Elephant Rides- Cruelty?

[galwaygirl]

Hi everyone,

I'l be in thailand this summer and a great deal of my time will be spent in Chiang Mai. Since i was a kid i have always loved elephants but i have never got to see one upclose.

when i first started researching my stay in thailand i noticed alot of elephant rides and tours ect. I also came across some worrying pieces about the cruelty against elephants.

I've always wanted to have a ride on a elephant but now im not sure. is there anywhere in chiang mai where you can get a ride on an elephant without the cruelty? Or is this impossible?

any info would be of great help.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Hi everyone,

I'l be in thailand this summer and a great deal of my time will be spent in Chiang Mai. Since i was a kid i have always loved elephants but i have never got to see one upclose.

when i first started researching my stay in thailand i noticed alot of elephant rides and tours ect. I also came across some worrying pieces about the cruelty against elephants.

I've always wanted to have a ride on a elephant but now im not sure. is there anywhere in chiang mai where you can get a ride on an elephant without the cruelty? Or is this impossible?

any info would be of great help.

sure no problem. there are a number of Elephant sanctuaries not to far from Chiang Mai. Elephant Nature Park is like 30 km north of CM and you can be a paid guest volunteer for a week or whatever stay there and help take care of the elephants. Their goals are to take care of the elephants and educate the public about the abuses and cruelty. You can ride them around also.

There is another large one to the south of city that is well thought of but I don't know the details. I would just inquire to tour operators about "Sanctuaries" and try a few day trips to find the one you like the most.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants. Cruel is bring them into the city and making them beg.

[Austhaied]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants. Cruel is bring them into the city and making them beg.

Exactly.

If riding elephants is cruel what about the poor old horse, camel, donkey, llama, yak, giraffe and emus.

I think they would be far better off taking tourists for joy rides than lugging timber through the jungle, as in the past...

[Galong]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants. Cruel is bring them into the city and making them beg.

The way elephants are taught to accept people riding on their back is by beating them and thus killing their spirit.

If you really care about the elephants, first make a visit to one of the few elephant centers who don't do elephant shows or treks like the Elephant Nature Park north from Chiang Mai (Click here), and only afterwards make up your own mind about doing an elephant trek or not.

There's more info on the National Geographic news site. Click here.

This information is not meant to sound like Thais are exceptionally cruel to all animals. Intentional cruelty to animals is a sure indication of sociopathic behavior no matter what the race or nationality of the perpetrator.

I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is the method used in Thailand (perhaps not by everyone) to 'train' the elephants is beating them, sleep deprevation and other nasty acts. From what I've personally witnessed, this appears to be used in Phuket at least. From what I read online, this appears to be the method most often applied.

What would happen if no one rides them?

Well, they could be retired to one of the parks/operations that simply take care of them and don't exploit them for $$. From what I've heard, Thai Elephant Conservation Center in Lampang, does a good job of taking care of the animals.

Some could be released back into the wild. "In a bid to reverse the precipitous decline of elephants in the wild, Thailand's Queen Sirikit has encouraged an experiment to release some from the royal household. The results could be significant for other parts of the world with plummeting elephant populations, writes Leyla Alyanak." from this website..

Also, take a look at this article..

[Tywais]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants.

Perhaps when you get on board? Just kidding.

I suspect she is referring to the handling and care taking of the elephants. Most of what I've seen they seem to be well handled, fed and bathed. May not be so in all camps though, just the ones I've seen and that's been a long time ago.

[Galong]

If riding elephants is cruel what about the poor old horse, camel, donkey, llama, yak, giraffe and emus.

I think they would be far better off taking tourists for joy rides than lugging timber through the jungle, as in the past...

Those poor animals were/are abused too. What's your point?

You 'think' they would be better off because you're not the one being beaten into submission so some unenlightened tourist can sit his/her fat arse on your back.

Plus, from everyone I know who has ridden on a elephant, it's not that fun and certainly not as rewarding as feeding and/or bathing them. Elephant rides are offered because it's easy to copy.

You are correct in saying that lugging timber through the jungle was no fun. I've seen some very disturbing videos with elephants being beaten to tow a log that was way too big even for the full-grown elephant in the video.

I don't see any examples of Buddhist compassion in this country. I see the exact opposite in most cases.

