way2muchcoffee

^things were pretty non-violent until Abhisit decided to shut down red tv. I quite imagine he wishes he could do that one over again and probably will do so the rest of his life.

You're either a non-violent protest movement or not. Just like you can't be half pregnant. Anyone who was paying attention knows for a fact that the reds were poking the government for a month to provoke a reaction, and that the reds were ready with lethal weapons the entire time. Your innocent act has worn out its welcome. Face the facts.

JT, you have claimed in the past that you aren't pro-yellow. So just for a bit of balance, and as a nice tonic for your fellow sparring partners, would you kindly produce a criticism of anything to do with yellows/dems at all, ever. Please, just once....

I can offer criticism of the dems/military/yellows.

1) The Dems didn't play nice at all by abstaining from the rigged election after Thaksin dissolved parliament.

2) The military coup was tacitly supported by the Dems.

3) The coup government formed an investigative committee to find as much dirt as possible on the TRT and Thaksin. They found a lot of dirt.

4) A new constitution was pushed onto the people of Thailand by the coup government. The Dems didn't complain.

5) The PAD and its supporters took over government house and stayed there for months. This should not have been allowed to happen. Perhaps if they'd stayed at Makkasan or Sanam Luang or something it would have been less a slap in the face to the Samak and Somchai governments.

6) The PAD took over the airport in a final push. Whether this was planned by the leadership or whether they went out to protest Somchai's arrival and it just worked out that they had control of the airport and kept it is unclear.

7) The Dems finally complained about that, but it was too little too late. Their 'colors' had shown through.

8) The PPP were dissolved due do a constitution the redshirts believe to be invalid. The Dems didn't complain.

9) The Dems and military joined hands to pressure the coalition partners to abandon the newly formed PTP, thus winning control of the government.

10) The Dems are trying to upset the balance of forces created during the Thaksin years in the police and military.

11) The Judicial branch, at the time of a Dem government, has been ruthless and relentless in hounding Thaksin and his family.

12) The Dems are arrogant and claim to be free of corruption when in fact they are not so clean.

It is for all these reasons and more that all wings of the redshirt movement are pissed off. Each wing has a job to do. The protesters baking in the sun the for these last weeks are only one part of a well-organized assault on the present faction of military in power, the Democrats, and their supporters.

Does anyone know what's going on at Rajprasong and Phan Fa right now? Are they down to a few hundred people sitting around doing nothing? Are the speeches still going on? It's amazing how a Songkran celebration apparently trumps even the most emotionally charged, nationally volatile situation.

Only in Thailand, I suspect.......don't ya just love it here?

I suspect all sides are recuperating from events the other day. Information is being collected. Many meetings are taking place behind closed doors or over the phone. All sides are working out what they will do next and making contingency plans.

^red leaders did not need bodies they were already successful prior to the KSR massacre with making the govt look feeble with putting Red TV back on the air. They were well on their way to more peaceful protests.

No. They were well on the way to continue holding Bangkok hostage in order to remove the current government.

No worse than what the yellows did I might add - what was it 6+ months, then culminated in the airport seiges?

We are talking about what the redshirts did a few days age and are doing right now. 21 people died and there were nearly 900 injuries, perhaps more that are unaccounted for. The redshirts security wing wore black shirts and sometimes red. They carried assault weapons and fired on soldiers. There is also the military wing that is probably not a part of the regular redshirt demonstrators but is aligned with the redshirt movement. They wore ninja outfits and often camouflage, some with red armbands. They are the ones who launched grenades, assassinated a military commander and probably several others. They are also behind the random bombings throughout the city and were a part of last year's Sonkran riots. Allegedly.

Here's a Reuters article to fill you in. And Nation article and a Thanong weblog. There's also an article in the BP that I won't link to. Also there are Kasit's comments. It's not too hard to put the pieces together. This is a major power struggle that could teeter over into civil war if all players are not careful. At least that's what's being reported both here and in the foreign media.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/id...lBrandChannel=0

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2010/04/13/entry-1

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...m-30127095.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Ministe...ll-t355955.html

^red leaders did not need bodies they were already successful prior to the KSR massacre with making the govt look feeble with putting Red TV back on the air. They were well on their way to more peaceful protests.

No. They were well on the way to continue holding Bangkok hostage in order to remove the current government.

If you have a murder case one of the first things you start to do is look for who has a motiv to kill. In most cases thats a good way to start. (havfe I read tom many criminal books?)

Good point.

Well the initial report said "foreigner shot in the chest, for telling soldier to f..k You"

in then was clarified that it was Japanese reporter.

1.How and Who knows what was actually said to the soldier?

2.I really find it hard to see Japanese using this kind of language

3. Unless you speak with the guy, how would anyone know he was in fact Japanese and not Thai, not being racist here, but it was night and person is Asian, really no way of knowing Thai or Japanese.

It then later was clarified that Japanese reporter was shot from the back, indicating someone from the red shirts or an army sniper or the rogue group.

