Elephant Rides- Cruelty?

[Flatouthruthefog]

I don't see any examples of Buddhist compassion in this country. I see the exact opposite in most cases. Thats a pity you see it that way. I guess we all choose to see what we want to see. I see compassion and loving kindness everywhere..

Sorry, but you're wrong.

I didn't choose to see the mahout from Siam Safari beat the crap out of an elephant. I just happened to be there when it happened.

I didn't choose to see the mahout throwing rocks at an elephant that was on a very short chain tied to a post. He was evidently trying to hit the elephant in the eye with a rock.

I didn't choose to see a baby elephant being whacked repeatedly with a long piece of rattan for not keeping as close to the other elephants.

I didn't choose to see the many puppies born with mange who will undoubtedly live their entire life in pain and misery.

I didn't choose to see all of the dogs and cats that are thrown away at temples throughout the country. I just happened to go to the temple with my Thai wife.

I didn't choose to see baby gibbons paraded around Patong so unsuspecting tourists can pay to get their photos taken with these poor animals whose parents were shot in order to be captured.

The list goes on and on. It wasn't my choice to see these things as you so eloquently accuse. I've been here for over 15 years and I've seen things that sicken me... not by choice.

Sorry, but I care about the welfare of animals and people. I don't ration my compassion. There are Thais who are very kind-hearted, but overall, unfortunately, I see more suffering than a peaceful coexistence.

Hi Galong.

I am sure you don't "ration your compassion" (nice!) but may I ask: did you act on the fact?

I've been here about the same length of time as yourelf, visited only 4 elephant establishments and happily never saw any bad treatment. (Yes, "saw". Who knows what goes on at some places round the back in the name of "training"?).

I am simply asking (and I mean NO implied criticism here) whether or not you did or said anything - at the time or later - in response to the brutal treatment you saw?

Really, I would NOT have known what to do had I been in your shoes and this being Thailand.

I think I would have made statements of complaint to TAT and the Tourist Police with copies to the elephant camp concerned, and I also think that would have been a total and complete waste of time.

But maybe I'm wrong? May I ask what you did - and/or what would you advise other tv readers to do if they witness similar horrors?

[sabaijai]

I’m a bit flabbergasted by some reactions here on this thread. Why is it necessary to ‘attack’ someone who expresses their opinion? And why is it, that when a person says that s/he’s an idiot/moron/asshol_e/or-whatever-that-puts-him/herself-down, they get a pat on the shoulder. But ‘Woh’ the one who says some positive traits from oneself? S/he will be trashed.

Personally, I prefer not to ride an elephant. Main reason is that I do not know how the animal has been ‘trained’. Fact is that the traditional way of ‘training’ the elephant is horrific, IN MY OPINION!

Here is a link to a VDO made by someone who has sent it to Peta U.S.: http://www.helpthaielephants.com/index.html Click on the ‘shocking VDO’ and/or on the slide show. (I’m well aware there are many pro-Peta and many others con-Peta, but the VDO speaks for itself.) At the Elephant Nature camp in Mae Tang, I have been watching a similar VDO. And again, in my opinion, it’s horrific.

It seems that there are still many (Thai) people out there who believe that the traditional training method is the only way to put an elephant into sub-mission. Fortunately, there are also (Thai) people who know that by positive reinforcement one can also teach an elephant to do things for you, such as riding on its back, and who treat their animals well.

And if I’m not mistaken, this was also the OP’s question. That is, where the OP can ride an elephant that is not mistreated.

Unfortunately, I can not answer that question, plainly because I’m not updated on this topic.

Although, Miltonbentley has already replied on this thread, I suggest to the OP to PM or email Miltonbentley privately. He and his wife have done some wonderful work with the elephants in Thailand (click on this link Supporting Elephant conservation) and are most probably much more able to inform you than I can. You can also drop by their bar/restaurant Tuskers (map) for a chat.

Nienke

The video speaks for those who staged it at the request of PETA. If you understand Thai and listen closely to the soundtrack, you can hear a Thai woman (a faux activist who has her own commercial elephant camp collecting funds as if it were an NGO, indeed the one where you saw the video) instructing the mahouts to hit the baby elephant harder. It is not considered a realistic representation of most training activities by those well versed in elephant training in Thailand.

