Southern Thai

[seville]

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down.

[sabaijai]

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down. 

Southern Thai isn't a written language, so writing it out is pretty tricky. You could try transliterating to the Roman alphabet, but then you'd have all the problems associated with translits of Central Thai, eg, everyone has his own idea how the language should be transliterated.

The US Peace Corps published a Southern Thai dictionary years ago that wrote Southern Thai using the Thai alphabet with added diacritics - if you can get hold of it, that would probably be your best bet (assuming you read standard Thai that is).

I'm sure there are Thais who could teach you southern Thai, if you could find a qualified person. I doubt any TV.com member is fluent in Southern Thai (maybe I'm wrong about that though!).

The language itself is a blend of standard Thai spoken with different tones (example: The number 205 is spoken [F]sawng [L]rawy [H]haa instead of [R]sawng [H]rawy [F]haa) mixed with Yawi (an older Malay dialect) and Hokkien Chinese (for example ko-pee for coffee).

For audio samples of Southern Thai (as well as other Thai dialects) check out this web page:

Thai samples

[seville]

Interesting information.

I'm just looking for some quick phrases to kind of keep my ear out for. My friends help me out, but writing down really helps. Mai Dai Aan ru kian Pa Sa Thai.

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Southern Thai isn't a written language, so writing it out is pretty tricky. You could try transliterating to the Roman alphabet, but then you'd have all the problems associated with translits of Central Thai, eg, everyone has his own idea how the language should be transliterated.

The US Peace Corps published a Southern Thai dictionary years ago that wrote Southern Thai using the Thai alphabet with added diacritics - if you can get hold of it, that would probably be your best bet (assuming you read standard Thai that is).

I'm sure there are Thais who could teach you southern Thai, if you could find a qualified person. I doubt any TV.com member is fluent in Southern Thai (maybe I'm wrong about that though!).

The language itself is a blend of standard Thai spoken with different tones (example: The number 205 is spoken [F]sawng [L]rawy [H]haa instead of [R]sawng [H]rawy [F]haa) mixed with Yawi (an older Malay dialect) and Hokkien Chinese (for example ko-pee for coffee).

For audio samples of Southern Thai (as well as other Thai dialects) check out this web page:

Thai samples

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ProfessorFart]

Concentrate on Central Thai and then build on that.

[Edward B]

ไม่พรื้อ (southern)= ไม่เป็นไร (central)

[Hua Nguu]

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You will find a list here:

List of southern thai expressions

Cheers

Michael

[meadish_sweetball]

Good initiative with the list, but take it with a pinch of salt.

Thais from Central Thailand have this (annoying) habit of presenting formal language as "Standard Thai" and contrast that with supposed "dialect" expressions. Many of the word pairs in the list are actually just the difference between "polite" and "everyday" language, in Central Thailand as well.

Examples: ปวด and เจ็บ - both of these words are used as synonyms in Central Thai. There are other expressions in the list like this as well.

[sabaijai]

Good initiative with the list, but take it with a pinch of salt.

Thais from Central Thailand have this (annoying) habit of presenting formal language as "Standard Thai" and contrast that with supposed "dialect" expressions. Many of the word pairs in the list are actually just the difference between "polite" and "everyday" language, in Central Thailand as well.

Examples: ปวด and เจ็บ - both of these words are used as synonyms in Central Thai. There are other expressions in the list like this as well.

I believe in Standard Thai ปวด means 'ache' and เจ็บ means 'hurt'. In Southern Thai (also Lao), my impression is they use เจ็บ for both meanings. I could be wrong though.

All the examples looks correct, as far as I can tell from listening to southerners speak.

[sbk]

Concentrate on Central Thai and then build on that.

Why??? Central Thai and Southern Thai aren't that directly related and as it is Southern she wants to learn lets not cloud the issue with typical Bangkok/Central snobbery about other dialects.

