skatewash

I believe it was embassies jumping at the opportunity to discontinue doing something that they didn't like doing. What the embassies were doing was not illegal. They were witnessing the signing of an affidavit by a recognized holder of a US passport. If that was unacceptable to immigration, then immigration could have rejected those affidavits. That's not what happened. UK and US unilaterally decided to stop issuing such affidavits. Canada still issues such letters.

The first row in the chart is for Bangkok. A Google Lens translation for that entry: Passengers can travel normally. In the case of the province of origin, the measures for departure from the travel area, such as Hat Yai and Narathiwat, must have a document of survey results or a document confirming vaccination arrangements. [I'm guessing a better translation of the last paragraph might be: In the case of traveling from a province such as Hat Yai or Narathiwat, where there are special measures, you must have documentation such as a covid test result or a document confirming your vaccination status.]

It depends what you're used to I suppose. After dealing with the Internal Revenue Service my entire life, dealing with Thai Immigration seems to me like a walk in the park. ????

OK, I've reduced your 22,000 bath agent fee by 1,900 baht to account for the retirement extension application fee. After that change the agent method loses money every year unless you can find a bank account that is paying APR over 3.74%. Please let me know when you find a bank account paying that kind of interest. Of course it's exclusively bank interest based because when I invest in something that experiences market fluctuation with zero guarantee of principle preservation I'm going to want to earn a lot more interest than in a bank account. To look at other investments would be an apples and oranges type comparison. Nearly all of my money is invested at a substantially higher rate of return (9.5% over the last 9 years). The account maintained for my retirement extension represents a part of my cash reserve because for 7 months of the year 400,000 of it is available for withdrawal. The 1% APR I get with my Krungsri Bank Mee Tae Dai savings account is substantially more interest than I would be able to get in a US savings account.

Only the account you are using to meet the extension of stay requirement needs to be solely in your name. Any other account you have doesn't have to meet that restriction. A joint account would be fine for that purpose. It's not even guaranteed that they will ask about any other accounts. It's just better to be prepared if they do. I take all sorts of documents with me to immigration, nearly all the time they remain in my bag unused.

Of course you've never experienced any of those things. That's because you go to Room 103 to get your retirement extension. But If you had gone in the back of the building, entered the door labeled "abandon hope all ye who enter here" and descended into the dungeon under the "regular" immigration office you would have had a much different experience. That's where you would have experienced the ritual humiliation and all the other bad things. One only has to witness the degradation and listen to the wails of the condemned one time and you'll be using an agent the rest of your time in Thailand.

Well, let's see: I earn 1% APR on my Retirement Extension Bank Account, so with a starting principle of 800,000 I would have after 9 years of accumulating interest a balance of 874,948 baht. If I could earn 4% APR on another bank account, with a starting principle of 800,000 I would have after 9 years of paying the agent's yearly fee of 22,000 and accumulating interest a balance of 874,515 baht, which is 433 baht worse off than my Retirement Extension Bank Account. So I would need to be earning a higher than 4% APR on another bank account in order not to lose money paying the agent. Which bank account do you suggest I use that is paying better than 4% APR? agent fee.xlsx

Awesome! Which neighboring countries do you have in mind that offer a 100% legal, straightforward, and inexpensive way to stay long term in the country and not ever have to leave for any reason? I guess Vietnam isn't one of those countries, right? -- from an article entitled: "8 Reasons Retirees Are Falling In Love With Vietnam" at https://www.travelawaits.com/2563011/best-places-to-retire-vietnam/ I really would like to know which neighboring country offers something equivalent (or better) to what Thailand offers retired people. It's always good to have a plan B.

"I always do everything by the book and never had any problems" pretty much sums up my attitude towards immigration. I don't think everything that agents do is illegal. I do think I'm not interested in paying for their services. I've been doing all my own immigration business for about 9 years, so I figure I've saved myself 198,000 baht (22,000 baht x 9 years) that otherwise would have gone to agents. My business is going to immigration twice a year, one day to submit my retirement extension application, returning the next day to pick up my extension and get a re-entry permit. I do my 90-Day Reports online (when that's working) otherwise I use the Phuket Immigration drive-through which takes about 5 minutes. I may go to immigration to get a Certificate of Residence but now I'm finding that more places (for example the Land Transport Office) will accept a yellow house registration book instead so that doesn't happen every year. And for doing all that work, I earn 22,000 baht in fees I don't pay an agent. So, yeah, that works for me. As for people's stories about their bad experiences with immigration, I have noticed a tendency for people to ascribe all the fault for a bad interaction to the other party and none of the fault to themselves. I guess that's human nature. Also, I've come to realize that some (many?) people haven't the foggiest notion of what the rules surrounding immigration issues are supposed to be. A large number of these stories therefore fall apart upon close examination. For the real bad experiences, one does have the option to "fix" the problem by using an agent. So I guess if that ever happens to me and I can't resolve the issue on my own then I'll be using an agent. Until that happens I'm happy to keep my money and the nice feeling that comes by knowing that "I'm doing everything by the book." I take the same attitude toward the Internal Revenue Service and so far the results have been similar.