[Johpa]

Plus, from everyone I know who has ridden on a elephant, it's not that fun and certainly not as rewarding as feeding and/or bathing them. Elephant rides are offered because it's easy to copy.

Riding an elephant is a bit of a once in a lifetime experience in that it is, for most people, quite fun the first time, but not all that exciting the second time. Unless you have a large covered howdah with lots of pillows and a few concubines along for the ride, elephants are not the best form of personal transportation.

That being said, if the elephants were not domesticated, not a pleasant transformational process as one can imagine but not as horrific as many would have you believe, then the alternative would be eradication.

[Johpa]

I don't see any examples of Buddhist compassion in this country. I see the exact opposite in most cases.

I also do not see Buddhism in practice too often in Thailand, and I am in disagreement with a number of respected western academics in that I see Thailand as being fundamentally an animist culture. But I am friends with an owner of one of the larger elephant camps up north and I consider him to be one of the more compassionate hi-so Thais that I have met, a man who has gone the extra mile to provide for the elephants under his care.

[britmaveric]

Well for the elephants do all those tricks I have to assume lot of beating goes on. I could be wrong, but makes me wonder. As for riding them - not very comfy, and you wont be impressed for too long.

[Austhaied]

If riding elephants is cruel what about the poor old horse, camel, donkey, llama, yak, giraffe and emus.

I think they would be far better off taking tourists for joy rides than lugging timber through the jungle, as in the past...

Those poor animals were/are abused too. What's your point? Elephants are larger, therefore can handle the weight better than a horse, etc..

You 'think' they would be better off because you're not the one being beaten into submission so some unenlightened tourist can sit his/her fat arse on your back. I would prefer they were all free but that's not the world we live in now, is it ?

Plus, from everyone I know who has ridden on a elephant, it's not that fun and certainly not as rewarding as feeding and/or bathing them. Elephant rides are offered because it's easy to copy. Fun the first time, boring thereafter. That's from everyone that i know thats done it.

You are correct in saying that lugging timber through the jungle was no fun. I've seen some very disturbing videos with elephants being beaten to tow a log that was way too big even for the full-grown elephant in the video.At least we agree on something

I don't see any examples of Buddhist compassion in this country. I see the exact opposite in most cases. Thats a pity you see it that way. I guess we all choose to see what we want to see. I see compassion and loving kindness everywhere..

Edited April 25, 2008 by Austhaied

[thithi]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants. Cruel is bring them into the city and making them beg.

abso-bloody-lutely

i hate when they bring the Chang into the city ... i just walk away

[miltonbentley]

Riding elephants is not necessarily cruel. Elephants are quite capable of carrying the weight of several people and a howdah or chair without any negative effects. What does cause problems is ill-fitting or poorly designed howdahs which either put weight directly on an elephant's spine or cause chafing and rope burn. Most decent commercial elephant camps will make sure the howdahs are correctly fitted for economic reasons as much as any other as a sick elephant can't work and is useless to the owner.

The best way to ride elephants is bareback sitting on the neck or head. This will cause the elephant no discomfort and is an incredible experience. I believe this is possible at some of the smaller family elephant camps and at the Thai Elephant Conservation Centre (TECC) in Lampang.

There are good and bad elephant tourist camps around Chiang Mai. I have seen some terrible things in some of the camps that are not only extremely cruel and harmful to the elephant but also likely to make them a danger for people that come into contact with them. I have also seen some very good camps where elephant care and welfare is clearly a priority and would highlight Mae Sa as one of these.

Elephant Nature Park used to permit natural riding but stopped several years ago, a decision that I personally felt was a mistake but was widely supported by most people involved with the project.

On the training issue, again it does not necessarily have to be cruel. Elephants are highly intelligent animals and their propensity for learning is strong but the standards of mahoutship and traditional elephant knowledge has massively declined in the modern world. Many of the people I have observed working with elephants in Thailand do not have the required skills or the patience or time to train an elephant without cruelty. The TECC has been working hard over a number of years to try to correct this but it is an uphill struggle.

One final point the tourist industry is vital to the survival of elephants in Thailand so people should be encouraged to see elephants here. If you want to ride choose a reputable camp. If you go to a camp and have concerns about the elephant's welfare challenge the operator or publicise a bad experience. I have long felt that there should be a minimum enforceable welfare standard for camps but TIT and this may be a long time coming.

