Note In My Passport

[waiolas]

Hi all,

After my second 30 day exemption stamp I noticed the thai immigration officer putting this little addition in my passport. I think it has something to do with the new 90 days in 180 rule, but I'm not sure what.

Is it how many days left I have(out of 90) that I can stay in Thailand via exemption? Or how many days until my exemption status is reset?

Here is a summary of my entries/exits:

Arrived September 13th '06

Got 7 day extension at immigration, extending my stay to 19th oct.

Exited thailand on the 14th Oct.

Entered back into thailand on the 14th Oct.

Exited thailand on the 29th oct.

Entered thailand on nov 1st (with tourist visa)

Got 30 day extension at immigration, extending my stay to 29th Jan 07.

Exited thailand on 28th jan, re-entered thailand the same day, admitted until 26th feb 07.

Any insight would be appreciated. I need to start planning a trip if I need to get another tourist visa before my 90 in 180 is reset.

[kriswillems]

It's says: second time, 44 days remaining (ครั้ง = time/occasion, คงเหลือ = kongleua = remain).

[kriswillems]

The new police order started at october 1st.

Only the enrties on 30-day visa exemption stamps should be counted.

You stayed 14 days : 1-14 october

You will stay 30 days from (jan 28 -feb 26): 30 days

Together 44 days.

I would say 44 days are used on feb 26, not 44 days remainning.

I am also confused.

[ciooni]

- First entry without visa after 1st October:

14th Oct. --> exit 29th Oct. = 16 days

(day of entry and day of exit are also counted)

- Second entry without visa:

28th Jan. 2007--> 30 days allowed until 26th Feb.

Total first stay (actual) and second stay (only on paper): 46 days

Maximum stay without visa = 90 days

90 - 46 = 44 days remaining

But what if the OP exits Thailand before 26th Feb? He will not use all of the 30 days of the second entry.

So "44" in the stamp is a count based on a presumption and not on the actual length of stay in Thailand.

Next time will the Immigration count again or just look at the previous stamp?

[Maestro]

...and the winner is...ciooni. His is the correct calculation.

Waiolas, treasure that stamp. Keep that passport even after it expires. That stamp will become an important memento of Thailand’s history of immigration procedures.

--

Maestro

[waiolas]

Thanks for the help. So 180 days after october 14th, I will be able to have another 90 days of visa exemption? Oh, and is there any reason why immigration counted the number of times I entered thailand without a visa?

Thanks again.

[Maestro]

...is there any reason why immigration counted the number of times I entered thailand without a visa?

No official reason. Some immigration officers at some immigration check points number and highlight visa-exempt entry stamps to make it easier to find them for counting the days. This may be helpful during the first six months after a tourist’s entry after October 1, 2006 but I can’t see its usefulness later, as it will then be a rolling 6-month period that applies. One thing is already emerging: the counting is not being applied consistently. Some predictions (or hopes?) are that Immigration will in the long run find it impossible to enforce this rule strictly and if not abandon it entirely, will use it only selectively.

There have already been a few reports of an officer taking 15 minutes to process an arriving passenger while trying to add up the visa-exempt days. Imagine the mayhem if this were the case with all passengers presenting passports with visa-exempt entry stamps!

--

Maestro

[warwick7735]

Hi all

I thought they wouldn't of started the counting until the 1st October, but in your case they started when you arrived in sept.

When your passport was stamped you still had 44 days remaining, after the 26th Feb you will have a remaining 14 days, so if you leave and return they will only stamp you for 14 more days, unless you acquire another visa of sorts. If not after those 14 days you will not be able to enter Thailand on a VOE until your 180 days is up on the 12th March.

Hope my maths was correct

Warwick

[Maestro]

To illustrate the difficulties I foresee for immigration officers in administering the 90-day limitation within 6 months I have made the following table.

Now, assume you are the immigration officer and on August 25 I present my passport with those visa-exempt entry and exit stamps. The question you must ask yourself is this:

“Is this tourist allowed a visa-exempt entry today? If yes, until what date – let’s call it <date X> – can I admit him so that by <date X> he will have 90 days during the 6-month period until <date X>?”