It can be the same or different. If you acquired your Tax ID number prior to having a Pink ID card it will very likely be different. If you present your Pink ID card when you acquire your Tax ID number it will very likely be the same.

I'm a bit confused. You have a QR code now or not? If you have a QR code you should be able to scan that and it will take you to a Ministry of Public Health site that will have your vaccination data. You could try calling the Mor Prom Call Center: "Foreigners who wish to acquire the digital vaccine certificate and have problems with the Mor Prom application can contact the Mor Prom call center at 02 792 2333. For foreigners who get the COVID-19 vaccine from another system from the Expatvac website, please check the vaccination appointment. If it has a 13-digit number from Mor Prom system, they can access the digital vaccine certificate section in the Mor Prom application." I think you've had the jabs as you say but you need to get the 13-digit ID number (starts with 60000...). Possibly the Mor Prom Call Center will be able to help you. They may want to know things like your phone number, date of vaccinations, location of vaccinations, etc. From that they way be able to give you your ID Number.

At least at Bangkok Bank you can make deposits into and withdrawals from a fixed deposit account. I believe the "fixed" in the fixed deposit account refers to the fact that the interest rate is fixed for the account and the term of the account is also fixed. Here's how Bangkok bank handles deposits and withdrawals into a fixed deposit account (from https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Business-Banking/Manage-My-Business/Operating-Accounts/Fixed-Deposit-Account) However, the last time I used a fixed deposit account to satisfy immigration's requirements for a retirement extension Bangkok Bank simply made a copy of my fixed deposit account passbook and signed/stamped that when I requested a bank statement. It was accepted without problem by Phuket Immigration. There was no activity shown on the account, just the initial deposit to start the account. I also had the fixed deposit account book to show the immigration officer which looked the same as the copy the bank made for my "statement." I guess they understand that if you have a fixed deposit book and it doesn't show any withdrawal that the money must still be in the account.

Bangkok Bank cashiers can print a balance forward (b/f) entry in your passbook just because you asked (you don't have to deposit or withdraw). I'm not sure the automated Bangkok Bank passbook update machines will do the same thing, but easy enough to give it a try.

The Phuket Land Transport Office doesn't require the peripheral vision test for some reason. I have heard that you can get a driver's license in any province in Thailand, it doesn't have to be where you live. I'm not sure this last sentence is actually true, it just sticks in my mind having heard it a few times.

Yes, unless you have foreign driver's licenses that are still valid. If so, you could use those to skip the theory and practical test. You would still have to do the normal renewal tests, reaction time braking test, color recognition test, etc.

I would think 1) will be a problem. As I understand your description that passbook has a balance entry below 400k baht during the period when it was supposed to be above 400k. I don't think you'll get any slack on that. Doesn't hurt to ask. I think you have a much better chance with your second account (the e-savings account). I would get a 12-month statement for that account and the standard bank letter showing you own the account. If immigration ask to see the passbook you can explain that the e-account doesn't have a passbook. I guess you could ask your immigration officer to call your bank to verify that that particular account doesn't have a passbook. As far as I know a passbook is not a definite requirement. If you have one they can ask to see it, ask you to make copies from it, but if you don't the signed and stamped bank statement you are providing has all the necessary information for them to determine whether you exceeded the minimum balance requirements for the previous 12 months.

OK, how about that you can immediately withdraw when your bank is open. What I'm getting at is that it must be a savings account. It can be a fixed deposit account that allows for withdrawals. It can be a foreign currency account that allows for withdrawals. It can't be a stock, a bond, some sort of insurance/savings product that limits your ability to do a withdrawal, bitcoins. Any of those just mentioned in the last sentence either are subject to market fluctuation or limit the depositors ability to immediately withdraw money from the account. As a practical matter if you're getting above 2% APR interest you need to question if there are any restrictions on your ability to access that money or whether the money in that account is subject to market fluctuation.