[Galong]

But I am friends with an owner of one of the larger elephant camps up north and I consider him to be one of the more compassionate hi-so Thais that I have met, a man who has gone the extra mile to provide for the elephants under his care.

Thanks Johpa... I'm sure there are plenty of kind-hearted Thais. I'm married to one.

From my personal experience, I've seen a lot of cruelty. I've seen elephants tortured and beaten. The state of dogs and cats, often thrown away at temples, is heart-breaking. I don't like to stereotype people, but from my experience, Thais seem totally unconcerned about the suffering of other sentient beings.

[Galong]

I don't see any examples of Buddhist compassion in this country. I see the exact opposite in most cases. Thats a pity you see it that way. I guess we all choose to see what we want to see. I see compassion and loving kindness everywhere..

Sorry, but you're wrong.

I didn't choose to see the mahout from Siam Safari beat the crap out of an elephant. I just happened to be there when it happened.

I didn't choose to see the mahout throwing rocks at an elephant that was on a very short chain tied to a post. He was evidently trying to hit the elephant in the eye with a rock.

I didn't choose to see a baby elephant being whacked repeatedly with a long piece of rattan for not keeping as close to the other elephants.

I didn't choose to see the many puppies born with mange who will undoubtedly live their entire life in pain and misery.

I didn't choose to see all of the dogs and cats that are thrown away at temples throughout the country. I just happened to go to the temple with my Thai wife.

I didn't choose to see baby gibbons paraded around Patong so unsuspecting tourists can pay to get their photos taken with these poor animals whose parents were shot in order to be captured.

The list goes on and on. It wasn't my choice to see these things as you so eloquently accuse. I've been here for over 15 years and I've seen things that sicken me... not by choice.

Sorry, but I care about the welfare of animals and people. I don't ration my compassion. There are Thais who are very kind-hearted, but overall, unfortunately, I see more suffering than a peaceful coexistence.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that there is anything cruel about riding the elephants.

Perhaps when you get on board? Just kidding.

Actually, I was going to mention how cruel that would be, but I don't enjoy riding them anyway. It is totally uncomfortable and I worry that I will fall off when they are going downhill - especially in the mud. I much rather walk!

Edited April 26, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Bananaman]

I'm sorry to say that all you folks saying that riding elephants (even the ones that are not beaten and are kept in good conditions) is not cruel, are missing one fundamental point, that being that the elephant is given no say in the matter as to whether it wants to be ridden and that is essentially exploitative. These gentle giants don't speak our language, they can't tell us if they have a pain in some part of their body that might be exacerbated by carrying passengers and yet we are unbelievably arrogant enough to think that we have a God-given right to climb aboard them and have them tramp through the jungle at our whim in order to get our cheap kicks.

I guess we all have different ideas as to what an animal's rights are in this world, but I'm from the camp that says that they are not here for our personal use or pleasure and have the right to live their lives entirely as nature intended.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess we all have different ideas as to what an animal's rights are in this world, but I'm from the camp that says that they are not here for our personal use or pleasure and have the right to live their lives entirely as nature intended.

I agree with you, but, unfortunately, if they are of no financial use to mankind, some sc*mbag is going to shoot them all and stuff them!

[jaideeguy]

I actually enjoy riding the beasts and am admiring of their strength and agility. Have ridden them on numerous times with the family and am always amazed at how sure footed they are, wading across 1.mtr deep rapids with bolders under foot and climbing 45% slopes at ease. No other animal [or machine] short of a tank could do that.

Amazing animals....go for it, you'll enjoy!!

[Blinky Bill]

But I am friends with an owner of one of the larger elephant camps up north and I consider him to be one of the more compassionate hi-so Thais that I have met, a man who has gone the extra mile to provide for the elephants under his care.

Thanks Johpa... I'm sure there are plenty of kind-hearted Thais. I'm married to one.

From my personal experience, I've seen a lot of cruelty. I've seen elephants tortured and beaten. The state of dogs and cats, often thrown away at temples, is heart-breaking. I don't like to stereotype people, but from my experience, Thais seem totally unconcerned about the suffering of other sentient beings.

Galong, with all your talk of cruelty and lack of compassion towards animals why do you have an avatar of a baton wielding policeperson? These devices are designed to beat and inflict pain on your fellow man.