Who has the motiv from what we have seen or heard? Army?-for what?. Government? again why? Red shirts?-no reason, does not achieve anything.

Rogue group to keep the conflict and point fingers-most likely, but again this is just a speculation.

Agree about the Army and Government. If they are seen to kill a foreign reporter they face a huge credibility loss.

The redshirt movement gains considerably from a dead reporter, but only if it can be blamed on the government or military somehow. I don't mean to say your typical redshirt supporter or demonstrator would kill a reporter, far from it. That would be a job for the militant wing of the organization or perhaps some 'unknown force' sympathetic to the redshirt goals of removing the current government.

The government and military have been very quiet these last couple of days. Gotta wonder what their next move is.

Well it's not really all about Thaksin now is it?

There are significant segments of the police and military who support Thaksin directly or indirectly. There are businessmen whose businesses prospered during the Thaksin years. There are many powerful and influential people who benefited from their association with Thaksin. And then there are the banned TRT and PTP politicians. Thaksin and his colleagues were in power for many years. They built up a loyal following from various elements of society at all levels. They also managed to win favor with the common man in the north and northeast, and in other regions in smaller numbers. Not all of these groups share the same interests, but they are united under the red shirt cause. It is clear by now that there is only one immediate goal that all redshirts share - eliminate this government at all costs.

So it's really kind of a yes and no thing I suppose.

I am Human and have Rights in this World and the most Democratic Right I have along with every person on thiis planet is "The freedom of Speech" in whatever country I am in.

Just for your Information:

<a href="http://" target="_blank"></a>Article 19.

• Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
  

This ain't Kansas....

We must remember that 5 soldiers were killed with several hundred soldiers injured, nearly 100 of them seriously injured. Field officers were targeted for assassination.

The security forces were trained soldiers, wearing full combat gear, armed, traveling in APCs and on foot. This was a planned military operation to disperse a supposedly unarmed and disorganized civilians mob.

This level of injury does not come from a mob of red shirts wielding molotov cocktails, bricks, and water bottles.

These soldiers were taken out with military rifles, hand grenades, and launched grenades, with some casualties from sharpened bamboo sticks, poles, and other blunt objects.

News in Australia confirmed that Japanese Reporter was killed by the red shirts not by the army and showed footage of his being shot from the back, while he was facing soldiers.

I think someone from the Red was firing at the soldiers and simply missed.

Irrespective of the facts-he is still dead-very sad

Do you have a written or internet source for that?

The Nation has some interesting commentary on Saturday night's events. Granted, The Nation is well-known for having a pro-government bias, and Thanong gets it wrong quite often, but if true, these articles paint a very interesting and rather disturbing picture. These are serious allegations.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2010/04/13/entry-1

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...m-30127095.html

Also consider, but do not discuss, how Kasit's surprising statements figure into the whole situation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Ministe...ll-t355955.html

^if true obviously military was leaking intel to the 3rd party.

There were early reports of military intel being leaked. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Loads of soldiers have redshirt sympathies.

Or could go up higher than that.....

Yep. This is Thailand. Unexpected things happen. Any theory is probably about as good as the next, well except the one I subscribe to which is obviously the correct one.

^likely scenario and who benefits from death of the Col? The military itself might be cleaning house so to speak. Could be revenge for last years attacks that he lead? Or just dumb luck. Funny thing is we will probably never know.

dam_n. I just hate a mystery without an ending.

Army Commander wasn't killed by M79 attack - head/chest shots from a sniper. I wish the Nation would stop reporting rubbish.

Yes. The Nation is not a particularly trustworthy newspaper. Your source?

Sorry quick question who are the ronin warriors, I've seen this mentioned a few times but I don't really know who they are. Are these the terrorists Abhisit refered to as the third hand?

Personally I don't buy into this third hand idea, there were two armed factions on the streets saturday night shooting at each other so as a consequence lots of people got shot.

Why people come up with this idea of reds shooting reds or of a mysterious third hand I don't know.

Perhaps it's all the video and photographic evidence that leads people to this conclusion.

^if true obviously military was leaking intel to the 3rd party.

There were early reports of military intel being leaked. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Loads of soldiers have redshirt sympathies.

PAD rally to be held at Rangsit University on Sunday apparently. Info via Twitter.

Why Rangsit University?

Because Chula University kicked them out?

Source was Suriyasai on ASTV apparently. No more info at the moment.

Because Rangsit is very North already for the PAD... After they need a special visa.

Yes. You are right. Heading up north for a rally might find them hacked up with machetes by the peaceful Udon redshirts as happened previously. They should also avoid Chiang Mai as the peaceful CM redshirts have been know to murder people of the yellow persuasion.

Agree its quite clear the red guards were armed I believe these are red guards in the photo's I don't deny this but look at this video http:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src

And tell me who are the red guards shooting at in the window?

If the third hand is the black clad men mingling among the reds then who is in the window?