And Seville, down here we say "Aahn mai toe" with an nice rising tone on the 'toe'. While I am not fluent in southern Thai, I am not bad after 16 years of it. Right now its full moon crazy time and I am swamped but give me another 3-4 days and I will get a few more phrases together for you. Write down what you are interested in saying and I can tell you how to say it, since all I know is southern Thai I couldn't really say what is and what isn't. Also, if you want any fishing words, I am fluent in fishing

[sbk]

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down. 

You will find a list here:

List of southern thai expressions

Cheers

Michael

Well, Michael, had hubby look at that list and he said many words are wrong, for Surat Thani, anyway. 'Key' for example is not 'lo jey' (which is actually lock) but 'lo taeng' (sorry, can't seem to get my keyboard into Thai) and the one for shirt, they are using the word for mat in southern Thai.

Many southernisms are shortened versions of the word, 'lime' being a good example. 'Leuk Manao' (a lime) translates into 'lo'nao', 'eggplant' ; 'ma'keua' becomes 'lo'keua'. Tones are different and the words are drawled a bit.

[sabaijai]

This kind of started in the Ladies Forum, but do any of you language experts feel like writing down some southern Thai? I'm trying like **** to pick it up, but I learn a lot faster when I see it writen down. 

You will find a list here:

List of southern thai expressions

Cheers

Michael

Well, Michael, had hubby look at that list and he said many words are wrong, for Surat Thani, anyway. 'Key' for example is not 'lo jey' (which is actually lock) but 'lo taeng' (sorry, can't seem to get my keyboard into Thai) and the one for shirt, they are using the word for mat in southern Thai.

Many southernisms are shortened versions of the word, 'lime' being a good example. 'Leuk Manao' (a lime) translates into 'lo'nao', 'eggplant' ; 'ma'keua' becomes 'lo'keua'. Tones are different and the words are drawled a bit.

This points out another problem trying to learn 'southern Thai' via the Internet, as there are differing dialects for practically every province in the south. The word for cashew, for example, is kayu in Ranong but kayi in Phuket (or maybe it's vice versa, I forget). Thai pak tai (southern Thai) in Krabi sounds a lot different to me than thai pak tai in Surat. Likewise Satun differs from Krabi, and so on. There is no single dialect of thai pak tai, just as there is no single Isan dialect (rather there are 19 in Isan, according to Thai linguists).

[seville]

Thanks for the advice on the list. I go to that site often, but my reading in Thai is very poor.

SBK

I can't really think of anything specific, just a list of phrases that you think are common every day Southern speak as opposed to central.

I do study the central and people understand me, but I live on Phangan 3 months out of the year, not BKK. It will be fun to show up and have a few southern phrases under my belt. My friends will get a big kick out of it and wonder how the heck I learned southern speak while state side.

[Richard W]

Many southernisms are shortened versions of the word, 'lime' being a good example. 'Leuk Manao' (a lime) translates into 'lo'nao', 'eggplant' ; 'ma'keua'  becomes 'lo'keua'. Tones are different and the words are drawled a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think _rang_ 'European' is a better example, if I remember you correctly. The ma- prefix is not universal in SW Tai (Li records it for Shan, but not for Lao or WhiteTai, in the 'eggplant' word), so it may never have been there in Southern Thai.

Mind you, most Thai varieties do a lot of shortening like this - [M]ka[M]yaan for [M/L]jak[M/L]kra[M]yaan, [M]pio[ML]toe for [M]khorm[M]pio[ML]toe, [M]thaan for [H]rap[M/L]pra[M]thaan. I'm tempted to add [M]oo for *[M]oo[M]thii, as in [M]tham[M]oo 'work overtime', but I'm not sure if *[M]oo[M]thii 'overtime' ever existed in Thai.

[sbk]

Many southernisms are shortened versions of the word, 'lime' being a good example. 'Leuk Manao' (a lime) translates into 'lo'nao', 'eggplant' ; 'ma'keua'  becomes 'lo'keua'. Tones are different and the words are drawled a bit.

