kwilco

With air quality being what it is, I would think Myanmar and Thailand are the last places you should be.

what is the source of the haze on Samui?

This fiasco says more about the state of the American electorate than Trump himself....... Their absolute, blind faith shows them in a comparable light to Germany in the 1930s. An electorate that has lost its mind.

So unfortunately you seem to have boiled it down to race?

"What manner of copy pasta is this? " - what do you mean? The problem is - and a citation for your post this would be helpful - that although various organisations have been promoting the safe system for several years, it isn't actually being enacted.. I've read it before but where I couldn't say - I think it was an ASEAN road safety conference? what was the date? But it largely agrees with what I've written. As I said earlier the government is beginning to spend money of "road safety" but only within the blinkered perceptions they have. If they really adopt it, then we will see a lowering in the death rate and other sets of statistics. Since Covid I've noticed a lot of changes along the roads of Thailand - Armco barriers and points patches all over the road. I think one of the problems is that in Thailand the job of "traffic engineer" doesn't seem to exist - so will or has Thailand adopted the "Safe System" and will they actually carry it out fully?...it is holistic

Road safety is a science scientific facts are not dependent on our beliefs or opinions; they are based on empirical evidence and observations. For example, the laws of gravity exist whether or not we believe in them, and the fact that the earth revolves around the sun is true regardless of our personal beliefs. - it doesn't matter where it is applied - your concepts of "first world" etc are unhelpful and misleading. At present the authorities are spending huge amounts on road building and road safety but as hey don't understand the science, it seems to be having little effect.

PS - there is currently a major investment in road safety by the authorities - but as yet no improvement in statistics - so one has to ask why? Racists hold back you vitriol.

Your assessment ofThai roads does not agree with the evidence. If they were getting it right then road deaths woulds be going down. You cannot deny that the road death rates have not improved for 30 years. I don't think you understand the concept behind safe people. I think you are attributing the archaic interpretation to that phrase. It is difficult to get statistics applied to "new roads" in Thailand but their design and construction should set off warning signals in every respect - you yourself point out some problems as to enforcement of speeding but they also fail in design, marking, road surfaces, signage etc etc...

Not sure you are actually making a point…… “Thai social structure for transportation” – does that even a thing? “expat driving being a significant portion of the problem.” – No I say that expats too show little understanding of the problem. Although in places like Samui and Phuket, they are a significant part of the casualties “ a vast majority of rural Thai’s” – this is not actually the main part of deaths or casualties and as said single issues don’t work. “There is completely inadequate driver training” – as said the E – education is not addressed, “. The safe driving model” – it’s not a safe driving model – this is an example of expats not understanding what the Safe System is – it’s a holistic approach. “fat chance on getting any of these major stumbling blocks fixed’ – I’m saying that to change they must – so if we go with your assessment they won’t. As I said the authorities don’t understand raod safety science either In the end Thailand is quite a wealthy country and road deaths and injuries cost about 4% of GDP – improved road safety will save them trillions of baht.

Who is "we"? - are you reducing it to an "us and them" thing? I'm saying that - and you seem to bare me out on this - that the Safe System is the way to go and most people in Thailand from those countries that use it don't know that is is the right way to bring about safer roads