I'm having trouble understanding how one can read this from the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site and not think that you need to provide: 1) a signed and stamped standard bank letter 2) a signed and stamped 12-month bank statement 3) signed copies of the last 12 months of transactions from your passbook from http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/ (emphasis added) As far as which accounts can be used: Any savings account can be used (to include fixed term accounts) IF two conditions are true: 1) the principle cannot be subject to market fluctuation, you put in 800,000 baht, if you do nothing, a year later the 800,000 baht is still there. 2) you must be able to withdraw the money immediately at a moment's notice without any penalty except for the possible loss of interest earned. In my experience, immigration officers greatly prefer fixed term deposit accounts where there is no activity in the account at all (other than interest being earned). The reason is that these types of accounts can be extremely easy to verify. Contrast this with a regular savings account that has lots of deposits and lots of withdrawals. The immigration officer has to look through all those transactions and see whether the balance dropped below any of the minimum balance requirements that are in effect for the year (2 months before application and 3 months after application has to be greater than or equal to 800k, other months in the year has to be greater than or equal to 400k) . If you were an immigration officer which would you rather check? A fixed deposit account with no activity, or a savings account with pages of transactions? If you use an account with very little activity over the year, then expect to get asked how you are living in Thailand. This question is easily answered by showing the passbook for an account that you use for your day-to-day living expenses.

The requirements for getting a retirement extension of stay at Phuket Immigration are very strictly enforced. So I make my life easier by finding out what the requirements are and following them strictly. I find it very helpful to use the website set up by the Phuket Immigration Volunteers that contains very good information about what is required in order to get all sorts of extensions of stay including the retirement extension. http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/ For years Phuket Immigration has required two (2) documents from your Thai bank. One is the standard letter that shows you are the owner of a bank account, details of the account, and the balance on the date the letter is written. The second is a signed/stamped bank account statement for twelve (12) months. I forget how much these two documents cost but is in the range of 200-300 baht depending on the Thai bank involved. Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this. So knowing this I try to apply for my retirement extension 45 days before my permission to stay expires. Why wouldn't you want to do this earlier rather than later? You have time on your side if there are any problems. These are the requirements (as can be confirmed by reading the earlier link). However, I usually try to understand the reason these are the requirements. So what follows is my understanding of why we are asked to do what we are asked to do when proving that we have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 12 months. The standard bank letter establishes that the bank account exists, is in our name only, and that we are the owner of it. The 12-month bank statement establishes that we have complied with the minimum balance requirements. The minimum balance requirement for a banked lump sum method are as follows: At least 800k in the bank account for two (2) months prior to application for extension At least 800k in the bank account for three (3) months after application for extension At least 400k in the bank account for the rest of the year. So, the 12-month bank statement is the means by which an immigration officer can determine if you followed these requirements. But why is a bank signed/stamped bank statement required rather than just copies of pages in your bank account passbook? I mean, aren't they the same? Actually they are only the same if you have updated your bank passbook on a regular basis. If you haven't then it is possible to get Combined Transactions in your passbook. Combined transactions include numerous transactions that occurred without your passbook being updated. The Combined transaction entry shows the net effect of all those undocumented transactions on your bank balance. It is impossible to determine from this entry whether your bank balance dipped below the minimum balance requirements. That is why they insist on a 12-month bank statement. Even then, they often want to see your bank passbook. Sometimes, often actually, they will want to see signed copies of your passbook covering the last 12 months. Why is this? When you are trying to assess the validity of evidence you look at multiple sources for that evidence. The standard bank letter says the balance on the date the letter was issued was such and such. Does the bank statement say the same thing? Does the bank passbook say the same thing? The bank statement says that the balance never dipped below the minimum balances. Does the bank book confirm that? I look at this process as getting the immigration officer to a place where he or she has a warm and fuzzy feeling that the evidence you present is valid. Could it all be faked? Of course. There is nothing that can't be faked (including passports and true love). But how difficult, how much work is it, to fake three separate things: signed/stamped bank letter, signed/stamped bank statement, bank passbook? So, what happened to your friend? I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site. I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years). I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved. You do NOT have to bring money into Thailand according to the rules for the monthly deposit method (65,000 baht/month every month), IF you are doing the lump-sum banked money method (800,000 baht in the account, subject to minimum balance requirements). He would have known that if he had familiarized himself with the requirements. Did he get a garbled, confusing, explanation from the immigration officers as to why he was being refused an extension? Probably. That's why your understanding of the process needs to be as good as an immigration officer, so you can comprehend what in the world they are trying to tell you. So you can understand what the issues are, what their concerns are. Also, it needs to be said that immigration officers can ask you any question they want to inform their assessment of whether you are going to get a retirement extension or not. For example if your bank balances meet all the minimum balance requirements it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on? Where does it come from? Do you work in Thailand? Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on. For example, my account for immigration purpose shows very little activity. The money just sits there, earning interest every month. I rarely put money in, I rarely take money out. If that's all I show to the immigration officer it could raise the question about what I am living on. For that, I have another account that shows money being transferred in on an irregular basis with international labeling. Money being withdrawn on an irregular basis to pay my day to day expenses. Money being debited by my internet provider, electricity provider, etc. I usually will make copies of that bank passbook in case they want to see that. To paraphrase Jerry McGuire, you need to help the immigration officers help you. It's in your interest. The easier their job is the easier it is for me to get what I want, a retirement extension. Or you can pay 22,000 baht to an agent and they can do what you couldn't do. The agent likes this and the immigration officers like this as they get part of that 22,000 baht. It's a win-win situation. Except I wouldn't be happy paying 22,000 for something that I know should cost exactly 1,900. But it's Thailand, so up to you. ????

