Friendship Between Thai And Western Women - Experiences?

[kat]

This is something that is important for a lot of people in Thailand, and especially women! For many if not most Western women, female friendship is very important. I would say that is true for all women, but that would be too general, because culture defines so many of the conditions of what is considered proper, normal, and even desirable. In a foreign country that is very male defined, that can exacerbate the experience of isolation for many foreign women.

How did you overcome this, or not?

I'd like to trade our experiences and observations about friendship between foreign women and Thai women in LOS. It would be interesting to hear it from all angles, including the Thai angle, the positive, the negative, the neutral. I'd just like to hear about our experiences, and collectivize them.

How has your experience of friendship been defined in LOS as a Western woman, or as a Thai woman with Western female friends?

[seonai]

I have to say to start with that one of my most uncomfortable experiences while trying to be friends with Thai women was while working for the UN in Bkk. I couldn't keep up with their smart clothing and fancy cars and I always felt they looked down on me, in fact I am sure they did. They would go out at lunch break and come back with bags of clothes from really expensive shops, I wanted to join in when they showed their clothes off but I didn't have as much cash to spend on clothes so I was left out. They were outrightly nasty and sniggering at me. Also their style was way different from mine. Instead, in that particular office, myself and an Indian woman became close as we were sort of the underdogs

When I got married, I took in cake and stuff as is Thai style and I felt the need to buy a really expensive one that would meet their expectations. When my son was born they had a 'shower' for him and bought me expensive gold items for him. It's just that particular 'group' of Thai women though, don't know if it's possible to classify them. All been to Uni now working as secretaries at UN agencies. The Thai women officers in the same office were wonderful, no problem at all and really friendly.

Do you think the women who were secretaries felt 'underdogish' so they took it out on sensitive people like me?

[kat]

I think there are different versions of the Underdog mentality. I think in this case, maybe they felt more comfortable taking it out on you because you were outside of their hierarchy.

It's funny you should mention a story about the UN. You just reminded me of one of my first bewildering experiences with attempted Thai female friendships. I was newly arrived in Bangkok, just under a few months. I got tapped by a couple of different NGOs to start work on migration, displacement, and refugees. Upon starting a new project, the NGO sent me to a UN partner so that I could get trained up on a technical application we would be using. I was fresh out of grad school, but had many previous life and work experiences, so was hardly a kid. I was just new to this technical field, and within the scope of that short period was being "trained."

There was a really interesting Thai woman in the UN office where I was being trained on the tech stuff for several weeks. She was about my age, had lived in NY, seemed really hip and smart, and I had met her previously at a forum, where I presented material and was an active discussant. She seemed very receptive to me there, and gave me her card. So of course, when I was sent to her office to be trained up by other staff on technical applications, I was very happy to be working in the same office as this intellectual Thai woman who had lived in NYC. I would stop to talk to her occasionally in the office, but we were all busy, so I just chalked up her different attitude to work. I was always inviting her to lunch, and had gone out with a group of other Thai officers from the division.

Well, I ran into her one day in the street near the office, and she seemed to look horrified that I might walk down the street with her. That was one of my most jarring first exposures to culture clash in Thailand, and it threw me for a loop. After that, I bumped into her at the movies and stuff with her partner (she was a lesbian), and she had coffee with me one time at a cafe after that, but it was always this weird feeling, like she was just listening to me but never talking.

I finally figured out that it was a status thing, and during the times that she was friendly, it wasn't as a peer. That really horrified me, because with Westerners my status wouldn't have been viewed so rigidly, based on my education and experience, but there you go. It was one of my several very jarring first experiences there.

[rainx]

I met some Western friends when I was living in the West. They taught me slang and swear words, and I helped them with their math homework. We went trick or treating, went cruising (and wasted a lot of gas), went to football games and parties, talked about boys, parents, sibling rivalry, and school, and did all those silly things adolescents do. Such fond memories. In early adulthood I had Western friends who shared common interests, who could hold interesting discussions as well as silly discussions for hours. Although in Thailand I have a couple of Thai friends with whom I can connect at a deep level, they are few in number. It seems that in Thai culture people tend to avoid talking about feelings or ‘controversial’ issues, and having grown up in two cultures, I will always have some issues, ideas, whatever, to which a typical Thai or a typical Westerner cannot relate.