I don't know. A black clad man that was previously mingling with the crowds? A third force? A military sniper? A paid instigator? A redshirt guard? A psychotic killer out for kicks? PAD? A former soldier? It could be anyone, and we'll probably never know.

I didn't see anyone in the window, but it appears in the video that people did as they were using lasers to locate the window.

Who was shooting at the window?

According to the redshirt leaders they are a peaceful and unarmed gathering.

Lasers were also used to locate the Commanding Officer of the operation for an assassination. It proves nothing, obviously as anyone can pick these lasers up anywhere for a couple hundred baht.

Your right it doesn't prove anything, and I don't believe the reds for one second saying they were unarmed of course they were armed. But what I don't buy is that red guards were blowing the heads off red protesters.

BBC correspondent Vaudine England

"That idea - of a mysterious "third hand" - usually accuses a wayward major general of provoking violence through unexplained grenade tossings or shootings.

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said he had issued orders for soldiers to be equipped only with shields, batons and tear gas.

"They were unarmed, so some of them were killed," he said.

This conflicts with reports from a BBC correspondent on the scene who saw soldiers carrying and shooting high velocity guns. "

full article here

Yes. Obviously Suthep lied in that statement.

I agree with you. I just want to add, that i certain that 99,99% of the red shirts would not been aware of if red snipers being placed out. So of course someone shooting from a window must be an enemy in there eyes.

Absolutely. Anyone shooting at me is most definitely an enemy!

http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/u...ticle6942041.ab

This is the video from the dead japan cameraman. Is it only in my fantasy I see black men in the red crowd about 39-40 seconds inte the clip. Thdey show up in the left for 2 seconds.

Yep. Looks like 2 or 3 of them, but it's difficult to tell.

I'll tell who I believe stands to gain is Gneral Anupong, Prem Tinsulanonda and General Prayath.

They stand to gain by taking power away from elected politicians such as Abhisit and Thaksin and putting it in there own hands.

I don't see how the Anupong or Prayuth benefit here. They are both disgraced, similar to Abhisit. Do you think they wanted to turn on Abhisit, kill redshirts, and then make a deal with redshirts who very well may run the next government? Would the redshirts accept this? I don't follow the logic.

Agree its quite clear the red guards were armed I believe these are red guards in the photo's I don't deny this but look at this video http:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src

And tell me who are the red guards shooting at in the window?

If the third hand is the black clad men mingling among the reds then who is in the window?

I don't know. A black clad man that was previously mingling with the crowds? A third force? A military sniper? A paid instigator? A redshirt guard? A psychotic killer out for kicks? PAD? A former soldier? It could be anyone, and we'll probably never know.

I didn't see anyone in the window, but it appears in the video that people did as they were using lasers to locate the window.

Who was shooting at the window?

According to the redshirt leaders they are a peaceful and unarmed gathering.

Lasers were also used to locate the Commanding Officer of the operation for an assassination. It proves nothing, obviously as anyone can pick these lasers up anywhere for a couple hundred baht.

I think its just propaganda.

The Yellow side have one desire.

NO NEW ELECTIONS.

This is just a bit of "saying what people want to hear" - no meaning in it.

There will be no elections in Thailand this year or next, there will be a coup, just like before the planned elections of Oct 2006 when a coup stamped all over democracy, the same is being planned again and there will be no elections. This is why the Reds want elections asap to prevent the coup being planned and executed to stop elections from happening. Thats what Reds tell me, that is their opinion.

That is why they are on the streets and building momentum to push for elections before all democracy is taken away and the people get subjected to "New Politics" being forced on them.

Then why won't they negotiate? Why didn't they accept elections 9 months off? Or six months? If they really wanted an election this year they could easily have had one if they had been willing to compromise in any way. Instead they offered only ultimatums. Very democratic when your group represents at most 1/3 of the population of Thailand.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

Actually the only group that stands to benefit from killed or injured protesters is the UDD.

yr just grasping at straws because yr poster boy mark has been tarnished with a dirty black brush and the dems are being dropped like a bag of potatoes!!

Quite a turnaround!

Then who do you believe stands to gain?

And please drop the insults - they don't help make your case in any way.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people believe the UDD would pay people to murder their own supporters just to get some international sympathy. Because as a tactic it does not further their cause inside. Thailand

Actually the only group that stands to benefit from killed or injured protesters is the UDD.

Then why is it that every time there is a protest movement in Bangkok which is opposed to army involvement in politics they are murdered by the Thai army.

As in 1973, 1976, 1992 and now 2010.

So if the army have nothing to gain from it why do they keep doing it?

Check the video evidence. The military, the government, the redshirt leaders, and even Seh Daeng have agreed that there was a third force in play. This third force assassinated the commanding officer on the ground and it is not clear what other actions they were involved in. However, there is ample video and photographic evidence of such black-clad men carrying military firearms mingling amongst the redshirt footsoldiers.