Does all your compassion not extend to humans? Do you hug trees as well?

Edited April 26, 2008 by Blinky Bill

[Galong]

Galong, with all your talk of cruelty and lack of compassion towards animals why do you have an avatar of a baton wielding policeperson? These devices are designed to beat and inflict pain on your fellow man.

Does all your compassion not extend to humans? Do you hug trees as well?

Oh, so you aren't familiar with Cartman on South Park? If you were, you'd know how funny he is. I'm not so much of a fundamentalist that I oppose every single thing that could possibly be construed as abusive. I oppose blatant cruelty, neglect and exploitation of all living things.

I don't hit people or animals. And, before you come back with something like "you're one of those people who love animals more than people" I'll say that I see no need to ration my compassion. That is NOT to say that I wouldn't protect myself, my family or friends. I have a high limit for personal abuse, but if you cross that threshold... um, the 'baton' might come out.

Yes, I hug trees... thanks for asking. I also hug poor people and disadvantaged people and old people and I support five families. I work with school kids to promote environmental conservation... both local schools and international school. I've rescued five dogs and I'd have more if I had the room.

What do you do to make the world a better place?

[Ajarn]

But I am friends with an owner of one of the larger elephant camps up north and I consider him to be one of the more compassionate hi-so Thais that I have met, a man who has gone the extra mile to provide for the elephants under his care.

Thanks Johpa... I'm sure there are plenty of kind-hearted Thais. I'm married to one.

From my personal experience, I've seen a lot of cruelty. I've seen elephants tortured and beaten. The state of dogs and cats, often thrown away at temples, is heart-breaking. I don't like to stereotype people, but from my experience, Thais seem totally unconcerned about the suffering of other sentient beings.

Galong, with all your talk of cruelty and lack of compassion towards animals why do you have an avatar of a baton wielding policeperson? These devices are designed to beat and inflict pain on your fellow man.

Does all your compassion not extend to humans? Do you hug trees as well?

Ignore him Blinky. Just an idiot with nothing better to do...

[Blinky Bill]

Galong, with all your talk of cruelty and lack of compassion towards animals why do you have an avatar of a baton wielding policeperson? These devices are designed to beat and inflict pain on your fellow man.

Does all your compassion not extend to humans? Do you hug trees as well?

Oh, so you aren't familiar with Cartman on South Park? If you were, you'd know how funny he is. I'm not so much of a fundamentalist that I oppose every single thing that could possibly be construed as abusive. I oppose blatant cruelty, neglect and exploitation of all living things.

I don't hit people or animals. And, before you come back with something like "you're one of those people who love animals more than people" I'll say that I see no need to ration my compassion. That is NOT to say that I wouldn't protect myself, my family or friends. I have a high limit for personal abuse, but if you cross that threshold... um, the 'baton' might come out.

Yes, I hug trees... thanks for asking. I also hug poor people and disadvantaged people and old people and I support five families. I work with school kids to promote environmental conservation... both local schools and international school. I've rescued five dogs and I'd have more if I had the room.

What do you do to make the world a better place?

I have no idea who Cartman is or what South Park is either.

Congratulations on being such a wonderful human being. It seems to me that you have a very high opinion of yourself and are extremely self-righteous.

I do many things for many people but I don't need to tell the world about it. Those that I help know it and that is enough reward for me.

BTW, I love many animals too. I love tenderloin beef (rare), roast lamb and lamb loin chops, pork is also on my love list. One of the most delicious snacks I have ever had in Thailand is buffalo foetus taken from a pregnant cow when slaughtered, so I guess I love buffalo as well. Been known to eat dog, snake and rat over the years as well, they were okay but I didn't love them.

[kash]

I see compassion and loving kindness everywhere..

whatever medication your on, please let me know the name - I want some!

[Nienke]

I’m a bit flabbergasted by some reactions here on this thread. Why is it necessary to ‘attack’ someone who expresses their opinion? And why is it, that when a person says that s/he’s an idiot/moron/asshol_e/or-whatever-that-puts-him/herself-down, they get a pat on the shoulder. But ‘Woh’ the one who says some positive traits from oneself? S/he will be trashed.

Personally, I prefer not to ride an elephant. Main reason is that I do not know how the animal has been ‘trained’. Fact is that the traditional way of ‘training’ the elephant is horrific, IN MY OPINION!

