rabo

earthpig, I cannot fault your statement, I can only say the situation is too complex for brief discussion, I think everyone is having trouble with that.

you are very right.

also your quoted post from earlier is quite good too.

there's LOTS of things to be said about our beloved adopted country.....

Touch, er, touche as the French say.

Why no water cannons? There is enough dirty water in the khlongs of Bangkok. Instead of bullets. It's what civilized countries do.

The water in the khlongs is lethal. A few years ago a well loved pop singer was involved a car accident and his car went into a khlong. Somehow he got a fungal infection of the brain, which even resisted special medication flown in from abroad. He died after about a year.

Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible.

indeed, you do repeat your view. and repeat and repeat....

thaksin absolutely shares responsibility for this. but to suggest that he is the only--or even the most important--player is, in my ever so humble opinion, is an unhelpful oversimplification.

there are a huge number of other factors at play here. some of these factors are due to economic factors that affect all rapidly developing societies, others are unique to thailand and some even to buddhism.

true, any leader responsibile for a tak bai or thousands of extra judicial murders is ultimately going to be hated. good riddance to the man.

but this fact should not obscure the truth, and the truth encompasses far more than thaksin, his many sins and indeed as well, his political genius.

earthpig, I cannot fault your statement, I can only say the situation is too complex for brief discussion, I think everyone is having trouble with that. Here is something I wrote earlier for a different audience.

The Dark Side of Light, or why you shouldn't litter

There is a Western concept called nipping a problem in the bud. This concept is unknown in Thai culture.

Thailand's mai ben arai, not my problem, non involvement style has always been the basis of a relaxed, friendly, yet rather free lifestyle enjoyed by all and the main reason foreigners have always been so welcome. This style is a direct consequence of their Buddhist teaching and probably being raised in a benevolent Kingdom.

The dark side of this picture (for where there's day there is night) is that the bad seeds of society are allowed to grow and flourish. Bad people and bad things are ignored or tolerated. In the past though there has always been balance. When the weed grew too tall and everyone around had had enough, some in the community or maybe even the family simply helped the bad one onto their next life. I've seen this happen including the crazy guy who one day came looking for me with a gun. A few months later he was killed on a visit back home. (And I swear .....)

Most everything that happens in Thailand can be understood in this framework, and by knowing whatever is said must sound pleasant. Truth is not the issue. This is especially true of the corruption, lack of law enforcement, and the rise of people like Mr. Thaksin. Unfortunatly, as Thailand confronts the modern world, easing in to some form of democracy (at the insistence of the monarchy) these problems grow bigger and have gone out of control. In addition to democracy and handphones, the west introduces concepts like wealth, greed, power, social unrest, hatred, and war. No, this is not naive, it's relative.

Thaksin is just the great weed. True, Thaksin was able to build a power base on the growing economic imbalances between the industrializing urban cites and the rural farmers. But this is the small picture, which does not represent a need or desire for social upheaval or revolution. The big picture is how does a benevolent and overly free society deal with weeds, watered by modern wealth and corruption, when they grow to the size of a mini Hitler.

This time, a coup didn't work. The weed is too big and rooted in fertile soil. Thaksin is fed by an all but insane "leadership", hundreds of unemployed disgruntled rangers, thousands of well armed thugs, and billions of stolen dollars. This time there is no easy way out, if any way at all. For Thailand, it is now do or die and there's no turning back.

What should be done, though there's no time now, is go back to the beginning, early childhood and begin teaching social responsibility along with the wai-ing and respect that makes them Thai. Teach them to be responsible for the bad that occurs in society, and especially to accept real law enforcement.

As for democracy, there is also no turning back but the Thais must clean up their house first. Democracy doesn't function with out law and order. That bears repeating, democracy does not function with out law and order. So yes, today is a day of momentous change and maybe civil war but the war will not be fought between oppressed under classes and aloof elite, a la West. It must be fought between freedom and social responsibility. Thailand of course means Land of the Free.

Maybe in some not too distant future you can return to Thailand, be greeted by some pretty thing that smiles and talks on like a breeze, then gently puts her hand in yours and takes you to the police station to pay your fine for littering in their nice kingdom. I think that's my dream.

Sorry to go on and on, but this is the problem here, today. I hope it can be fixed without throwing out what the world has come to know as amazing Thailand.

Just reading Asok/Sukhumvit junction is now being barricaded with tyres etc. Can anyone confirm if the mob has spread east along Sukhumvit?

again, its not a matter of the Reds surging out of Ratchaprasong. Red neighborhoods are uprising on all four points of the Bangkok compass.