For this calculation, you are allowed to use paper, a pen, an electronic calculator, your fingers and your toes, but no computer.

Any mathematical genius is welcome to try his hand at this.

--

Maestro

//Edit: Disregard the column "days". The numbers are wrong. Make your own calculations.

[waiolas]

Hi all

I thought they wouldn't of started the counting until the 1st October, but in your case they started when you arrived in sept.

When your passport was stamped you still had 44 days remaining, after the 26th Feb you will have a remaining 14 days, so if you leave and return they will only stamp you for 14 more days, unless you acquire another visa of sorts. If not after those 14 days you will not be able to enter Thailand on a VOE until your 180 days is up on the 12th March.

Hope my maths was correct

Warwick

Ugh, if that is indeed the case, it looks like I'll just be few days off. Maybe an excuse to go to Angkor Wat or Vang Vieng for several days.

[ciooni]

I don't think the Immigration took into consideration stays before the 1st October 2006 as maestro says.

They actually counted the days starting from the first entry after the 1st October (i.e. from the 14th October) plus the days of the second entry even if they are not yet used (30 days from the 28th January).

The new rules came into force the 1st October 2006 and are not retroactive.

So at the next visa-exempt entry the Immigration Officer needs only to check the actual length of the last stay in Thailand (i.e. look at the last entry-exit stamps), subtract it from 44 (see highlighted stamp on the same page), and put the result in a new similar stamp.

Just a quick check and no more long waiting in queue at the Immigration counters.

[george]

We have a beta version of a "visa calculator" running here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/external/visa-calculator.html

Your comments, please!

[Crossy]

We have a beta version of a "visa calculator" running here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/external/visa-calculator.html

Your comments, please!

EXCELLENT!!!

Only done a quick test, but it seems to work fine, doesn't matter what order you enter the stamps

Does it do the 'rolling' 180 day period?

A 'store' function (linked to a cookie or your username) would be handy so you don't have to punch in all your dates every time.

Are you going to sell it to immigration?

[tropo]

To illustrate the difficulties I foresee for immigration officers in administering the 90-day limitation within 6 months I have made the following table.

Now, assume you are the immigration officer and on August 25 I present my passport with those visa-exempt entry and exit stamps. The question you must ask yourself is this:

“Is this tourist allowed a visa-exempt entry today? If yes, until what date – let’s call it <date X> – can I admit him so that by <date X> he will have 90 days during the 6-month period until <date X>?”

For this calculation, you are allowed to use paper, a pen, an electronic calculator, your fingers and your toes, but no computer.

Any mathematical genius is welcome to try his hand at this.

--

Maestro

That was a real brain teaser Maestro, and demonstrates clearly how difficult this counting process is in reality.

My calculation is as follows:

(Note: Your stay tallies are out by one day as the first day of each entry has not been added into your calculations.)

The 180 day period is 27 March to 25 August 2007

Adding all days stayed during this period gives a total of 93 days (22+21+23+11+15), therefore on the 25 August this hypothetical tourist should not be allowed entry and the earliest legal entry would be on 28 August, and on that day he would be allowed a maximum stay of 19 days to 15 September. i.e. During the 180 days from 20 March to 15 September he has reached his 90 day limit.

The earliest possible entry date for him to obtain a full 30 day visa exempt stamp would be 10 October having completed 60 days by 9 October.

It's a nightmare to caclulate without a computer.

[sriracha john]

Great "Visa-less Calculator"...

Might it be good to pin it up in the header of the Thaivisa page... say alongside "Baht Rates," for ease of accessibility?

[tropo]

That was a real brain teaser Maestro, and demonstrates clearly how difficult this counting process is in reality.

My calculation is as follows:

(Note: Your stay tallies are out by one day as the first day of each entry has not been added into your calculations.)

The 180 day period is 27 March to 25 August 2007

Adding all days stayed during this period gives a total of 93 days (22+21+23+11+15), therefore on the 25 August this hypothetical tourist should not be allowed entry and the earliest legal entry would be on 28 August, and on that day he would be allowed a maximum stay of 19 days to 15 September. i.e. During the 180 days from 20 March to 15 September he has reached his 90 day limit.