I keep in touch with only a handful of friends I met in the West. After a while, I began to feel that we are worlds apart. If they were to be able to relate to what goes on in my life, they would have to understand quite a bit about how things work in Thailand. They don’t understand why nobody does anything about stray cats and dogs and rabies. They tell you that if men sexually harass you at work, you should file a lawsuit. They tell you that if somebody is stalking on your friend, your friend should go to the police, etc. I figure they would not want to hear about the negative things that they would not be able to do anything about anyway so I tend to share only the things to which they can relate and confide the darker matters to my narrow (but cool) circle of Thai friends, some of whom are going through similar problems. It truly amazes me how some people can deal with life’s challenges with such great sense of humor.

I would not mind getting to know some Western females in Thailand who are interested in getting to know Thai people, but very few Western females work where I work, and the ones who do never extend the interactions beyond small talks. I can’t blame them. They probably assume that I am a typical mind-numbingly boring Thai woman with absolutely no life. Well, maybe they are right that I am dull

Friendship has its dynamics. Sometimes life’s circumstances dictate different kinds of friendship/relationship you can have with different individuals. Some people find the segregation sad, but I am happy recalling the good memories.

In response to Seonai's post: I have worked with a number of ‘hi-so’ Thai women who are into ridiculously expensive name brands and tell me I should get rid of my 199-baht clothes. They may fail to appreciate natural or inner beauty, but to give them the benefit of the doubt, I assume their intention is to make me look more attractive, not to make me feel inferior. (Why should a person feel inferior for spending money on practical things?) Nonetheless, going shopping, talking about designers and restaurants, and going to fitness centers bore me to tears so I gravitate to other down-to-earth Thais.

[rainx]

I finally figured out that it was a status thing, and during the times that she was friendly, it wasn't as a peer. That really horrified me, because with Westerners my status wouldn't have been viewed so rigidly, based on my education and experience, but there you go. It was one of my several very jarring first experiences there.

I do not understand what you meant by this. Did she/they think your status was high or low?

[seonai]

Funninly eough Kat I have never in my life encountered so many bitchy women as I did under the UN roofs in Bkk Not all Thai but a lot on nasty, bitter people - I thought it was going to be a really cool place to work but the only friends I made there were older Thai officers and senior Western officers or the cleaners

I don't dress badly and I was always polite but one big shot pulled me aside one day and told me if I wanted to get on in my career I'd have to buy some suits !!!!! I don't buy into that at all

[kat]

I finally figured out that it was a status thing, and during the times that she was friendly, it wasn't as a peer. That really horrified me, because with Westerners my status wouldn't have been viewed so rigidly, based on my education and experience, but there you go. It was one of my several very jarring first experiences there.

I do not understand what you meant by this. Did she/they think your status was high or low?

Well, that's my point: in one situation I was fine to talk to, and she even told me she admired my presentation, but then in the second instance I was suddenly "lower" than her. This threw me for a loop because things are not as rigid among friends in the West.

[kat]

Funninly eough Kat I have never in my life encountered so many bitchy women as I did under the UN roofs in Bkk Not all Thai but a lot on nasty, bitter people - I thought it was going to be a really cool place to work but the only friends I made there were older Thai officers and senior Western officers or the cleaners

I don't dress badly and I was always polite but one big shot pulled me aside one day and told me if I wanted to get on in my career I'd have to buy some suits !!!!! I don't buy into that at all

Yeah, among other things. I was glad to leave the UN consultant jobs.

[kat]

I keep in touch with only a handful of friends I met in the West. After a while, I began to feel that we are worlds apart. If they were to be able to relate to what goes on in my life, they would have to understand quite a bit about how things work in Thailand. They don’t understand why nobody does anything about stray cats and dogs and rabies. They tell you that if men sexually harass you at work, you should file a lawsuit. They tell you that if somebody is stalking on your friend, your friend should go to the police, etc. I figure they would not want to hear about the negative things that they would not be able to do anything about anyway so I tend to share only the things to which they can relate and confide the darker matters to my narrow (but cool) circle of Thai friends, some of whom are going through similar problems. It truly amazes me how some people can deal with life’s challenges with such great sense of humor.