As we saw yesterday at Klong Teoi, they are surging out of their neighborhoods with a very clear tactic: sandwich the army formations and cut them off from resupply.

What makes you think that only Reds can be surrounded? the army is far more vulnerable to encirclement because its supply base is not indiginous to sympathetic neighborhoods, and the materiel it requries is more complex.

TV posters have to stop looking at this as an issan invasion of RathaP. we are way passed that.

the assasination of Sae Deang has set off an uprising of Reds all over Bangkok and, it would seem from certain reports, perhaps over other parts of thailand.

there is no debate; the reds are armed, even if there arms are by themselves no match for thai army. but the reds have something that has greater currency on the field of battle: determination.

gentlemen, you need to open your eyes as to what is happening all around you. we live in a dangerous place becoming more dangerous by the day.

You're assuming that Seh Daeng was shot by a Gov't ordered sniper. I'm not saying this isn't possible, however, it is equally as likely that he was targeted and shot by another faction of the Reds to get him out of the way OR by others who have suffered because of his non-willingness to agree with the majority of the Red leaders to continue negotiations and enter the reconciliation process.

Maybe I missed something, but I was under the understanding that it is still unknown who carried out the shot on Seh Daeng.

With due respect, as they say, I don't think earthpig is claiming the Army shot Seh Daeng, but it is surly possible.

Equally possible is Thaksin who gets a double bonus. He successfully triggers the desired uprising and gets rid of the mouth piece connecting him to the armed insurrection. The army only gets a very skilled commander off the field, well, and a bit of tit for tat.

A bit surprised they didn't find two bullets in his head.

But I also know that 10 year old died because Thaksin wants to teach a lesson to those that threw him out.

actually, that boy, like the pregnant woman, died because a sniper's bullet pierced their abdomens causing massive blood loss.

the rest is just talk.

and im no supporter of thaksin.

Well earthpig, OK, actually they died becasue they were born. Aside from that I repeat that this is Thaksin's war and he is ultimately responsible. This is not a questionable issue to the Thai's, it's not a conspiracy theory. This is the factual story that has been on the table for a couple of years. All factions in Thailand know this, especially those who must deal with the issues.

Even the reds say this is about getting Thaksin back, where is the mystery?

Is this close enough to an M-16 for you. It certainly wasn't 'captured' from the military.

actually this weapon is not an M-16. Its an AK-47 which is not standard issue in the thai military.

So it wasnt captured from the Thai army.

Its the first evidence ive seen if weaponry that is being supplied from outside thailand, and thus could be a horrifying harbinger of things to come.

anybody know what is going on here??

Only one[rifle], but could they come from Cambodia, Burma, or Singapore? The reason I mention Singapore is that Singapore's Tamasak Holdings, same guys that bought Thaskin's company, designed and built a complete small arms factory for Burma that was shipped in I think about 66 shipping containers. This was the late 1990s or early 2000s. I have no idea what kind of guns they would manufacture, except it was "small arms" for the junta.

I simply asked a question and am still waiting for an answer. Your answer appears to state these are poor citizens who live in the poor area but I have yet to see anyone else suggest this with any kind of proof.

you got your answer.

it just isnt consistent with your keyboard fantasy land to hear and acknowledge it.

completely innocent people die and are terrorized in REAL urban combat, even if that doesnt happen in the vivid world of fantasy between your ears.

that ten year old boy bled out because of people who think like you.

I can't imagine what urban warfare is like. But I also know that 10 year old died because Thaksin wants to teach a lesson to those that threw him out. Maybe you mean people that think like Thaksin

So we've changed from "innocent peaceful protesters" to "civilians". When you take off your red shirt, you're no longer a redshirt even while you are attacking soldiers. And given the incredibly low number of people killed, it is obvious that the army is not wantonly killing, ask the guy with the hole in his foot.

I must be dreaming . Have you ever heard of protest frequently turning violent anywhere in the word .

This is a protest not a tea party ..

The reds , right or wrong , have a deep sense of injustice done to them , like a majority of

Isaan ppl . I can understand that ... They have been robbed of their vote in Sept 2006

I would put the blame for non lethal violence , blockade , tear gas and so on more on the reds

They should had negociated then pulled back after the PM announced his roadmap

However i put the blame for civilian deaths squarely on the governement .

