Thai And Chinese Cuisine Keep Using Msg

[brahmburgers]

I usually tell the waiter at the start of ordering: 'mai aow pom churot' (I don't want MSG). I recently went to Cabbages and Condoms restaurant and, because they cater to many farang, I didn't mention it. I should mention that I'm sensitive to MSG. Symptoms: violent dreams, dry mouth, fast/weak pulse, headache, insomnia, general uneasiness. If you don't get any affects, great! ...but some of us do. Indeed, some people have died from overdose of MSG (two elder guys in NYC went to a restaurant which had unwittingly put MSG in the salt shakers - R.I.P.) ....to name just one isolated incident from years ago.

Someone should make large stickers that say something like: 'no MSG used here' and slap them at places which don't use it. Unfortunately, even if a restaurant says it doesn't use the stuff, it probably does - especially if it has an Asian cook/cuisine. Reason: every Asian kitchen has many many bottles of sauce and spices, and most of those bottles have MSG in 'em (and most come from China). Check it out for yourself. Go to any store that sells bottled stuff for cooking and read the fine print on the labels. Besides most things having copious amounts of salt and sugar, there are sure to be many with MSG.

[solo siam]

'no MSG used here'

That would be a great way to get an empty restaurant here in Thailand.

[goski]

'mai aow pom churot' (No, my name is taste) might be the problem....

ผงชูรส = pong choo rot

[soap]

. Symptoms: violent dreams, dry mouth, fast/weak pulse, headache, insomnia, general uneasiness.

i would not buy any new clothes,i dont think you will here long enough to wear them

[sceadugenga]

I sympathize with your problem but think you are optimistic if your hoping for any changes. The only thing I can say is eat at home and if you go out avoid the more obvious dishes, even if it means sticking to stuff like fruit, boiled rice and eggs, but even with an omelet you'd need to be wary.

[mumbojumbo]

There is a good, reasonable Thai restuarant just off the Super named At's i think. Lady

owner has a sign on wall or menu in english "No MSG used" Map attached

Edited March 3, 2007 by mumbojumbo

[Ulysses G.]

Cabbages and Condoms doesn't use MSG.

It's all in your mind.

[H2oDunc]

Im always of the belief that most of these things are in the mind. All you can do is eat at home. telling, or as it appears by an earlier post not, that you dont want MSG wont in my opinion help. Having just asked 10 Thais here not one knew what it was. These fads come and go. One day its no MSG the next its TFA, thats trans fatty acids. Try drinking more chang, Ive found it helps me!!!!!!!

IF YOU CANT DIVE! RIDE!

[Mid]

Having just asked 10 Thais here not one knew what it was

ask about argee moto ( sp ) ..................

[brahmburgers]

responding to misconstrued responses:

when I mention, "mai aow pom chorut' the thai waiters understand. Whether they convey the message to the cooks is quastionable, and if so, whether the cooks give a ###### is questionable also. The cook might think, "what sort of farang is going to tell me how to cook?!"

C&C might say they don't use MSG, but I know the symptoms, and I felt them fully - the night after I ate there. Even if they say they don't use it, there certainly haven't been any chemical tests - but more tellingly, take a look within their kitchen at the many bottles and stuff - similar to any Asian kitchen, they'll likely have many bottles - most of which contain MSG. Some of those unrefrigerated bottles could be several years old. I have nothing specifically against C&C, indeed, they're probably a step above most decent restaurants in C.Rai in terms of ambiance and quality.

I do eat at home - often. I enjoy my cooking is better than any Asian restaurant, because I can actually taste the ingredients. In contrast, every Asian restaurant must first overcook once-natural ingredients (no thought for organic) - then smother whatever's left with copious herbs, spices, and sauces of varying degrees of putrefication. It's like taking a wood hammer handle and shellacing it with a dozen different veneers. Can you then feel the wood when you use the hammer?

I eat out when visitors come - and tell me, "oh, I love Thai food so much, let's go out and eat!"

[brahmburgers]

don't take my word for it, after all, I could just be a weirdo kook. Here are some American doctors' findings on MSG.