I would not mind getting to know some Western females in Thailand who are interested in getting to know Thai people, but very few Western females work where I work, and the ones who do never extend the interactions beyond small talks. I can’t blame them. They probably assume that I am a typical mind-numbingly boring Thai woman with absolutely no life. Well, maybe they are right that I am dull

Well, during my first couple of years there, I would've loved to find female friends like you, but it didn't happen. I found one promising person in the same UN office (another woman who trained me on the tech application), but I found it hard to maintain consistent contact with the cool Thai women I did find.

Oh well.

[Misty]

After a while, I began to feel that we are worlds apart. If they were to be able to relate to what goes on in my life, they would have to understand quite a bit about how things work in Thailand. They don’t understand why nobody does anything about stray cats and dogs and rabies. They tell you that if men sexually harass you at work, you should file a lawsuit. They tell you that if somebody is stalking on your friend, your friend should go to the police, etc.

Hi Rainx,

I sometimes feel this way about some people, although I'm not Thai. Definitely have run across some of the viewpoints you mention!

Lucky for me, the Thai women that I've worked with have been lovely people. No hi-sos that I knew of--mostly well-educated, intelligent women who are trying to earn a living doing something that interested them. That might be a function of the particular industry--someone with a hi-so background might not be attracted to it.

To overcome a feeling of being worlds apart (where possible!) I try to focus on similarities between people--whether it's east & west, men & women, different races, different countries, different hometowns, etc.

The differences between people are superficial, albeit easy to spot (witness some threads on TV!). But once you work out the context of someone's position, their view starts to make some sense.

When I'm worlds apart, I try to ask myself, if I were (truly) in their shoes, would I think any differently? Can I explain my own view so they can understand it? (This second part is not always easy, and sometimes I don't try.)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's the search for the common factors that make us human that's interesting to me.

Cheers, Misty

[Swelters]

I'm a guy but this interesting topic reminds me of living in Thaitown which is a part of LA about 30 percent Thai and 30 percent Armenian immigrants both with close family-oriented societies. One day I got to talking with an Armenian shopkeeper, long time in business, who was located in a little block of stores that inlcuded several Thai businesses. He was talking about religion and I said have you ever looked into Buddhism, very interesting, might appeal to you.

"What that, Buddhism, who believe that?"

"Well, it's the religion of the Thai people here."

"What people is that?"

"You know, all the people in this neighborhood, they come from Asia, look a little like Chinese people, come from Thailand, in Asia, they are Thai people, speak like 'neung sorng sam si hah', not english, you know?"

"No. I not know these people."

[kat]

After a while, I began to feel that we are worlds apart. If they were to be able to relate to what goes on in my life, they would have to understand quite a bit about how things work in Thailand. They don’t understand why nobody does anything about stray cats and dogs and rabies. They tell you that if men sexually harass you at work, you should file a lawsuit. They tell you that if somebody is stalking on your friend, your friend should go to the police, etc.

Hi Rainx,

I sometimes feel this way about some people, although I'm not Thai. Definitely have run across some of the viewpoints you mention!

Lucky for me, the Thai women that I've worked with have been lovely people. No hi-sos that I knew of--mostly well-educated, intelligent women who are trying to earn a living doing something that interested them. That might be a function of the particular industry--someone with a hi-so background might not be attracted to it.

To overcome a feeling of being worlds apart (where possible!) I try to focus on similarities between people--whether it's east & west, men & women, different races, different countries, different hometowns, etc.

The differences between people are superficial, albeit easy to spot (witness some threads on TV!). But once you work out the context of someone's position, their view starts to make some sense.

When I'm worlds apart, I try to ask myself, if I were (truly) in their shoes, would I think any differently? Can I explain my own view so they can understand it? (This second part is not always easy, and sometimes I don't try.)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's the search for the common factors that make us human that's interesting to me.