I think _rang_ 'European' is a better example, if I remember you correctly. The ma- prefix is not universal in SW Tai (Li records it for Shan, but not for Lao or WhiteTai, in the 'eggplant' word), so it may never have been there in Southern Thai.

Mind you, most Thai varieties do a lot of shortening like this - [M]ka[M]yaan for [M/L]jak[M/L]kra[M]yaan, [M]pio[ML]toe for [M]khorm[M]pio[ML]toe, [M]thaan for [H]rap[M/L]pra[M]thaan. I'm tempted to add [M]oo for *[M]oo[M]thii, as in [M]tham[M]oo 'work overtime', but I'm not sure if *[M]oo[M]thii 'overtime' ever existed in Thai.

that's really interesting, there are many such words in southern Thai that are lacking the ma prefix (coconut is usually 'plao'). Also, it is best not to confuse the Yawi language spoken in the deep South with the southern dialect. Yawi is more Malay based. Also, I should point out that southerners have no difficulty understanding each other.

As for the shortening of words, rang is a good example, another one would be mui for Samui.

Ya'nut for pineapple, could be Surat, could be southern. I'll ask. But, for your benefit, Seville, this is a good one to learn as everyone here uses ya'nut instead of sapparot.

[Hua Nguu]

. Also, I should point out that southerners have no difficulty understanding each other. 

Really? Surely that doesn`t apply to Yawi and the general southern dialect.

Last year we were sitting in a restaurant in Krabi. At the next table were 4-5 thai students speaking rather loudly so that we couldn`t help overhearing their conversation.

Every once in a while one of the guys would switch to Yawi and ask the girls if they understood. They were left completely in the dark. As were I and the missus (issarn).

Cheers

Michael

[sbk]

That is what I said, isn't it? Yawi should not be confused with the general southern dialect as it is a Malay based language. When speaking the southern Thai dialect they do understand each other.

[sabaijai]

sbk, there is no single 'southern dialect', it varies from province to province. Dialects spoken in Krabi, Phuket, Ranong, Chumphon, Surat Thani and Nakhon Si Thammarat differ from one another.

The various dialects are mutually intelligible, just as differing dialects of northeastern Thai are mutually intelligible, and in fact Lao (Vientiane Lao being almost the same as Udon Isan) and Thai are rated at 70% mutual intelligibility.

Intelligibility between various southern dialects would be much higher of course, probably close to 90%. It's the same in other regions of Thailand, groups of dialects in the north that are similar are called 'northern Thai', and so on. But Chiang Rai Thai sounds very different from Chiang Mai Thai.

If 'southern Thai' were a written language, and explicitly taught in the schools, then one southern dialect could be chosen as the standard. Without such a system, you may think you're learning 'southern Thai', but you'll really be learning the dialect of your teacher, that's all.

I believe all southern Thai dialects contain some Yawi words, or at least that's what I've been told by a Thai who teaches at Prince of Songkhla Univ. In fact the words for fruits, etc, that differ completely from central Thai are usually Yawi in origin. My father-in-law speaks both 'pure' Yawi and the Krabi dialect of southern Thai, and he says that some of the words are the same.

[meadish_sweetball]

sbk, there is no single 'southern dialect', it varies from province to province. Dialects spoken in Krabi, Phuket, Ranong, Chumphon, Surat Thani and Nakhon Si Thammarat differ from one another.

The various dialects are mutually intelligible, just as differing dialects of northeastern Thai are mutually intelligible, and in fact Lao (Vientiane Lao being almost the same as Udon Isan) and Thai are rated at 70% mutual intelligibility.

Intelligibility between various southern dialects would be much higher of course, probably close to 90%. It's the same in other regions of Thailand, groups of dialects in the north that are similar are called 'northern Thai', and so on. But Chiang Rai Thai sounds very different from Chiang Mai Thai.