[cmsally]

I’m a bit flabbergasted by some reactions here on this thread. Why is it necessary to ‘attack’ someone who expresses their opinion? And why is it, that when a person says that s/he’s an idiot/moron/asshol_e/or-whatever-that-puts-him/herself-down, they get a pat on the shoulder. But ‘Woh’ the one who says some positive traits from oneself? S/he will be trashed.

Personally, I prefer not to ride an elephant. Main reason is that I do not know how the animal has been ‘trained’. Fact is that the traditional way of ‘training’ the elephant is horrific, IN MY OPINION!

Here is a link to a VDO made by someone who has sent it to Peta U.S.: http://www.helpthaielephants.com/index.html Click on the ‘shocking VDO’ and/or on the slide show. (I’m well aware there are many pro-Peta and many others con-Peta, but the VDO speaks for itself.) At the Elephant Nature camp in Mae Tang, I have been watching a similar VDO. And again, in my opinion, it’s horrific.

It seems that there are still many (Thai) people out there who believe that the traditional training method is the only way to put an elephant into sub-mission. Fortunately, there are also (Thai) people who know that by positive reinforcement one can also teach an elephant to do things for you, such as riding on its back, and who treat their animals well.

And if I’m not mistaken, this was also the OP’s question. That is, where the OP can ride an elephant that is not mistreated.

Unfortunately, I can not answer that question, plainly because I’m not updated on this topic.

Although, Miltonbentley has already replied on this thread, I suggest to the OP to PM or email Miltonbentley privately. He and his wife have done some wonderful work with the elephants in Thailand (click on this link Supporting Elephant conservation) and are most probably much more able to inform you than I can. You can also drop by their bar/restaurant Tuskers (map) for a chat.

Nienke

The video speaks for those who staged it at the request of PETA. If you understand Thai and listen closely to the soundtrack, you can hear a Thai woman (a faux activist who has her own commercial elephant camp collecting funds as if it were an NGO, indeed the one where you saw the video) instructing the mahouts to hit the baby elephant harder. It is not considered a realistic representation of most training activities by those well versed in elephant training in Thailand.

I was also told the same a while back by a couple of credible sources.

[lannarebirth]

I’m a bit flabbergasted by some reactions here on this thread. Why is it necessary to ‘attack’ someone who expresses their opinion? And why is it, that when a person says that s/he’s an idiot/moron/asshol_e/or-whatever-that-puts-him/herself-down, they get a pat on the shoulder. But ‘Woh’ the one who says some positive traits from oneself? S/he will be trashed.

Personally, I prefer not to ride an elephant. Main reason is that I do not know how the animal has been ‘trained’. Fact is that the traditional way of ‘training’ the elephant is horrific, IN MY OPINION!

Here is a link to a VDO made by someone who has sent it to Peta U.S.: http://www.helpthaielephants.com/index.html Click on the ‘shocking VDO’ and/or on the slide show. (I’m well aware there are many pro-Peta and many others con-Peta, but the VDO speaks for itself.) At the Elephant Nature camp in Mae Tang, I have been watching a similar VDO. And again, in my opinion, it’s horrific.

It seems that there are still many (Thai) people out there who believe that the traditional training method is the only way to put an elephant into sub-mission. Fortunately, there are also (Thai) people who know that by positive reinforcement one can also teach an elephant to do things for you, such as riding on its back, and who treat their animals well.

And if I’m not mistaken, this was also the OP’s question. That is, where the OP can ride an elephant that is not mistreated.

Unfortunately, I can not answer that question, plainly because I’m not updated on this topic.

Although, Miltonbentley has already replied on this thread, I suggest to the OP to PM or email Miltonbentley privately. He and his wife have done some wonderful work with the elephants in Thailand (click on this link Supporting Elephant conservation) and are most probably much more able to inform you than I can. You can also drop by their bar/restaurant Tuskers (map) for a chat.

Nienke

The video speaks for those who staged it at the request of PETA. If you understand Thai and listen closely to the soundtrack, you can hear a Thai woman (a faux activist who has her own commercial elephant camp collecting funds as if it were an NGO, indeed the one where you saw the video) instructing the mahouts to hit the baby elephant harder. It is not considered a realistic representation of most training activities by those well versed in elephant training in Thailand.