White goes with anything... except after Labor Day.

A slightly different approach. Get any king size bed sheet set, which will of course not come with a flat top sheet. Get a king size white flat top sheet at Makro. Works for me.

Sellers don't offer an objective assessment of their wares. It's the origin of the expression: caveat emptor, "buyer beware." I'm not a fan of the Elite visa, but then I don't need to be as I qualify for the retirement extension. If I were under 50 and not married to a Thai it wouldn't necessarily be a bad deal. Yes, I do admit that I enjoy poking fun at the "elite" aspects of the Elite visa. It's a glorified tourist visa. It was cobbled into the existing immigration framework, so it's not really elite in any sense. It's made for people who travel a lot: you pay nothing for entry to Thailand and you get penalized if you try to stay here longer than a year without leaving. Some of the benefits seem silly to me, like doing 90-day reporting. In the time it would take me to take my passport into the Thai Elite office and pick it up again I could have already done my report online myself, or if that's down as it sometimes is, use the drive through. In other words, unless they are going to come to my home and pick up my passport and then deliver it back to me at home with the 90 day report receipt their "elite" service doesn't really work for me. (I do understand that doing a 90-day report in Bangkok can be a hassle but surely there are services that will do that for you for less than 600,000 baht). I was less than impressed with their service during the pandemic. With the inability to travel due to covid, they should have knocked themselves out trying to reach members in person if necessary to tell them that they had to get an extension of stay if they were in Thailand in for more than a year. They dropped the ball big time. Members went on overstay, faced fines, deportation, banning. That's not an "elite service". When people were not able to enter Thailand due to covid, the Elite visa holder was one of the last groups allowed to re-enter. Hardly, an "elite" visa. So I realize I'm not the target market of the Elite visa. I'm not an elite. I don't have my people take care of things for me. I don't have my people call your people. I'm a do-it-yourselfer. I don't want people to take care of me because no one has more interest in what happens to me than I do. Really, it's not even close. ????

I think it is an advantage (in other words, you get points toward your citizenship score) if you do have Thai children, but as for as how soon you can apply for PR/citizenship it doesn't get considered. I don't believe Chris Larkin is a lawyer but he has been through the process himself and he is able to put together a very readable paragraph (something a lot of lawyers seem to struggle with ???? ). Your business plan in this response seems much more likely to be successful, although I'm sure there are many details to be considered. If you are on a Non-O for marriage you would be able to work/run a business. As long as you can make above the minimum required salary that should be acceptable. I should point out that all we have discussed up this point is making the application for PR/citizenship. That is the start of the journey rather than the end. It can take a very long time and can be quite bureaucratic. I believe there's a good article on that site that provides a rundown of the typical process. It's also subject to all sorts of delays and periods when simply nothing seems to be happening. My understanding is that you need to remain working and paying taxes during this period. So working for 3 years is really a minimum necessary to apply, a successful application would require you to continue working until you have been granted PR/citizenship. In particular I recommend these articles from Chris's site to get started: https://www.thaicitizenship.com/acquring-thai-citizenship/ https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-a-thai/ and this interview with Chris on the Bangkok Podcast: https://www.thaicitizenship.com/acquring-thai-citizenship/ I really can't offer any personal experience since I'm not married to a Thai and I'm not willing to work anymore than I already have (I'm lazy!) so regretfully I realize that unless there are great changes in the process there's no chance for me to gain Thai citizenship. ????