Here is a link to a VDO made by someone who has sent it to Peta U.S.: http://www.helpthaielephants.com/index.html Click on the ‘shocking VDO’ and/or on the slide show. (I’m well aware there are many pro-Peta and many others con-Peta, but the VDO speaks for itself.) At the Elephant Nature camp in Mae Tang, I have been watching a similar VDO. And again, in my opinion, it’s horrific.

It seems that there are still many (Thai) people out there who believe that the traditional training method is the only way to put an elephant into sub-mission. Fortunately, there are also (Thai) people who know that by positive reinforcement one can also teach an elephant to do things for you, such as riding on its back, and who treat their animals well.

And if I’m not mistaken, this was also the OP’s question. That is, where the OP can ride an elephant that is not mistreated.

Unfortunately, I can not answer that question, plainly because I’m not updated on this topic.

Although, Miltonbentley has already replied on this thread, I suggest to the OP to PM or email Miltonbentley privately. He and his wife have done some wonderful work with the elephants in Thailand (click on this link Supporting Elephant conservation) and are most probably much more able to inform you than I can. You can also drop by their bar/restaurant Tuskers (map) for a chat.

Nienke

[Austhaied]

I see compassion and loving kindness everywhere..

whatever medication your on, please let me know the name - I want some!

Start meditating and clean up your act, then you'll see..maybe..

Edited April 26, 2008 by Austhaied

[Ajarn]

I’m a bit flabbergasted by some reactions here on this thread. Why is it necessary to ‘attack’ someone who expresses their opinion? And why is it, that when a person says that s/he’s an idiot/moron/asshol_e/or-whatever-that-puts-him/herself-down, they get a pat on the shoulder. But ‘Woh’ the one who says some positive traits from oneself? S/he will be trashed.

Personally, I prefer not to ride an elephant. Main reason is that I do not know how the animal has been ‘trained’. Fact is that the traditional way of ‘training’ the elephant is horrific, IN MY OPINION!

Here is a link to a VDO made by someone who has sent it to Peta U.S.: http://www.helpthaielephants.com/index.html Click on the ‘shocking VDO’ and/or on the slide show. (I’m well aware there are many pro-Peta and many others con-Peta, but the VDO speaks for itself.) At the Elephant Nature camp in Mae Tang, I have been watching a similar VDO. And again, in my opinion, it’s horrific.

It seems that there are still many (Thai) people out there who believe that the traditional training method is the only way to put an elephant into sub-mission. Fortunately, there are also (Thai) people who know that by positive reinforcement one can also teach an elephant to do things for you, such as riding on its back, and who treat their animals well.

And if I’m not mistaken, this was also the OP’s question. That is, where the OP can ride an elephant that is not mistreated.

Unfortunately, I can not answer that question, plainly because I’m not updated on this topic.

Although, Miltonbentley has already replied on this thread, I suggest to the OP to PM or email Miltonbentley privately. He and his wife have done some wonderful work with the elephants in Thailand (click on this link Supporting Elephant conservation) and are most probably much more able to inform you than I can. You can also drop by their bar/restaurant Tuskers (map) for a chat.

Nienke

Nienke. I'm one of the people who don't think much of anyone with his attitudes after living here 15 years (he says). I figure he is what I called him, but I should have spelled it out earlier. Read some of his past letters, if you're interested.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Ajarn

[galwaygirl]

yes thank you Nienke thats exactly what i meant, could i find elephants that were trained fairly. i think one of the earlier posters mentioned the Elephant Nature Park in Chiang Mai too. after reading their website i've decided i'l go there. sounds great. never liked the idea of 'shows' and i was only ever interested in riding one and giving it a good pat on the head. Thanks everyone.

[seagull]

yes thank you Nienke thats exactly what i meant, could i find elephants that were trained fairly. i think one of the earlier posters mentioned the Elephant Nature Park in Chiang Mai too. after reading their website i've decided i'l go there. sounds great. never liked the idea of 'shows' and i was only ever interested in riding one and giving it a good pat on the head. Thanks everyone.

Well, after you have visited and gone home, I believed the guys on this forum would still be fighting over your OP. Hilarious man !

[jdinasia]

I always enjoy Galong's rants. Often way off base but always amusing!