If 'southern Thai' were a written language, and explicitly taught in the schools,  then one southern dialect could be chosen as the standard. Without such a system, you may think you're learning 'southern Thai', but you'll really be learning the dialect of your teacher, that's all.

I believe all southern Thai dialects contain some Yawi words, or at least that's what I've been told by a Thai who teaches at Prince of Songkhla Univ. In fact the words for fruits, etc, that differ completely from central Thai are usually Yawi in origin. My father-in-law speaks both 'pure' Yawi and the Krabi dialect of southern Thai, and he says that some of the words are the same.

In Linguistic Diversity and National Unity: The Language Ecology of Thailand Smalley claims there is an educated pan-Southern dialect that differs in a number of specific features from the regional variants.

[sabaijai]

sbk, there is no single 'southern dialect', it varies from province to province. Dialects spoken in Krabi, Phuket, Ranong, Chumphon, Surat Thani and Nakhon Si Thammarat differ from one another.

The various dialects are mutually intelligible, just as differing dialects of northeastern Thai are mutually intelligible, and in fact Lao (Vientiane Lao being almost the same as Udon Isan) and Thai are rated at 70% mutual intelligibility.

Intelligibility between various southern dialects would be much higher of course, probably close to 90%. It's the same in other regions of Thailand, groups of dialects in the north that are similar are called 'northern Thai', and so on. But Chiang Rai Thai sounds very different from Chiang Mai Thai.

If 'southern Thai' were a written language, and explicitly taught in the schools,  then one southern dialect could be chosen as the standard. Without such a system, you may think you're learning 'southern Thai', but you'll really be learning the dialect of your teacher, that's all.

I believe all southern Thai dialects contain some Yawi words, or at least that's what I've been told by a Thai who teaches at Prince of Songkhla Univ. In fact the words for fruits, etc, that differ completely from central Thai are usually Yawi in origin. My father-in-law speaks both 'pure' Yawi and the Krabi dialect of southern Thai, and he says that some of the words are the same.

In Linguistic Diversity and National Unity: The Language Ecology of Thailand Smalley claims there is an educated pan-Southern dialect that differs in a number of specific features from the regional variants.

Mead, interesting looking book. Have you read it? I don't see that the table of contents from the web page says anything about a pan-Southern dialect. Does Smalley claim the same for Isan and Northern Thai? I've never come across a pan-Northern dialect or pan-Isan one in my travels in Thailand. Certainly sounds plausible, though I'd like to know what the base for the 'pan-dialect' would be. I'd guess Nakhon.

[sbk]

Lakh dtahn; means really really. Like rohn lahk dtahn.

I guess what I meant isn't that they are all the same but that they do understand each other pretty well. My neighbor's wife is from Ranong and understands about 95% of what people are saying here. So, yes there are some differences from province to province but personally, seems a bit nitpicky to say I am not speaking "southern thai" per say when almost everybody in the south will understand me just fine. Do minor differences in word content really constitute an entirely different dialect? Seems to me it would be more likely to be considered as variations on one. Also, according to my husband I have a purely southern accent and as soon as I open my mouth, everyone knows I live in the South. Nobody can pinpoint exactly where but they do know it is the south. So, again, it seems putting a tad too fine of a point on it saying that the provinces have different dialects when the similarities (vocabulary and accent) are more similar than different.

Anyway, just to be picky, here is the dictionary definition of dialect:

a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language

and also: A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος) is a variant, or variety, of a language spoken in a certain geographical area. The number of speakers, and the area itself, can be of arbitrary size. It follows that a dialect for a larger area can contain plenty of (sub-) dialects, which in turn can contain dialects of yet smaller areas, et cetera.

A dialect is a complete system of verbal communication (oral but not necessarily written), with its own vocabulary, grammar, and syntax. Two dialects that share enough similarities may be said to belong to the same language (or two dialects of one language).

[sabaijai]

The lines we use to divide spoken communication into language, dialect and idiolect are always going to be open to criticism and interpretation. I'm far from an expert on the subject but when I did Thai studies at university we had a professor one year who was an expert on Southern Thai culture and language and he said there were several separate dialects, just as there are for Isan and Northern Thai.