Commonly Reported Symptoms of MSG Toxicity

Based on books by Dr. Blaylock and Dr. Schwartz

www.msgmyth.com/symptoms.htm

Numbness or paralysis Mouth lesions, sores

Swelling of hands, feet, face Diarrhea

Mitral valve prolapse Nausea

Arrhythmias or paroxysmal atrial fibrillation (which can lead to stroke) Vomiting

Rise or drop in blood pressure (a fluctuation) Stomach cramps and gas

Tachycardia (rapid heartbeat) Irritable bowel, colitis, and/or constipation

Angina (pain in and around heart and ribs) Swelling of/or painful rectum

Heart palpitations (change in heart beat, or irregularities, such as atrial fibrillation) Spastic colon

Shuddering, shaking, chills Extreme thirst

Tendinitis and joint pain, TMJ Water retention and bloating (stomach swells)

Arthritic-like pain Muscle aches - legs, back, shoulders, neck Abdominal discomfort

Flu-like symptoms Asthma symptoms

Stiffness - jaw, muscles Shortness of breath

Heaviness of arms, legs Chest pain

Mental dullness Tightness of chest

Depression Runny nose and sneezing

Dizziness, light headedness Postnasal drip

Disorientation, mental confusion, bi-polar Bronchitis-like symptoms

Anxiety or panic attacks Hoarseness, sore throat

Hyperactivity, especially in children (A.D.H.D.) Chronic cough - sometimes a tickle cough

Attention Deficit Disorder (A.D.D.) Gagging reflex

Behavioral problems - delinquency, rage, and hostility Skin rash - hives, itching, rosacea-like reaction

Feelings of inebriation Mouth lesions, small waxy bits in throat, tonsils

Slurred speech Tingling numbness on face, ears, arms, legs, or feet

Balance problems Flushing, tingling, burning sensation in face or chest

Aching teeth Extreme dryness of mouth, "cotton mouth", or irritated tongue

Seizures, tremors Dark circles or bags under eyes, face swelling

Loss of memory Urological problems, nocturia, uncontrollable bladder or swelling of prostate

Lethargy Difficulty focusing

Sleeping disorders - insomnia or drowsiness (chronic fatigue) Pressure behind eyes

Migraine headaches - facial or temporal Eye symptoms - tired or burning eyes to blurry vision, optic neuritis Seeing shiny lights

Neurological diseases: ALS, Parkinson's, M.S. Burning sinuses, broken sinus capillaries

Prostate, infertility, thyroid problems Gastro esophgeal reflux

Ear problems - tinnitus or Meniere's Disease Cartilage, connective tissue damage

Gout-like condition (usually knees) Gall bladder or gall bladder like problems

Kidney pain - Loin Pain Hematuria Syndrome

Restless Leg Syndrome

- - - - - - - - - - -

another URL:

Here are a few examples of adverse reactions that have

been reported after ingesting MSG.

www.conqueranxiety.com/could_msg_sensitivity_affect_you.asp

-- Anxiety

-- Depression

-- Migraine headaches

-- Skin rash

-- Mood swings

-- Nausea

-- Cramps

-- Chest tension

-- Dizziness

-- Confusion

-- Heart palpitations or rapid heart rate

-- Flushing

-- Burning sensations

-- Sweating

-- Numbness

-- Excessive thirst

-- Difficulty concentrating

-- Lethargy or sleepiness

-- Seizures

-- Hyperactivity

-- Swelling

-- Changes in blood pressure

....the bottom line is, if you run a restaurant, and you use an ingredient that may be toxic to JUST A MINORITY of customers, maybe you should consider adjusting your condiments a bit.

[brahmburgers]

Even if a restaurant with an Asian cuisine says it doesn't use MSG, you can bet if you took a look at the many bottles and containers in the kitchen, you'd find ample supply of the stuff on hand - ready to add to unwitting customers' meals. Most people appear to not get adverse symtoms - hooray for you. However, there are a significant minority who do - and many of those don't even know when they've been poisoned. The bottom line is, if you run a restaurant, and you use an ingredient that may be toxic to JUST A MINORITY of customers, maybe you should consider adjusting your condiments a bit. There are no more excuses for using MSG! If a cook wants a hyper salty taste, he/she can do it with added salt (that can be hazardous too, but that's another topic). Remember the Asean summit a few years ago? Did you know that EVERY visiting diplomat, when asked whether he/she wanted MSG added to their meals, said 'NO THANKS.' I bet the royal family don't eat the stuff. If it's not good enough for our betters, than why use it on us peons? I've heard the stuff is shipped by the bargeload down the MaeKong to Thailand. I say, tell the Chinese to keep the stuff up there. They can eat it by the ladlefull for all I care, but don't poison me, thanks. I'm one of those oddballs who is sensitive to it, and I know every time when I've ingested it (it's yuksville). By the way, I doubt anyone at an Asian restaurant has EVER been asked beforehand whether they want MSG or not.