Some governments do not allow their citizens to have dual citizenship and retain their original citizenship with that government. HOWEVER, neither the US nor Thailand are one of those governments. It's is perfectly possible to be a dual US-Thai citizen, I know at least a dozen. (There's some confusion about a never-enforced Thai law that gives people a choice to choose their citizenship when they reach 18 years old and some people interpret that in crazy ways as if having a choice is tantamount to having to make a choice. That is really non-sensical. Dual Thai citizens can simply exercise their choice not to make a choice and it simply never comes up in the real world.) There is nothing in US or Thai law that prohibits this. The general rule is that what is not prohibited is allowed. No government is running around encouraging their citizens to become dual-citizens with other countries, but many governments tolerate this and have no specific law to prohibit it. The US and Thailand are two such governments. My understanding is Thailand requires you to be working/employed in Thailand for three years (married to a Thai) or five years (not married to Thai) and paying into Thai social security before you can apply for PR or citizenship. (If you are married to a Thai there is really no advantage to PR over citizenship and several disadvantages. Chris Larkin does a good job explaining this on the site referenced before). I don't think investing is the same as working/being employed. In the US I guess the distinction would be captured by the phrase earned or unearned income. In Thailand they even have minimum monthly amounts you must be earning from working depending on which country you come from. I don't know much about TD Ameritrade and their trading policies if you live in Thailand. Except I would make this general statement: absolutely no good can come from your US financial institution knowing you do not reside in the US. No US financial institution knows I live in Thailand, none of them have my Thai address or phone number. As far as they are concerned I'm a US citizen living in the US like all good US citizens are supposed to do. ????

Extensions of stay for purpose of retirement are the same for either Non-O or Non-OA, EXCEPT for the health insurance requirement for Non-OA. So all the things you mention in regard to it being complex, officials visiting the house, photos have to be taken, maps drawn, etc. can be true depending on your immigration office, but they are SAME for all retirement extensions (whether based on Non-O or Non-OA). I've been doing retirement extensions in Phuket for years and at this point it doesn't seem all that complex to me, and officials have never visited my house. Last year I honestly forgot to bring photos of me in front of my house and a map to show the way to my house and nothing was mentioned about that. I will bring those things next year for my extension of stay application because they are supposedly a requirement, whether they want them or not is up to them. The difference between Non-O and Non-OA extensions is only the health insurance requirement. If a non-O is available to you in your home country I would strongly recommend that over a non-OA. If it's not available in your home country I would consider arriving in Thailand visa-exempt or with a Tourist Visa and applying for a Non-O visa inside of Thailand at the immigration office. The process for getting your Non-O or Non-OA visa is different and how they work when you enter Thailand is different, but once you've been in Thailand and want to start applying for extensions of stay for the purpose of retirement they are basically identical (except for the previously noted requirement to have immigration approved medical insurance for the the Non-OA and there being no such requirement for the Non-O). If you never want to have to bring your money into Thailand to get your extension of stay you can avoid that entirely by getting new Non-OA visas from your home country every 2 years or so (if you are able to re-enter Thailand just before your visa expires). But that requires you to have immigration approved medical insurance. And it requires that you leave and re-enter Thailand just before your visa expires in order to get a year's permission to stay. I don't have a problem with having 800k baht in a Thai savings account earning 1.0% APR interest while the rest of my money is invested back in my home country earning a much higher return. I also like that I never have to leave Thailand if I don't want to. In other words, I don't have to travel outside Thailand to accomplish any needed immigration business (don't have to return to my home country to get a new Non-OA visa, for example). Of course, I can travel outside Thailand if I want to merely by getting a re-entry permit (1,000 baht for single, 3,800 baht for multiple) but I really like that I don't have to. Travel for the purpose of satisfying immigration rules never made any sense to me and I'm lucky with the retirement extensions that I don't have to do that. Having my medical insurance wrapped up with my permission to stay in Thailand also never made any sense to me and I'm lucky with the retirement extension (based on a Non-O) that I don't have to do that.