Cheers, Misty

I take a slightly different view. Of course, commonality is always important and what makes us human, but our differences make us human as well. I think it's rather easy and comfortable to highlight the similarities, and that's why it's always a start. But it takes a lot of effort to understand our differences, and when someone can cross that bridge and leave their comfort zone to do so, that is much more significant for me than making us all the same.

[Misty]

I take a slightly different view. Of course, commonality is always important and what makes us human, but our differences make us human as well. I think it's rather easy and comfortable to highlight the similarities, and that's why it's always a start. But it takes a lot of effort to understand our differences, and when someone can cross that bridge and leave their comfort zone to do so, that is much more significant for me than making us all the same.

Believe it or not, that is my point. To understand the differences, to cross the bridge, takes finding the level of commonality. That's the hard part. So much easier to just argue over the differences.

[kat]

Really? You think that's the easy part? *As most ethnic minorities in your country or from other countries could tell you, differences are most definitely not superficial. I can tell you as a multi-heritage, mixed-race person, that is usually the area where many people squirm away from. I think basic commonalities are a good starting point: I'm single and a student, so are you, I have a family, so do you, etc. But, I think the real work of building understanding is when we can start to understand the differences in a meaningful way, and build respect and relationships because of them and in spite of them. I think there is a danger in trying to paint everyone over to be the same, just so that some people can maintain their comfort level. It doesn't really enable you to discover who people are, or get really close. That's what I can relate to in the statement of rainx, as an ethnic minority in my own country as well.

But hey, it sounds like we mostly agree anyway. It's just a different style, but all have their place.

*edit - added.

Edited November 18, 2007 by kat

[Misty]

Really? You think that's the easy part? *As most ethnic minorities in your country or from other countries could tell you, differences are most definitely not superficial. I can tell you as a multi-heritage, mixed-race person, that is usually the area where many people squirm away from. I think basic commonalities are a good starting point: I'm single and a student, so are you, I have a family, so do you, etc. But, I think the real work of building understanding is when we can start to understand the differences in a meaningful way, and build respect and relationships because of them and in spite of them. I think there is a danger in trying to paint everyone over to be the same, just so that some people can maintain their comfort level. It doesn't really enable you to discover who people are, or get really close. That's what I can relate to in the statement of rainx, as an ethnic minority in my own country as well.

But hey, it sounds like we mostly agree anyway. It's just a different style, but all have their place.

*edit - added.

Hi Kat,

Yes, it's very easy to argue. Two people from different worlds meet. They have a difference in opinion, or shall we say, an out and out argument. It's easy to argue. But at the end of the argument, do the two people understand each other? Have they reached any common ground? Not if they focus on their differences. The hard part is for those same two people to put themselves in the others' shoes, figure out where the other person is coming from, and understand the other person's point of view. To do so requires recognizing some basic values that are the same between them. Figuring out at what point, after weeding through all the superficial differences, those people have some similar basic views, needs, or opinions.

That process I find interesting and even enjoyable. But not the arguing about our differences part.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, but in a different way?

Cheers, Misty

[little_muppet]

very interesting topic, i am thai purely thai, i also have had problem with thai women,it is difficult to be friends with them esp with those hi-sos women, because im not hi-so at all , when they talk about the newest shop in town i always out of idea... . honestly i got more male friends than female friends. i have to accept that Bangkok ladies are difficult to be friend with, everything is not easy with them....

now im getting older (not that old but feel old already) and i feel sorry to my boyfriend that he has to live with an almost alike tomboy lol, so i am also looking for more female friends in bangkok to hang out with ,play sport or share cooking tips with , if anyone want to be my friends i dont care you are thai or farang lady just if we can talk and understand each other and happy with our simply life why not?

drop me a line and be my friend.... ( right now i got my dogs as my best friends )

[kat]

Hi little_muppet:

You sound like really great company, but I am now back in the United States. If I was still in Thailand I would definitely want to meet you. What kind of dogs do you have?

Kat

[little_muppet]

Hi little_muppet:

You sound like really great company, but I am now back in the United States. If I was still in Thailand I would definitely want to meet you. What kind of dogs do you have?