Road safety is one of the highest-ranking public health issues in the world today. In Thailand it is always in the top ten causes of death. In some groups it is the main cause of death and injury. Thailand’s attitude to road safety is archaic and fundamentally flawed. Throughout the country, provinces, cities and organisations launch road safety campaigns – Phuket, Songkhran police etc etc….they are complete failures, why? The authorities and public’s attitude shows a total lack of awareness of the principles of road safety and the methodologies involved. No significant change is possible until the authorities get up to speed (pun?) on road safety science – they MUST adopt the Safe System What is the Safe System? The Safe System which was developed in Sweden from the 1950s onwards. It is a holistic approach to road safety that aims to minimize the number of deaths and serious injuries on the road. It recognizes that humans make mistakes, and that the road transport system should be designed to protect all road users even if they make errors. The Safe System approach focuses on making a forgiving road environment that is designed to reduce the severity of crashes, limit the risk of crashes occurring, and reduce the consequences of crashes when they do occur. The system is based on 4 fundamental principles: Safe roads: Roads are designed to minimize the risk of crashes occurring and reduce their severity. This includes measures such as ensuring adequate lane widths, clear road markings, and adequate lighting. Safe speeds: Speeds are managed to reduce the risk and severity of crashes. This includes measures such as setting appropriate speed limits, using speed cameras, and designing roads with features that encourage drivers to slow down. Safe vehicles: Vehicles are designed to reduce the risk of crashes and to minimize the consequences when crashes occur. This includes measures such as improving vehicle crashworthiness, fitting vehicles with advanced safety technologies, and conducting regular vehicle inspections. Safe people: Road users are educated and encouraged to behave safely. This includes measures such as driver training, education campaigns, and the enforcement of traffic laws. By implementing the Safe System approach, it has been shown that the number of deaths and serious injuries on the road can be significantly reduced, making roads safer for everyone. Implementation takes 5 main principles – the “5 Es” Engineering – vehicles and roads Education – schools, tests, public information, life-long learning Enforcement – Trained police, court system and practical legislation and penalties Emergency – First responders and universal emergency response and hospital departments. Evaluation – Examination, measurement, calibration of crash scenes and internationally recognised compilation of statistics. Thailand fails to deliver on every aspect of this. As said the Safe System is a holistic approach and addressing single issues has little or no effect as can be seen in Thailand over the past 30 years. The roots of the Safe System approach to road safety can be traced back to Sweden in the 1950s and 1960s To judge the efficacy of the system, all one needs to do is look at countries that have adopted the system in one form or another. - These countries have seen significant improvements in road safety as a result. Here are a few examples: Sweden: The Safe System first recognised in Sweden in the 1990s. Has been a central component of the country's road safety strategy ever since. Sweden has greatly reduced road fatalities. There is now a goal of achieving zero deaths by 2050. The Netherlands: - also a leader in adopting the Safe System. The country’s measures include building cycle paths, reducing speed limits in urban areas, and various traffic calming measures. New Zealand: 2010, one of the first countries outside Europe to adopt the Safe System approach. The country has made significant progress in reducing road fatalities, particularly among vulnerable road users such as pedestrians and cyclists. Australia: The Safe System approach has also been adopted in Australia, with the country's National Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030 focusing on the Safe System approach as a key strategy for improving road safety. The State legislatures have adopted this at different rates and Australia still has a way to go. France: in the 1970s France’s road death rate was the same as Thailand’s (32.7 per 100k pop) today – now it is 3.9 per 100k NB - United States: The System approach has not been adopted at a federal level in the United States, but several states and cities have implemented elements of the approach. E.G.- New York city has implemented a "Vision Zero" initiative that is based on the Safe System principles. However the U.S. remains way behind European countries in terms of crash and death rates. These are just a few examples of the countries that have adopted the Safe System approach to road safety. Top of Form Why doesn’t Thailand do anything??? It would appear that the Thai authorities, the Thai public and also expats, are totally ignorant of road safety science policy and lack knowledge and understanding of the basic principles and practices related to road safety. This means that they are aware of the risks and hazards associated with driving and the driving environment, and don’t know what are appropriate measures to take to minimize those risks. Expats in particular may not know the basic rules of the road, including traffic signals, signs, and markings as well as general driving codes and manners and the more nuanced aspects of road use in Thailand. They tend to believe everyone should drive as they did in their home country. They may also be unaware of the basic safety measures e.g. importance of wearing or when to wear seatbelts, crash helmets, safe driving speeds, and avoiding distractions. Additionally, they may underestimate the risks of themselves associated with driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol and at the same time, grossly over-estimate their own personal driving skills With this self-perception. Expats are far more likely to engage in risky driving behaviours that could lead to accidents and injuries. They may also be less likely to advocate for or support policies and initiatives aimed at improving road safety, such as increased funding for infrastructure improvements or stricter enforcement of traffic laws. (v the cliché “nanny state” used by so many). What is needed is a national sea-change in attitude to road Safety in Thailand from top down and bottom up. It is sad too that the evidence would suggest that even those who come from countries with low road death rates are still in the dark when it comes to road safety and this shows in their attitudes to driving in Thailand. Bottom of Form

as ever completely missed the point and no idea of the reality - obviously at some point you have or will suffer from sub-par medical care but you won't have any idea it happeed.