All I know first hand is what I've heard travelling around the provinces from Chumphon to the border, and noticing differing vocabulary and tones from province to province. Hence I lean towards the opinions I heard back in uni, ie, that there are several different dialects of Southern Thai. I'd like to know more about this idea of a pan-Southern dialect, which I've never encountered.

It would be interesting to see what the ajahns at the Institute of Southern Thai Studies at Prince of Songkhla University might have to say on the subject.

[meadish_sweetball]

The lines we use to divide spoken communication into language, dialect and idiolect are always going to be open to criticism and interpretation. I'm far from an expert on the subject but when I did Thai studies at university we had a professor one year who was an expert on Southern Thai culture and language and he said there were several separate dialects, just as there are for Isan and Northern Thai.

All I know first hand is what I've heard travelling around the provinces from Chumphon to the border, and noticing differing vocabulary and tones from province to province. Hence I lean towards the opinions I heard back in uni, ie, that there are several different dialects of Southern Thai. I'd like to know more about this idea of a pan-Southern dialect, which I've never encountered.

It would be interesting to see what the ajahns at the Institute of Southern Thai Studies at Prince of Songkhla University might have to say on the subject.

I did read Smalley's book a few years ago back at uni and I am considering trying to get a copy shipped over here as well, because I am sure it has more to give me now that I've spent 3 years living here as well.

As I remember it (possibly not entirely correct), he stressed that there was an "educated pak tai" that showed more features in common with Central Thai than what local variations typically do. To call it a "pan-Southern dialect" might be a bit too much.

He did not list similar educated speech variations for the North and Issan, at least not as I remember, but my own exposure to Kham Meuang suggests there are a few northern dialect words/expressions educated speakers, especially in the younger generations, avoid. In this watered down Kham meuang "bor jai" is more common than "bor maen" (meaning "mai chai").

[sabaijai]

As I remember it (possibly not entirely correct), he stressed that there was an "educated pak tai" that showed more features in common with Central Thai than what local variations typically do. To call it a "pan-Southern dialect" might be a bit too much.

He did not list similar educated speech variations for the North and Issan, at least not as I remember, but my own exposure to Kham Meuang suggests there are a few northern dialect words/expressions educated speakers, especially in the younger generations, avoid. In this watered down Kham meuang "bor jai" is more common than "bor maen" (meaning "mai chai").

This sounds more in line with what I've noticed in all three non-central regions. Definitely there is a 'watered-down' kam meuang that people in the north use, that's a mixture of Chiang Mai dialect and Central Thai. It seems to be used to show that one is 'pen kan eng', ie, friendly & reasonable, one of the people, etc.

The Northern Thai they teach at AUA is the Chiang Mai dialect, and not the watered-down version.

I've been involved in on-air discussions at a Chiang Mai radio station a couple of times and have noticed a diluted Northern Thai being used in the commercial ads, though the discussion is always normal kam meuang (challenging for me to say the least, but they don't that I reply in 'very diluted' Northern Thai, ie mostly Standard Thai).

I've just ordered the Smalley book via Amazon, look forward to reading it.

[sbk]

OK Seville:

'Laeng mai kwangtoe' with the 'toe' a rising tone. Doesn't understand. ie: my mother-in-law talks a mile a minute, and half the time I don't get what she's saying (probably for the best). One time she was yadda yaddaing at me and when I didn't understand she said the same thing again, but louder. When my father-in-law interjected, "Laeng mai kwangtoe!" 'She doesn't understand what you are saying!' Not meant to be an insult to me, just letting her know that repeating herself wasn't going to make herself understood.