The army use live bullets ... Those are not accidental deaths

I have never heard of protesters shooting RPGs at a hotel occupied by civilians. I have heard of Osama's people doing this.

Either your position is untenable or you yourself are a terrorist. Can you offer an alternative?

That's from the heart, more and more are going to speak out as they watch their country burn.

I don't think she learned here English in Australia. The emphasis on [Thaksin] "You F...ing Idiot!", is right out of Hollywood.

And as for assets and wealth that should be in the public purse. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Agreed. Stopping corruption will help full the public coffers. Legitimate wealth goes for legitimate business investment which makes more money through taxes. A lot of laws will need to be enforced.

Anyone like to take a look and listen (in English) to what this Thai lady has to say about Thaksin

1:13

Well...

Well at least it is from the heart. No fence sitting there.

She had better hope that the red's don't prevail and Thaksin is back though.

Not always good thing to wear your heart on your sleeve like that.

I hope to god it doesn't turn out to be the daughter of someone in the public eye coz if that goes up on stage at the red rally, it might just raise the tension a bit.

A brave lass, I think that she is studying at the Australian School of Diplomacy, Canberra.

That's from the heart, more and more are going to speak out as they watch their country burn.

I don't think she learned here English in Australia. The emphasis on [Thaksin] "You F...ing Idiot!", is right out of Hollywood.

So, we can stay in compliance ... can we get a better understanding of which rule this would fall under? Since you deleted the posts, I am not sure what we cannot say in terms of the dead. Will it result in a suspension if we say we are happy a Terrorist has been killed or making a comment such as "It is a good thing Hitler died" ... to be clear I am not making that comment about Hitler as I don't want to be suspended and just using it as an example.

Looks to me more and more as its Abhisit who is acting like Hitler .

Many thais started to support him for his past moderation but now

that is changing

My wife's family (with the exception of the father who was very pro red and extremely old fashion)didn't really follow politics before this whole event now completely support Abhisit. Believe me, changing my father in law's mind about anything is a very difficult task.

And I also know for a fact that many of her relatives feel the same way.

I'm sure most Thai families now fall into this category.

As I said earlier, my family is the same way. I would say many responsible people come to the same point, and I count rural farming families as responsible, they survive on the land. No doubt there is still a lot of red support.

But my wife said something that surprised me last night for its wisdom. She is absolutely apolitical. She said, "We have now lost everything in the eyes of everybody. The government must not stop, now they must get rid of the mess."

As I said in another thread one can only wonder about the sense of injustice

as perceived by the reds and a large part of Isaan .

And wonder about its magnitude to the effect that protestors are willing to die for their

cause .

I dont think the military will ever try another coup again !

This is not a coup, sorry if that is not what you mean.

How do you guys explain this?

AFP Report: Journalists a 'terrorist' target for Thai army. "The press is a target, as well as people at the protest site," Said Sunsern

The government spokesman Sunsern has now officially designated the press as "terrorist targets".

Someone has seriously lost their marbles.

And don't say I made this up, because it was just posted by ThaiVisa news.

Source?

Government spokesman, AFP, ThaiVisa news clippings. ThaiVisa news (admin forum member) just posted it.

Now there is a real example of western reporting, they can't even understand other people's English.

Sunsern said: "The press is a target, as well as people at the protest site," (meaning they are in danger)

Then AFP reports "Journalists a 'terrorist' target for Thai army"

Need anyone know more about Western reporting???

You guys do dream of Thaksin a lot.

He was legally elected and ouseted in a coup by the army which is illegal. No country would send him back here even if they wanted to.

they just play Kasit and abhisit and suthep for the muppet they is. Obama "oh yes khun muppet er I mean Mr Muppet, I mean Mr Sooty er Sweep er Khun Sooty Mr Suthep, we'll send him back. Now can you tell me when you see him children?"

Abhisit, Suthep, Kasit togeher: "He's behind you"

Obama; "where" and so on

Thaksin was exppired as caretaker PM.

He had called the snap election, which removed him as LEGALLY ELECTED PM.

He was legally caretaker for 6 months but failed in his only duty to run a free and fair election.

He had resigned, after a visit to the palace,

and then UNILATERALLY decided to take the job back a week later on his own.

This means:

At the time of the coup he was NOT legally elected PM of Thailand.

There was also a totally faked attempt on his life, and it was obvcious to all,

this was an attempt to create State of Emergency and Martial law giving him back full powers.

The army put a stop to his powerplay... new we see him try yet again to wrest control of Thailand,

this time from a legal government.