Emergency treatment is pretty well defined. But people are not machines and every case is different. If a patient receives top quality treatment at the start then as you point out further treatment can be undertaken in the home country as soon as the patient can travel. The problem is that if due to financial restrictions the patient is not given certain treatments in time it compounds the situation and makes future treatment less effective. or more complicated., It is my belief that recovering funds is not as difficult as some would imagine - Thailand either should have a fund for this, or an insurance check or reciprocal agreements with foreign governments. It isn't only road crashes that are the problem, people have "accidents" on holiday (accident = unexpected event?) of all types - in swimming pools, hiking, dining, massages and medical tourism. Most people are insured but it is the few that slip through the net that need to be dealt with in a humane and responsible way.

Agreed - the thing is apart from stating the obvious, they aren't offering any solution - this will happen over and over again......(we all know what he SHOULD have done but repeating it over and over achieves nothing. Thailand has appallingly awful emergency/first responder services and no amount of insurance get get over that but a solution is a system that guarantees patients are treated best as possible first - payment, blame and responsibility comes after that. It has occurred to me that it is highly likely that some of the hypocrites could easily find themselves on the other side of this discussion one day.

So one more vote for let them die? people are keen to say whose "responsible" and why they were driving badly or illegally - but this is a perennial problem - so how about a REAL solution?

What a facile comment - do you really have tat limited an understanding? the amount of treatment (and the standard) received in Thai hospitals is not uniform or even complete, it is down to the hospital to decode how much to spend. Much treatment therapy is withheld due to concerns of cost. What is your solution?

This problem will occur over and over again – it is inevitable and Thailand needs to address it – just stating the “bleedin’ obvious” achieves nothing. Thailand gets up to 20% of GDP from tourism and they have a duty to their customers….both to inform and care for them. The Thai health service is nowhere near as good as people think and ethically it is highly questionable. They need to take a leaf out of western healthcare in these circumstances… If an uninsured foreigner has serious injuries from a motorcycle crash in the UK, they will still receive medical treatment regardless of their insurance status. The UK National Health Service (NHS), will provide free healthcare to anyone who needs it, including visitors to the country. Subsequently, the injured person can be liable for the cost of the medical treatment they received. If they cannot afford to pay for their treatment, they may be asked to sign a form agreeing to pay the cost of the treatment at a later date or the hospital may try to recover the cost from their travel insurance if they have one. In addition to medical costs, the foreigner may face legal consequences for driving without insurance. As in Thailand, in the UK, it is illegal to drive a vehicle without insurance, and if caught, the person may face penalties such as fines, points on their driving license, or even a driving ban. They may also be liable for any damage caused to other vehicles or property as a result of the accident. The difference is that the UK is capable of chasing up and enforcing these things – it seems in Thailand the solution is to moan at the victim and family and then let them die from sub-par treatment

so what do you suggest? - leave him to die?

So what do you suggest?

So if you have "no sympathy" for him he should receive no medical treatment and die?

so you suggest the person is left to die?

How many more this year before people realise there is a serious problem. It's no good for the "told-you-so" brigade bemoaning a lack of insurance. Thailand has a responsibility for the safety of visitors and there needs to be a system in place to deal with people with no i=or insufficient insurance - this WILL happen again and again. Hospitals need to know they will get paid and then either the victims, their families or a fund needs to be brought in to finance this. THe first thing is to sae lives - not keep people in stasis until the money turns up.

That's why I didn't like living on an island.

Whether or this "tax" is implemented, it shows that Thailand has a reputation for sticking little fees and taxes on things wherever it can. THis is not a good image.

....and you point is what? I suppose make them legal and then we know what we're taking.