Commonly Reported Symptoms of MSG Toxicity

Based on books by Dr. Blaylock and Dr. Schwartz

www.msgmyth.com/symptoms.htm

Numbness or paralysis Mouth lesions, sores

Swelling of hands, feet, face Diarrhea

Mitral valve prolapse Nausea

Arrhythmias or paroxysmal atrial fibrillation (which can lead to stroke) Vomiting

Rise or drop in blood pressure (a fluctuation) Stomach cramps and gas

Tachycardia (rapid heartbeat) Irritable bowel, colitis, and/or constipation

Angina (pain in and around heart and ribs) Swelling of/or painful rectum

Heart palpitations (change in heart beat, or irregularities, such as atrial fibrillation) Spastic colon

Shuddering, shaking, chills Extreme thirst

Tendinitis and joint pain, TMJ Water retention and bloating (stomach swells)

Arthritic-like pain Muscle aches - legs, back, shoulders, neck Abdominal discomfort

Flu-like symptoms Asthma symptoms

Stiffness - jaw, muscles Shortness of breath

Heaviness of arms, legs Chest pain

Mental dullness Tightness of chest

Depression Runny nose and sneezing

Dizziness, light headedness Postnasal drip

Disorientation, mental confusion, bi-polar Bronchitis-like symptoms

Anxiety or panic attacks Hoarseness, sore throat

Hyperactivity, especially in children (A.D.H.D.) Chronic cough - sometimes a tickle cough

Attention Deficit Disorder (A.D.D.) Gagging reflex

Behavioral problems - delinquency, rage, and hostility Skin rash - hives, itching, rosacea-like reaction

Feelings of inebriation Mouth lesions, small waxy bits in throat, tonsils

Slurred speech Tingling numbness on face, ears, arms, legs, or feet

Balance problems Flushing, tingling, burning sensation in face or chest

Aching teeth Extreme dryness of mouth, "cotton mouth", or irritated tongue

Seizures, tremors Dark circles or bags under eyes, face swelling

Loss of memory Urological problems, nocturia, uncontrollable bladder or swelling of prostate

Lethargy Difficulty focusing

Sleeping disorders - insomnia or drowsiness (chronic fatigue) Pressure behind eyes

Migraine headaches - facial or temporal Eye symptoms - tired or burning eyes to blurry vision, optic neuritis Seeing shiny lights

Neurological diseases: ALS, Parkinson's, M.S. Burning sinuses, broken sinus capillaries

Prostate, infertility, thyroid problems Gastro esophgeal reflux

Ear problems - tinnitus or Meniere's Disease Cartilage, connective tissue damage

Gout-like condition (usually knees) Gall bladder or gall bladder like problems

Kidney pain - Loin Pain Hematuria Syndrome

Restless Leg Syndrome

- - - - - - - - - - -

another URL:

Here are a few examples of adverse reactions that have

been reported after ingesting MSG.

www.conqueranxiety.com/could_msg_sensitivity_affect_you.asp

-- Anxiety

-- Depression

-- Migraine headaches

-- Skin rash

-- Mood swings

-- Nausea

-- Cramps

-- Chest tension

-- Dizziness

-- Confusion

-- Heart palpitations or rapid heart rate

-- Flushing

-- Burning sensations

-- Sweating

-- Numbness

-- Excessive thirst

-- Difficulty concentrating

-- Lethargy or sleepiness

-- Seizures

-- Hyperactivity

-- Swelling

-- Changes in blood pressure

- - -- - -

[Thai-Spy]

Having just asked 10 Thais here not one knew what it was

ask about argee moto ( sp ) ..................