He is an amoral megalomaniac with delusions of granduer and

and incredible need for approval in a kow tow society. We now witness his legacy.

Destruction of Thailands equalibrium. He is a pathetic excuse for a human being

What other famous Thai person would that desription fit?

"He is an amoral megalomaniac with delusions of granduer and

and incredible need for approval in a kow tow society. We now witness his legacy.

Destruction of Thailands equalibrium. He is a pathetic excuse for a human being"

You know who.

no, not really.

tell us who you mean?

Suchinda

Dear other than Americans.

NO

Most Americans are not as right-wing and dense as the angry white yanks posting here against the Reds.

The losers are still upset that Obama was elected and are taking it out on Thai poor people.

Just say this to them no matter what they post.

Obama won

Get over it you pathetic cry baby losers.

Now about Thailand.

Most Thai people on all sides do not want to fight.

The problem is that there are powerful people on both sided who can and will back violence.

So far, as bad as it has been, the Thai people have shown restraint.

A huge compromise is needed.

My best wishes to all Thai people.

May times be better soon.

Of course, I'm a southern democrat from way back. However, I'm just curious, what is the relation between how people voted in America and the rather complex political situation in Thailand?

I share your best wishes for Thailand, and for Obama for that matter. Go AirForce too, if that's what you are.

What's next? Kick out international media journalists? Arrest foreigners?

its still up, don't overreact and simply get a decent connection

some 'media'' ought to be kicked out

CNN, BBC and the like daren't report the truth

only Al Jazeera comes close

at least they dare to show film of reds carrying guns instead of covering it up like its a dirty little red secret

try this link for CNN i-report

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444833

works for me

All those who don't want or like reports by reputed International media can themselve go out on ground zero and see it for yourself and maybe make a video to inform and educate us also... or just watch those media reports which satisfy you

the truth satisfys me

gunfire is being EXCHANGED between army and reds

its really not a one way street as most media report it to be

there are many video examples and qualified reports of red with guns but few western media dare to show them

From the reports, it sounds like hundreds of explosions are going off everywhere. How many are M79 grenades? For an upper estimate, do you (everyone) remember the news report a few months ago about police raiding a small factory in Ahyuttaya that was manufacturing components for M79 grenade launchers? The guy was caught with a few hundred pieces but said he had already delivered about 1000.

Add to that, one guy on a motorbike caught delivering 63 grenades during the fighting near Don Muang on April 28th.

CRES financial blacklist include Thaksin, family members, relatives and some pro-Thaksin politicians as well as Seh Daeng. /via @tulsathit

now know why they left yesterday, probably tipped off

This should have been done months ago especially on Thaksin , now they should freeze all his and the familys overseas accounts and thet will slow him down , as for the leaders freeze all there assets have them put on terrorist watch lists in

case they escape.

See how far these reds go with out funding .

It is highly unlikely that this government will get any foreign government to freeze anything given their past record dealing with them. The have made so many claims of requests and demands in the media and virtually no diplomatic filings. I guess they think the UN is going to answer their email!

Thailand has a superb record of helping out on international terrorism and arms smuggling. The captured the top al qaeda leader in the region a few years ago, the famous Russian arms smuggler of Hollywood fame is still behind bars in Bangkok, and just recently they stopped an arms shipment from N. Korea at Don Muang.

I do wonder why they have not made more formal moves against Thaskin (that we know of) before now. Maybe they are not so good on the international legal paperwork.

Latest Death Toll: '29' (All Civilians). Injured: '221' /via @tulsathit

shows who the main aggressors are, the army!!

facts to back up the statement!!

Shows who are using better combat tactics. And in terms of weapons, the military is actually out-gunned, Reds are using grenades, military isn't.

Perhaps it's that double standard thing again. Would you suggest the bank robbers and arsonists be issued the same weapons and ammunition as the law enforcement officials?

Or maybe it's a matter of equal rights. The bank robbers and arsonists should be given equal time to shoot at the law enforcement officials without the worry of being fired on.

But then the bank robbers and arsonists would also have to follow the same rules of engagement, no more shooting rescue workers in the head.

Everyone I know that's been down to the red protest sites - said it was quite festive and very peaceful. Good people from all reports.

However I agree Jing - if the thai military decides to use snipers again, they just might injure or kill foreigners as well as the peaceful red shirts, so best to stay away.

You did see the report about an Army sniper on one building shooting a red sniper on another building, right.

And people complain about double standards.