Yes, It's interesting how this lady gets a free pass from "compassionate" farangs, while most aware Thais I know says she's enriching herself collecting western sized "charitable" donations. I'm aware of a few farangs who similarly enrich themselves peddling pseudo Buddhism to westerners. It's amazing how much they'll pay to avoid a "real" Thai experience or to learn that things aren't always as black and white as they'd like to believe.

[Nienke]

The video speaks for those who staged it at the request of PETA. If you understand Thai and listen closely to the soundtrack, you can hear a Thai woman (a faux activist who has her own commercial elephant camp collecting funds as if it were an NGO, indeed the one where you saw the video) instructing the mahouts to hit the baby elephant harder. It is not considered a realistic representation of most training activities by those well versed in elephant training in Thailand.

I've hear rumors about this camp as well, but then more about money going in the wrong direction and not about (baby) elephants being mistreated in any way. I've also read accusations towards PETA.

From what I understand there is a lot of competition and jealousy going on between the elephant camps in Thailand and the (inter)national rescue/environmental organisations, with a lot of badmouthing between them.

The abovementioned I find quite a big accusation. Do you have any proof, or is it from hear-say?

As said before I don't know much about what's going on in the elephant world here in Thailand (other than some rumors I've heard/read). Still, same as the OP (who most probably already went), I also would like to know (and see, if possible) where the elephants are well-treated and trained according positive reinforcement techniques.

Mae Sa Elephant camp, TECC, the ones that MB mentioned? Any other recommendations?

Nienke

[sabaijai]

The video speaks for those who staged it at the request of PETA. If you understand Thai and listen closely to the soundtrack, you can hear a Thai woman (a faux activist who has her own commercial elephant camp collecting funds as if it were an NGO, indeed the one where you saw the video) instructing the mahouts to hit the baby elephant harder. It is not considered a realistic representation of most training activities by those well versed in elephant training in Thailand.

I've hear rumors about this camp as well, but then more about money going in the wrong direction and not about (baby) elephants being mistreated in any way. I've also read accusations towards PETA.

From what I understand there is a lot of competition and jealousy going on between the elephant camps in Thailand and the (inter)national rescue/environmental organisations, with a lot of badmouthing between them.

The abovementioned I find quite a big accusation. Do you have any proof, or is it from hear-say?

As said before I don't know much about what's going on in the elephant world here in Thailand (other than some rumors I've heard/read). Still, same as the OP (who most probably already went), I also would like to know (and see, if possible) where the elephants are well-treated and trained according positive reinforcement techniques.

Mae Sa Elephant camp, TECC, the ones that MB mentioned? Any other recommendations?

Nienke

Neinke, the standard is the royally sponsored Thai Elephant Conservation Centre near Lampang. Talk to Richard Laird, who has been a consultant there since the 1980s and probably knows more about elephants in Thailand than any non-Thai living here. I can send you his email address by PM if you want.

Richard can corroborate the information on the PETA-sponsored video I cited. I viewed the video when it was first released and could make out a woman's voice ordering the mahouts to beat the elephants harder. By now PETA may have edited those commands out, I haven't seen it since it was first released. The Thai press investigated the charges pretty thoroughly and the general conclusion was that it was a set-up. It became something of an international incident at the time and PETA drew intense criticism from former sympathisers. There were plenty of articles in the Bangkok Post and The Nation about it, so you could search their archives for further info. Someone wrote a very detailed rebuttal to the video's charges for either the Post or The Nation.

Mae Sa Valley Elephant Camp has quite a good reputation as well.

[Nienke]

There are so many rumors going around about the elephant camps/centres that I really don't know right from wrong, which made me reluctant to go to any of them. Till recently when I went to the Elephant Nature Camp. Now, I get the impression that I still made the wrong choice.

It's so difficult as I have also heard negative rumors about Mae Sa and TECC over the years.

Anyway, thank you so much for your reply, Sabaijai. Very much appreciated.

And yes, I would like to have the email address of Richard Laird pm-ed, provided that he doesn't mind.

Nienke