Laeng means to speak: "laeng pasa dai" 'speaks southern Thai'

Douachao (rising tone on the chao) tomorrow morning

do reu; last night or yesterday

Gay pi; how old ie"gay pi lao?" how old are you?

telling time is a different story here, and much easier. Dti neung, dti song, dti sahm (one o clock, two oclock three oclock). if there is any misunderstanding about am or pm 'dti neung donchao' 1 am.

reua bin: airplane. This could be strictly islands as khleung bin is airplane and reua bin comes from pontoon planes that people here used to see. But now reua bin is all airplanes.

More as they come to me....

Edited January 31, 2005 by sbk

[seville]

Thanks SBK I'm back on the island in 12 days. When you can keep them coming. I don't visit Thai Visa when I'm there.

[HarryHerb]

I'm resucitating this thread from about a year ago - not sure what the etiquette is, so someone pls let me know if I should start a new one.

But there is lots still to say on this topic... so, calling all Southern Thai lovers! (or rather "lovers of southern Thai language", for clarity's sake ). Yes, all those who find the nasal whinnying of Central and Northern Thai grating and prefer the sing-song sounds of the south. There must be some of you out there.

The idea put forward of there being a pan-southern dialect is perfectly true. It is used by those in the higher social ranks, through education or otherwise, in preference to Central Thai to show 'where they come from'.

It is mainly based on Central Thai vocabulary (although all is spoken with a southern accent / tones) and is peppered with standard southern expressions and words that are used across the region, as opposed to the provincial and village slang, which is anyway considered to be 'low language'. The other difference is that it is politer, with universal use of krap/ ka (not usually present otherwise). It seems to me to sound the same when used between people in the same village, as well as across provinces.

A lot of the vocabulary is very hard to write down - especially as my writing skills are not really up to that yet- but I think it would be a good idea to start a word list (even if transliterated).

Of sbk's examples only one is standard southern: 'leng' - to talk, speak. The others are mostly just different pronounciations of Central Thai words: กี่ี่ being pronounced more like 'gay' (compare also สี่ which sounds like a northern English person saying 'say'). Similarly the letter ค (ko kwai) is pronounced like an 'f', so kwai comes out like fhai.

The 'l's as 'r's of Central and Northern Thai do not exist here: An 'r' is an 'r'. So there's no 'mai luu leuang', but 'mai ruu reuang' (or, more likely 'mai ruu fang').

I could go on, but I don't want to bore everyone to death. Is there anyone else who's interested in this kind of discussion and /or compiling a list of southern expressions?

[skylar]

Hum, Southerners tend to speak a lot quicker... and a lot of words considered informal are used... like tdeen instead of taw for foot... also they grunt a bit. You can say 'uh' in a questioning way with friends, but this is not allowed in a formal situation. Or 'uh' in a decisive way, implying agreement... anyway down there I felt like I was walking around with earmuffs on.

[naomisri]

I totally love Southern Thai. It irritates me that I speak a lot of it without knowing though. It's hard when you learn a mixture of Bangkok and Southern Thai to ever be able to differentiate between the two. This might not matter to some people, but can make you appear differently when talking to Thai people from other areas. Most just think it's amusing though.

I would love to get some terms down so that I can make out when to use dteen and when to use taw - as per skylarks example! In fact I had no idea that there was another word for foot... You can see my problem.

My Thai isn't fantastic, but I would be happy to contribute where I can!

[meadish_sweetball]

I think it is safe to say that the grunts are common to all dialects (although the tones and sounds may differ a bit) - but typically not used with strangers because seen as impolite. In Isarn and Northern Thailand, the grunt อื้ is the most common form for yes in informal situations, especially among male speakers (but also among females who are close friends or family).

Keep the Southern Thai coming. It is very interesting for me as it is the form of Thai I have had the least exposure to.

As a side note, in the comedy Bangkok Loco from 2005, there is a 'drum guru' who speaks a fully comprehensible version of Southern Thai - basically what he does is to just twist around the tones, creating a comical effect for anyone who's used to Central Thai. No specific dialect expressions are used.

[skylar]

Yes, but I know heaps of people in Bangkok well and none of them ever grunted with/at me!