Do you believe this kind of polls?You must be naive.What happen now in Bangkok is just the beginning what will happen in the next years.The north and north east of Thailand will never give up.

My family comes from Buri-Ram. B. I. G. family. I have watched the change in there views over the last few years and last few weeks. "Red shirt" has become a literal dirty word. Two weeks ago they spent their time watching soaps and videos to forget the problems. Now they are glued to the news and they want Abhisit to clean up this mess.

Surprise! I'm not naive, you are.

The problem is, it won't be the majority that will be rising up.

Just as is happening in Bangkok, small groups of red thugs will cause chaos around the country.

This I believe and the problems in the coming days and weeks are going to get worse before they get better.

In my view the support for the Reds hardline stance is limited.

However Thais deplore the military shooting other Thais.

Actually I suspect that they would accept it, if the military action actually achieved anything and restored order but so far that has not been the case.

All good points.

In recent history, the Thais have seen the military take illegitimate actions on their own accord that end in the shooting of mostly unarmed protesters.

This time, the shirt is on inside out. There is a heavily armed illegal force in the streets, the military has been hesitant to take action, and a government in (marginal) control is trying to restore law and order while attempting to follow court issued decrees.

Although the script is new, Thais certainly have ample reason to be suspicious of military action and no Thai wants to see any Thai shot. The fact the the majority see such harsh action necessary to reestablish law and order is very significant. Even if the majority was 50.001 %, even if the pole is less than accurate.

Lets pray that whatever action is taken, it restores order with the minimum of human sufferage.

Do you believe this kind of polls?You must be naive.What happen now in Bangkok is just the beginning what will happen in the next years.The north and north east of Thailand will never give up.

My family comes from Buri-Ram. B. I. G. family. I have watched the change in there views over the last few years and last few weeks. "Red shirt" has become a literal dirty word. Two weeks ago they spent their time watching soaps and videos to forget the problems. Now they are glued to the news and they want Abhisit to clean up this mess.

Surprise! I'm not naive, you are.

In my view the support for the Reds hardline stance is limited.

However Thais deplore the military shooting other Thais.

Actually I suspect that they would accept it, if the military action actually achieved anything and restored order but so far that has not been the case.

All good points.

In recent history, the Thais have seen the military take illegitimate actions on their own accord that end in the shooting of mostly unarmed protesters.

This time, the shirt is on inside out. There is a heavily armed illegal force in the streets, the military has been hesitant to take action, and a government in (marginal) control is trying to restore law and order while attempting to follow court issued decrees.

Although the script is new, Thais certainly have ample reason to be suspicious of military action and no Thai wants to see any Thai shot. The fact the the majority see such harsh action necessary to reestablish law and order is very significant. Even if the majority was 50.001 %, even if the pole is less than accurate.

Lets pray that whatever action is taken, it restores order with the minimum of human sufferage.

If the army have sent out snipers to deliberately kill protesters then as far as I'm concerned this is only one step away from bombing them.

Doesn't sound viable as a theory, "Army uses its best snipers to deliberately kill possibly innocent protesters selected at random".

For what purpose? Each and every death is a huge PR problem for the govt. Death of innocent people is tactically useless.

I could believe the Army has snipers to remove armed or threatening personnel. I could also believe the other side may have

snipers and could shoot innocent protesters for the PR boost, though barely credible.

The only thing I really know is that I don't know. Maybe later it will be clear.

veen_NT: RT @cyberbkk: RT @georgebkk: One Vajira rescue person was shot in the head while trying to rescue an injured man along Ngam Dupli Corner.

I'm sure the rescue person was armed and the army acted in self defense.

Where does it say the army shot him, or that he was shot intentionally?

There was another report yesterday of an ambulance attacked by the reds.

anyone inside of the red camp cannot be counted as a civilian I thought we covered that?

Says who? An anonymous forum poster? Go amend the constitution with that new paragraph, quick!

Troops to enter rally site if violence persists

Looks like tonight they will start the "final massacre". I hope the world media is there to witness what will happen to all the women, children and elderly.

Says the reds themselves when they declared war on this government and the people of Thailand.

I HOPE that your side will not be cowards and in knowing that this is coming move the women children and elderly out of their camp but they won't do that will they because they are their shields. man you reds are so brave and honourable.

Redparrot, don't rely on world media to capture the "final massacre" (sheesh), go and take your camera, take pictures you can trust. You can post[mortem] them here tomorrow. Don't forget to take your flash. A flashlight can also be useful in "capturing the action".