In Japanese, aji no moto.

[solo siam]

Glutomate is a naturally occurring compound, Your list of reactions is the standard list of reactions anyone can have to anything - just read any medicine leaflet. In regards to the toxicity, I'm pretty sure salt is just as if not more toxic.

You may be allergic to it or whatever, but not everyone is, just as not everyone is allergic to sugar or vinegar. I don't expect to get asked if I want sugar or vinegar in my food if its part of the ingredients, the onus is on you being the allergic one, rather than on the restaurant.

[jasreeve17]

I've heard from many sources that MSG is nasty stuff.

Both my father and missus have problems with swollen eyes and facial soreness after eating MSG. Usually, the problems last for two or three days.

I try to avoid products containg MSG, and suspect that we'd all be wise to do so.

[solo siam]

So you wont be eating cheese, tomatoes, corn, peas etc...

[brahmburgers]

For the guy who says 'glutomate is a naturally occurring compound' - let me first say we're talking about monosodium glutomate, not glutomate by itself. As for 'naturally occurring compound' - heck, there are millions of 'naturally occurring compounds' that are toxic - so where do you want to go with that? MSG results from a process. Some types of plastic come from processed tree cellulose - does that mean it's ok to eat plastic? Castor beans are natural, but I wouldn't recommend eating them.

The fact is that some of the people we know have adverse reactions to MSG. For the people who don't have adverse affects; congradulations - you're ok - great! For me and others it's toxic, and I seriously resent having toxic substances put in my food.

In California, I had property with lots of poison oak. I could pull the stuff out by the roots and not get affected. However, I had friends who were very sensitive to its toxicitiy. Because I was immune, should I have rubbed my poison oak stained hands on their faces while saying, "don't be a pantywaist - it's no problem for me!" Of course not. But that's the type of response I get from some respondents to this post - who appear to say, "I don't have a problem with MSG, so to those who say they do; quit bellyaching - and toughen up!"

The succint point here is: if people running restaurants know that a % (however small) have serious adverse affects to one of their spices, then they should have the decency to stop using the stuff. Using MSG is not an necessity. It's basically a cheapo hyper salty additive.

= = = = = = =

So you wont be eating cheese, tomatoes, corn, peas etc...

I'm talking about processed ingredient called monosodium glutimate. I eat all you mention but cheese. Indeed, tomatoes from my garden are organic and much tastier than any I can get at a market.

[solo siam]

"Technically, glutamate is the salt of glutamic acid. Monosodium glutamate and monopotassium glutamate are salts of glutamic acid."

"Glutamine MSG is a sodium salt of glutamic acid, one of the most common amino acids (protein building blocks) found in nature. As glutamate, it is present in virtually all foods. Glutamate is found naturally in foods such as tomatoes, mushrooms, broccoli, peas, cheese, meats, fish, even human milk (20 times more than cow's milk), Tomatoes etc...

Made from natural products

MSG is produced by a fermentation process similar to that used in making beer, wine, yoghurt or vinegar. It is produced from natural products such as sugar cane molasses or tapioca.

There is no difference between glutamate found in natural foods and that added as MSG. "

Some poeple are allergic to peanuts, chocolate, honey, wheat, beer etc.... should restaurants instantly stop serving those ingredients?

If you have an adverse reaction to a normal foodstuff, then its up to you to guard against it, strange that I've never met a Thai who is "allergic" to MSG!

Some are just allergic to fermented products, thats fine, they should stay away from them - doesn't mean I should!

[solo siam]

"In California, I had property with lots of poison oak. I could pull the stuff out by the roots and not get affected. However, I had friends who were very sensitive to its toxicitiy. Because I was immune, should I have rubbed my poison oak stained hands on their faces while saying, "don't be a pantywaist - it's no problem for me!" Of course not. But that's the type of response I get from some respondents to this post - who appear to say, "I don't have a problem with MSG, so to those who say they do; quit bellyaching - and toughen up!"

but here you are in the minority, most people can handle a small amount of a naturally occurring substance, it seems you have problems there vs the massive majority that don't. again, salt is toxic - especially so, do you want to also ban every restaurant in the world from using Salt? get a grip, if its that much of a problem, take a packed lunch out with you!