Kat

thanks Kat, my mates are telling im not like other thai girls (well i donno how but they said so) anyway,i got 3 dogs here

2 great danes her and his name are "bonnie and Clyde" , and 1 little Husky her name is Emma . they are good well-trained dogs but they donnno how to speak back when i speak to them yet....

little_muppet

[Queenie]

very interesting topic, i am thai purely thai, i also have had problem with thai women,it is difficult to be friends with them esp with those hi-sos women, because im not hi-so at all , when they talk about the newest shop in town i always out of idea... . honestly i got more male friends than female friends. i have to accept that Bangkok ladies are difficult to be friend with, everything is not easy with them....

now im getting older (not that old but feel old already) and i feel sorry to my boyfriend that he has to live with an almost alike tomboy lol, so i am also looking for more female friends in bangkok to hang out with ,play sport or share cooking tips with , if anyone want to be my friends i dont care you are thai or farang lady just if we can talk and understand each other and happy with our simply life why not?

drop me a line and be my friend.... ( right now i got my dogs as my best friends )

Dear Little Muppet,

I understand what you meant totally. I am Thai who is in almost the same situation with you, not many Thai friends both women and men. My best friend here in Bangkok now is American which we have known each other for 8 years.

This issues about hi-sos women are just something supeficial in their mind. Most of them think they are above other. I thought that they would do these to only Thai women :-( I feel sorry for Kat that she had to face these kind of things. Well, from what I heard Thai women who works for UN or most of the embassy, think alike. They have foreign ancestor and the longer they work the more they became farung...

[little_muppet]

haha good!! im not alone...

than be my friends......

[kat]

Thanks you guys. Too bad we couldn't meet when I was there.

[teacup]

I’m a thai also and have found that I can get along and have more things in common with my american friends than my thai friends. When I was studying in the US, all of my friends’re either american, or westernized Asians only.

I think it has to do with my free-spirit personality and ranges of topic interest that I have found most thai girls (the one I have met so far) to be just a bit superficial to me. In my opinion I have found that most thai girls to be….

Too boring, too girly, try to act tooo cutely “all the times”, obsession with anything in pink!, like to talk about Thailand, thai foods or gossip about who have what, too worry about the skin getting dark or what you look like in the eyes of others too much, and oh all the stuff animals on their bed and in their room are driving me crazy!

Doesn’t matter hi-so or lo-so, they have quite limited range of topic you can converse with them about and they just absolutely love to talk about makeup, clothes, money and hope that someday they will marry a rich guy (money first, and love second), but rarely you will hear them talking about their self-goal or any achievements they might attain for themselves.

Just my opinion

[seonai]

Welcome Little Muppet, Queenie and Teacup - how wonderful to have a few more Thai women here on Thai Visa... please, please keep posting and I am sure you will meet some cool people. We need thai women to add to this and many other conversations on TV. Sawasdee Kha took khon

[teacup]

Thanks Seonai,

I like to chime in here from time to time and think it’s so cool that we have a forum that isn’t overrun with adolescent boys venting their teenage angst of "why does my girlfriend expect me to do dishes AND pay at the restaurant too??"

[kat]

Yeah, it's great to have all of you guys here. And rainx as well - I wish she would come back. Tell me ladies, why do you think it's so hard for us to meet each other in Thailand? I have always felt that Thailand is a bit of a tough place for women: the Western women are verbally and figuratively spat upon daily by Western men, Many of the Thai men that we meet see us in limited capacities, and Thai women are either vilified or unrealistically put upon a pedestal. And as women, we are all in the middle of this, and now I hear that some of you also have your difficulties with some Thai women as well.

Why do you think it's so much harder for like-minded Western and Thai women to find each other in Thailand?

