and for a moo ban I'd place it at the lower end of the spectrum. First I don't like Moo bans, but if I did, I'd want to see some CCR's. World Club has some of the ugliest homes ever built in it and I don't think that's Grace's fault. People who buy in MooBans like a ceratin amount of conformity, and World Club is anything but that. Lot sizes are too varied, home designs are whatever anyone wants, home colors, . Those are the kind of things that make housing tracts less valuable, not more. Also World Club looks like it let the laborers of the time, decide for themselves how roads, building, streets should be finished. It has a very unprofessional (as in developers) feel about the place.

[p1p]

Hmmm, that seems a stretch to lay all that at the feet of Grace Academy. I've been many times through World Club and for a moo ban I'd place it at the lower end of the spectrum. First I don't like Moo bans, but if I did, I'd want to see some CCR's. World Club has some of the ugliest homes ever built in it and I don't think that's Grace's fault. People who buy in MooBans like a ceratin amount of conformity, and World Club is anything but that. Lot sizes are too varied, home designs are whatever anyone wants, home colors, . Those are the kind of things that make housing tracts less valuable, not more. Also World Club looks like it let the laborers of the time, decide for themselves how roads, building, streets should be finished. It has a very unprofessional (as in developers) feel about the place.

I am afraid that the vast amount of development has taken place under the control of the Directors of Grace, or a developing entity closely allied to or directly owned by them.

In 1997, when the economy crashed, there were, at a guess, well under ten buildings within the estate, (apart from the small "village" of mostly townhouses near the entrance.) Between that time and the purchase by Grace, essentially no further development took place due to the rocky economy. However, after Grace took over, they moved quickly to build upon the land they received with the purchase. Almost all development, apart from the aforementioned "village" took place under the watching eye and management of Grace's directors.

As to CCR's. There are, but they have been ignored by powers that be until the recent wresting of control by the estate residents. CCR's are now being vigorously applied to all new building work.

I fear though that your idea of a perfect moo bahn; serried ranks of perfectly conforming, identical little boxes, paper walls, twitching nets and squalling babes or screecher violinists in every second home are my idea of purgatory or worse. I am a firm believer in the soul lifting powers of individuality.

[lannarebirth]

Hmmm, that seems a stretch to lay all that at the feet of Grace Academy. I've been many times through World Club and for a moo ban I'd place it at the lower end of the spectrum. First I don't like Moo bans, but if I did, I'd want to see some CCR's. World Club has some of the ugliest homes ever built in it and I don't think that's Grace's fault. People who buy in MooBans like a ceratin amount of conformity, and World Club is anything but that. Lot sizes are too varied, home designs are whatever anyone wants, home colors, . Those are the kind of things that make housing tracts less valuable, not more. Also World Club looks like it let the laborers of the time, decide for themselves how roads, building, streets should be finished. It has a very unprofessional (as in developers) feel about the place.

I am afraid that the vast amount of development has taken place under the control of the Directors of Grace, or a developing entity closely allied to or directly owned by them.

In 1997, when the economy crashed, there were, at a guess, well under ten buildings within the estate, (apart from the small "village" of mostly townhouses near the entrance.) Between that time and the purchase by Grace, essentially no further development took place due to the rocky economy. However, after Grace took over, they moved quickly to build upon the land they received with the purchase. Almost all development, apart from the aforementioned "village" took place under the watching eye and management of Grace's directors.

As to CCR's. There are, but they have been ignored by powers that be until the recent wresting of control by the estate residents. CCR's are now being vigorously applied to all new building work.

I fear though that your idea of a perfect moo bahn; serried ranks of perfectly conforming, identical little boxes, paper walls, twitching nets and squalling babes or screecher violinists in every second home are my idea of purgatory or worse. I am a firm believer in the soul lifting powers of individuality.

Thank you for the clarification p1p. I was not here in 1997 and was unaware of the complete history of the devlopment. Really, I'm still not clear. Did Grace buy the entire World Club development, ex previously sold tracts? As for my perfect moo bahn. That would be any one I don't live in or near.

Edited October 27, 2007 by lannarebirth

[p1p]

Really, I'm still not clear. Did Grace buy the entire World Club development, ex previously sold tracts?

Yes, to the best of my belief they did.

[PeaceBlondie]

I've spent lots of time inside parts of World Club this year, and some of the building sizes must be over 600 square meters of living space, not including the various church buildings. Lots of empty lots, but also very many three story houses. Wide streets, reasonably quiet and well kept. But now that I know some of the problems, Wow!

I don't doubt that some of the lunatic fringe among the evangelical crowd would 'trust God to solve the problem' and bury their heads in denial. My ex wife got that way during our separation and divorce, saying we didn't need to list the empty house for sale because "God will sell the house." I replied, "But God doesn't have a Texas real estate license!!" I suspect that Jesus may not have a registered Thai attorney who's worth his tang mo.

[Seneque]

I've heard they lost their case and have to move .... any news to confirm this .... are they really going to move, do they have to build a new club house ?, they were expecting to make an announcement on nov 29 and nothing happened .... god's will

[p1p]

This is hearsay and I am unsure of its veracity, although the people who told me have every reason to know the facts of the case.

I am told that Grace are being refused a license to open a new school. If this is true, they may have to move out of Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

I wonder if God will destroy Chiang Mai with a magical lightning bolt?

[BlackArtemis]

I wonder if God will destroy Chiang Mai with a magical lightning bolt?

Nah he is letting Chiang Mai slowly kill itself with all of the pollution! (Not a haze derailment post!!!!)