[sabaijai]

Suggest you search this subforum for 'MSG' on 'glutamate' and you'll find a couple of other long threads on the topic.

Here are a few.

From what I've been able to find out, every controlled double-blind study of MSG food sensitivity has shown that folks who claim sensitivity can't distinguish between foods containing MSG and those containing a placebo, in terms of professed reactions. In other words the proposed effects of the so-called 'Chinese restaurant syndrome' don't have a positive correlation with the stuff.

[jasreeve17]

If peanuts gave me a bad reaction, then I wouldn't eat them.

If salt gave me a bad reaction, I wouldn't eat that either.

Sea water does give me a bad reaction, so I don't drink that.

Because glutamate is natural doesn't mean a thing. Many poisons are natural. When a cobra bites me, then I'm likely to die... it's natural.

MSG was developed by a Japanese chemist in 1907 (that's not too natural), although glutamate is indeed very naturally occuring (means nothing in itself, many things that might be bad for me are naturally occuring) a chemical process is used to make the monosodium varient - which isn't naturally occuring, and is used as a simple flavour enhancer.

I've never noticed any adverse effects of MSG myself, but two close family members have a very bad reaction to it. I don't know of any other food that they react to badly.

Thus, they have to avoid MSG, and I try to too.

[solo siam]

MSG is made as I stated above, by fermenting sugar cane etc...

Cobra poison isn't present in peas, mushrooms, cheese etc... or any food. I'm sure it was only recently that other chemical compounds were isolated from foodstuffs as well (lyopene in tomatoe sauce for example). That doesn't make them instantly poisonous.

Besides who knows whether the chef uses sea salt?

You are panicking without ever having felt any sort of reaction yourself - If you are allergic to MSG, Sorry, but more people are dangerously allergic to other foosdtuffs than MSG, For example peanuts kill more people than heroin does!

[realthaideal]

"You may be allergic to it or whatever, but not everyone is, just as not everyone is allergic to sugar or vinegar. I don't expect to get asked if I want sugar or vinegar in my food if its part of the ingredients, the onus is on you being the allergic one, rather than on the restaurant."

Ben is right, dude. Hear you go banging your drum again. I'm all for natural food here, and food made to your liking - but why do I sense you'd have a complaint no matter what country or city you set up shop in ?? There are a couple ways to make sure you get the food the way you like without having to rant on and on about it all the time.*** Make it yer dang self or GO EAT AT THE HOSPITAL !! *** I think those pumpkin juice nose drips are sugar and salt free. Certainly MSG free. YOu'd get all you need and wouldn't have to keep harping on and on, trying to tell Thai people not to make Thai food THEIR WAY.

[realthaideal]

"The succint point here is: if people running restaurants know that a % (however small) have serious adverse affects to one of their spices, then they should have the decency to stop using the stuff. Using MSG is not an necessity. It's basically a cheapo hyper salty additive."

Actually the point here is concensus that you need to calm down and be vigilant in your own efforts to avoid the stuff. THat's one clear point. Muslims who eat Halal, and Jews who eat Kosher, and those who know they die if they eat peanuts....ALL MAKE HYPER-VIGILANT EFFORTS TO AVOID WHAT THEY SHOUD NOT/ CANNOT/ WILL NOT EAT. YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME , DUDE. DO THE SAME.

I think your Thai name should be "Ai Bon."

Here's the root of your deal... stop preaching to us, the choir, we can't change all the Thai people. Perhaps you write a well thought out editorial to BKK Post or try to contact the Thai Ministry that certifies restaurants with the happy green pea sign _ "Clean Food, Good Taste." Your issue is the kind of thing that involves education to potential customer sensitivity and then actually caring to be careful when preparing dishes for them. Great. Go get that issue raised with people who can do something about it, and quit moaning about it here. I'm certainly not the guy cooking your food on the corner. I understand, but enough trying to get a possee of people who agree with you. WHat's your point, Ai Bon ?

[brahmburgers]

if I had an adverse response to peanuts, I wouldn't order peanuts in a restaurant. However, I do get tangible adverse affects from MSG - it's been proven a thousand times. The difference between peanuts and MSG is that peanuts are a stand-alone item, or they're usually mentioned as an ingredient in a restaurant dish - plus they're visible (unless it's peanut sauce, etc). MSG, on the other hand, is not visible and it's NEVER mentioned on a menu.