[seonai]

Queenie, Kat , Teacup. Rainx, Little Muppet I totally want to welcome you all and hope that maybe we can start a new thread maybe as 'Thai women This is your Place To chat with Farang Females' - (I will try it now - not meaning to hijack Kat's thread but just trying to start something new

[little_muppet]

aha thats kool reply of you teacup i absolutely agree with u 100 percent!!! u r right saying most thai women r have limited of topic or general knowledge becsuse in thair RAM space is full of themself fashion and money.

for Kat, this is my opinion, it is because of how thai ppl be treated by their family, western ppl not only women are concern about things in the future,evironments or being a geek which they find it fun and internesting

but for thai ppl, if nothing about them they wont care or they dont want to waste their time about it.;so this is why they have such a limited general knowledge to talk to follow up conversations.. once if u try to talk to them about fashion they r expert and they can talk all night long.

both dont have the same interested thing to talk abuot so it difficult.... ( Urghhhh i lost my english... talk with dogs too much and forgot english...) hahahha

[Boo]

IMO a specific thread isn't needed, if we are to be a totally integrated forum & want to encourage more thai women (& women in general) to post then we need to avoid segregating on the basis of nationality. If any women wants to know more about what a women of differing nationality views on something then she can start her own thread about it.

[kat]

aha thats kool reply of you teacup i absolutely agree with u 100 percent!!! u r right saying most thai women r have limited of topic or general knowledge becsuse in thair RAM space is full of themself fashion and money.

for Kat, this is my opinion, it is because of how thai ppl be treated by their family, western ppl not only women are concern about things in the future,evironments or being a geek which they find it fun and internesting

but for thai ppl, if nothing about them they wont care or they dont want to waste their time about it.;so this is why they have such a limited general knowledge to talk to follow up conversations.. once if u try to talk to them about fashion they r expert and they can talk all night long.

both dont have the same interested thing to talk abuot so it difficult.... ( Urghhhh i lost my english... talk with dogs too much and forgot english...) hahahha

Yes, that was my thought, as well little_muppet. Every society has their version of shallow people, but in traditional societies there is much less diversity or choice among people. I think that is precisely because of the dominant role the family plays, which has good and bad aspects, but in societies where adults are beholden to their parents their entire lives, it becomes all the more harder to become an individual as in the West. There, it is natural and even seen as "normal" that at some point the younger generation "break away" from the older generation. It is even seen as healthy, and evolutionary (progress or moving forward) in a way.

*However, I have to say, that there are some beneficial aspects of the traditional model as well. In a society with very little social welfare nets, I can see how it serves society. In the United States, we have neither the traditional aspects or the social, safety networks anymore.

But, that is a bit off topic.

Edited December 2, 2007 by kat

[kat]

very interesting topic, i am thai purely thai, i also have had problem with thai women,it is difficult to be friends with them esp with those hi-sos women, because im not hi-so at all , when they talk about the newest shop in town i always out of idea... . honestly i got more male friends than female friends. i have to accept that Bangkok ladies are difficult to be friend with, everything is not easy with them....

now im getting older (not that old but feel old already) and i feel sorry to my boyfriend that he has to live with an almost alike tomboy lol, so i am also looking for more female friends in bangkok to hang out with ,play sport or share cooking tips with , if anyone want to be my friends i dont care you are thai or farang lady just if we can talk and understand each other and happy with our simply life why not?

drop me a line and be my friend.... ( right now i got my dogs as my best friends )

Dear Little Muppet,

I understand what you meant totally. I am Thai who is in almost the same situation with you, not many Thai friends both women and men. My best friend here in Bangkok now is American which we have known each other for 8 years.

This issues about hi-sos women are just something supeficial in their mind. Most of them think they are above other. I thought that they would do these to only Thai women :-( I feel sorry for Kat that she had to face these kind of things. Well, from what I heard Thai women who works for UN or most of the embassy, think alike. They have foreign ancestor and the longer they work the more they became farung...

Queenie, I have a sincere question for you regarding your comment above (in bold). You said some of these hi-so type Thai women become more like farang the longer they work. But, I have a different impression of what that means. For me, it was jolting to be rejected by a Thai woman on the basis of what I saw as a temporary placement in life. I feel that other commonalities such as my education and thinking would've mattered more to Western women in that office, and in actual fact did. So, for me, the rejection I experienced with the Thai woman was not at all like Western foreign women at all.

So, I'm curious about what you mean when you say they become more like farang. What does that mean to you?