The earliest possible entry date for him to obtain a full 30 day visa exempt stamp would be 10 October having completed 60 days by 9 October.

It's a nightmare to caclulate without a computer.

I noticed my mistake too late to do an edit. The highlighted 180 day period above should read: "27 February to 25 August 2007"

[Maestro]

I noticed my mistake too late to do an edit. The highlighted 180 day period above should read: "27 February to 25 August 2007"

No, Tropo. You are the immigration officer. I arrive at Bangkok airport on 25 August 2007. The 6-month (not 180-day) period you have to consider is not the 6 months before 25 August. It is the 6 months until the new “admitted until...” date you are going to stamp in my passport, and the question is: “what is this new “admitted until...” date so that I will have exactly 90 days within the 6-month period until the new “admitted until...” date?

Use a spreadsheet table, by all means; use the new visa calculator of ThaiVisa. I thought I was good at Microsoft Excel but I have not yet figured out the formula for this.

--

Maestro

[ciooni]

Actually the calculation for the Immigration officer is not that difficult as many people think, especially after the first time.

Consular and immigration officers of European Countries are supposed to do the same calculation when foreign tourists come to a "Schengen" country.

Non-European tourists are permitted to stay in the Schengen area on a tourist visa (or visa exempt in some cases) up to 3 months during a period of 6 months, starting from the day of the first entry. Same same.

"Six months" means, for example, 31 August-->28 February, i.e. the corresponding day in the sixth following month. Not difficult.

Thai immigration clerk just has to take note of the expiration of the "6 months", number every entry during the six months in sequence, and write the number of remaining days each time. To do so he will only need to look at the previous highlighted entry-exit stamp.

[sjaak327]

Actually the calculation for the Immigration officer is not that difficult as many people think, especially after the first time.

Consular and immigration officers of European Countries are supposed to do the same calculation when foreign tourists come to a "Schengen" country.

Non-European tourists are permitted to stay in the Schengen area on a tourist visa (or visa exempt in some cases) up to 3 months during a period of 6 months, starting from the day of the first entry. Same same.

"Six months" means, for example, 31 August-->28 February, i.e. the corresponding day in the sixth following month. Not difficult.

Thai immigration clerk just has to take note of the expiration of the "6 months", number every entry during the six months in sequence, and write the number of remaining days each time. To do so he will only need to look at the previous highlighted entry-exit stamp.

Your story is partly correct. It is not 3 months but 90 days.

[ciooni]

Well, actually it's "3 months" according to the Schengen (European) Agreement, and "90 days" for Thailand according to the Police Order no. 608/2006.

[Maestro]

Actually the calculation for the Immigration officer is not that difficult as many people think, especially after the first time.

...and what is the answer to my question?

--

Maestro

[sjaak327]

Well, actually it's "3 months" according to the Schengen (European) Agreement, and "90 days" for Thailand according to the Police Order no. 608/2006.

Maybe the term differs from country to country, I have applied for a schengen visa for my Lao friend (main country the Netherlands) . And was told specifically that it's validity is 90 days and not three months. Also the period in which he can re-apply was stated as 180 days, not 6 months.

The main rule is that you cannot stay in a schengen country more then 90 days. If you want to stay 91 days or longer you need to apply for provisional stay.

[keenok]

Well, actually it's "3 months" according to the Schengen (European) Agreement, and "90 days" for Thailand according to the Police Order no. 608/2006.

no problems at all then ?? no queus at the counter??

[mr_hippo]

Actually the calculation for the Immigration officer is not that difficult as many people think, especially after the first time.

...and what is the answer to my question?

--

Maestro

25 Nov 2005

http://cgi.cs.duke.edu/~des/datecalc/datecalc.cgi

[tropo]

I noticed my mistake too late to do an edit. The highlighted 180 day period above should read: "27 February to 25 August 2007"

No, Tropo. You are the immigration officer. I arrive at Bangkok airport on 25 August 2007. The 6-month (not 180-day) period you have to consider is not the 6 months before 25 August. It is the 6 months until the new “admitted until...” date you are going to stamp in my passport, and the question is: “what is this new “admitted until...” date so that I will have exactly 90 days within the 6-month period until the new “admitted until...” date?