As for naturalness, there are plenty of compounds derived from nature that become toxic when processed. MSG is derived from a process. It is different than the glutamate (that might be found) in organic molecules within whole foods.

MSG is not a necessary ingredient. At the very least, restaurants should have the courtesy of mentioning MSG on their menus.

As for the silly factoid that 'Thais never have adverse affects to MSG.' Let me ask you this; do Thai people ever get irritable? Do they ever have trouble sleeping due dry mouth, racing pulse and violent dreams? Do they get headaches? Of course they do - very often. I'm not saying all those things are the result of MSG, but it could very well be likely that their copious consumption of MSG could contribute to those symptoms some of the time.

[solo siam]

As for the silly factoid that 'Thais never have adverse affects to MSG.' Let me ask you this; do Thai people ever get irritable? Do they ever have trouble sleeping due dry mouth, racing pulse and violent dreams? Do they get headaches? Of course they do - very often. I'm not saying all those things are the result of MSG, but it could very well be likely that their copious consumption of MSG could contribute to those symptoms some of the time.

No I have never witnessed those reactions in a Thai from MSG, and if there were Thais who had that reaction then they would do one simple thing. NOT EAT IT

Rather than trying to change the world to suit them better, they would adapt. The people allergic to MSG has to be a miniscule percent, and its probably mostly in their minds as proved in tests, dont eat out at Asian restaurants if its that much of a problem, or stick to fried rice etc...

At the end of the day its your problem, not ours - and I'd like the food left the way it is thanks.

[brahmburgers]

Ben@H3-Digital says; "No I have never witnessed those reactions in a Thai from MSG, and if there were Thais who had that reaction then they would do one simple thing. NOT EAT IT"

My question was whether Thais ever get irritable, or insomnia, or headaches. My question didn't ask whether the reader knew those affects were attributed to ingesting MSG.

Using Ben@H3-Digital's logic, if Thais knew that drunk driving was harmful, then they wouldn't do it.

Fact is, Thais and farang do many harmful things to themselves and to other people. As often as not, they're not aware of it - or even if they are aware, they often don't give a hoot. Smoking tobacco and drinking whiskey are just two examples. Everyone who does it knows (or should know) it's harmful to themselves and others, but they still do it.

The point I'm stressing is that MSG is insiduously and copiously applied to food in Asian restaurants with nary a mention. ....and it's blatantly toxic to some of their customers - whether they (the management or customers) know it or not.

As for writing to newspapers or health authorities: I do that, thanks. I choose to mention this MSG menace here in Thaivisa because it's an open forum and, to some degree educational, and I welcome the varying opinions.

[toybits]

The symptioms you mentioned can also be caused by hypertension. Perhaps the beautiful waitresses might have done the job which you ascribe to MSG?

I usually tell the waiter at the start of ordering: 'mai aow pom churot' (I don't want MSG). I recently went to Cabbages and Condoms restaurant and, because they cater to many farang, I didn't mention it. I should mention that I'm sensitive to MSG. Symptoms: violent dreams, dry mouth, fast/weak pulse, headache, insomnia, general uneasiness. If you don't get any affects, great! ...but some of us do. Indeed, some people have died from overdose of MSG (two elder guys in NYC went to a restaurant which had unwittingly put MSG in the salt shakers - R.I.P.) ....to name just one isolated incident from years ago.

[Donno]

I had a cup of coffee and spooned in what I thought was sugar. When I tasted it, it tasted like strong beef stock, I couldn't drink it. I asked my wife what it was and she said MSG. I told her that I didn't want MSG in my food and she said it was only going into her food. Sure!

[sabaijai]

MSG is not a salt substitute, but rather has a flavour all its own. Like salt and sugar it's an extract from natural foods (beets, sugarcane or seaweed, typically, not a chemical additive as some would suggest. It has been used as a natural flavouring in Asia for at least a thousand years.

Allergists can only say this much, that some people self-report reactions to MSG. MSG sensitivity has never registered a positive correlation in any published scientific study. It may be be a form of hysteria related to obsessive-compulsive disorder/food phobias.