Use a spreadsheet table, by all means; use the new visa calculator of ThaiVisa. I thought I was good at Microsoft Excel but I have not yet figured out the formula for this.

--

Maestro

I did answer your question.

I stated that on 25 August he should not gain entry as to that day he has stayed 93 days out of the last 180. He could not gain legal entry until 28 August.

I agreed with you that it's a tricky calculation (not impossible) to work out how many days to admit a tourist if they arrive with days in their "90 day bank"...but your example was easy as he was already over his allowance. If you care to give me an example wherein the hypothetical tourist enters under his limit, I shall be happy to give you an exact answer.

I don't believe they will use a 6-month period instead of 180 days as that would make calculations impossible for the 31st day of certain months and for February.

eg.

28 February to 28 August

28 February to 29 August

28 February to 30 August

28 February to 31 August

then:

1 March to 1 September

and:

29 February to 29 August

29 February to 30 August

29 February to 31 August

Are these all the same 6-month period?

[ciooni]

.......................

Are these all the same 6-month period?

No they aren't. And they're not required to be.

This is what counting by months generally means, instead of counting by days. The new rules refer to "six months" and not "180 days" (to be correct we should mean 182.5 days ).

6 months starting from 31 August will end 28 (or 29) February.

Calculating by months is easier.

[ciooni]

Well, actually it's "3 months" according to the Schengen (European) Agreement, and "90 days" for Thailand according to the Police Order no. 608/2006.

Maybe the term differs from country to country, I have applied for a schengen visa for my Lao friend (main country the Netherlands) . And was told specifically that it's validity is 90 days and not three months. Also the period in which he can re-apply was stated as 180 days, not 6 months.

The main rule is that you cannot stay in a schengen country more then 90 days. If you want to stay 91 days or longer you need to apply for provisional stay.

The Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement refers literally to "three months" "during six months" (Articles 5-10-11-19-20-21), but then visas are issued in practice as maximum 90 days during 180 days from the first entry. Not that big difference anyway...

e.g. Article 20: "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties for a maximum

period of three months during the six months following the

date of first entry, provided that they fulfil the entry conditions..."

[Maestro]

25 Nov 2005

http://cgi.cs.duke.edu/~des/datecalc/datecalc.cgi

Wrong, my friend. A visa-exempt entry can be for a maximum of 30 days only per entry. If you admit me until 25 NOV when I arrive on 25 AUG, you would be giving me 93 days.

If you give me 30 days on 25 AUG, this brings me to 23 SEP.

Now we have to add up the total days in Thailand from 24 MAR until 23 SEP, i.e. the figures in column C for rows 5 to 9, and we arrive at a total of 101 days. That’s 11 days too many.

Easy, you say. 30-11=19, so I give him 19 days only, admit him until 12 SEP.

Now we have to consider the 6-month period from 13 MAR until 12 SEP, i.e. the figures in column C for rows 5 to 9 plus, from row 4, the period from 13 MAR to 20 MAR only and we arrive not at 90, but at 98 days. Interesting, isn’t it?

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

Adding all days stayed during this period gives a total of 93 days (22+21+23+11+15), therefore on the 25 August this hypothetical tourist should not be allowed entry and the earliest legal entry would be on 28 August, and on that day he would be allowed a maximum stay of 19 days to 15 September. i.e. During the 180 days from 20 March to 15 September he has reached his 90 day limit.

Good try, my friend, but wrong.

I arrive on 28 AUG, you give 19 days and admit me until 15 SEP. This means that you have to look at the 6-month period from 16 MAR until 15 SEP.

Now, you have to add the figures in column C for the rows 5 to 9 plus, from row 4, the period from 16 MAR to 20 MAR, and you arrive at a total of 95 days within 6 months.

Next, please.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

Tropo, Hippo, and other interested parties: attached is the Excel spreadsheet I am using for my calculations.

The formula in cell E4 works only if you have the Add-In “Analysis ToolPack” installed. Otherwise, use the formula B9-183 or B9-182, whichever, depending on the value in B9, gives you the correct date for E4.

--

Maestro

days.xls