TroubleandGrumpy

Maybe. Maybe not.

You are right in that waiting is our only 'solution'. But although June 2024 is the drop dead date, that does not mean you/I have to leave before that date. As the lawyer advised, it will probably not be until mid-late 2024 that Thai RD will provide the processes and details. Given that March 2025 is when the tax returns are due, and the Thai RD will be VERY busy for the new few months (years?), it would be sometime around March-June 2025 when those who have to decided to leave Dodge must have gotten out. IMO Thai RD will not be chasing Expats who have left the country for small amounts of tax debts - but you better not go back again ????

Not so as far as I know. The DTAs work on a 'tax credit' basis. The tax applied in A is 'credited' against the tax applicable in B. In general the various tax depts in B agree not to apply taxation on certain income from A (pensions etc.). However, as Thailand has never gone down this path before (personal income tax DTAs), and this is going to take a lot of working out. What is needed is for the Thai RD to advise exactly what processes are in place to lodge individual tax returns where DTAs come into account, what documents/proof of tax applied in A is required, and what if those payments in A were 'tax exempt' (like Pensions), and many other 'complications'. Mid-Late 2024 before any/most of that is provided by Thai RD - maybe.

For those interested - I got further replies from that legal/tax firm I have previously mentioned. I should point out that I disagreed with much of what was stated, and I deliberately asked very provocative questions - I think they are shilling for business from Expats worried about this new tax rule/method. They stated that if you are a tax resident in Thailand and received/earn income abroad, then you have to do a tax return and declare that income. They stated that even if it has already been taxed in the home country and there is a DTA, you must still lodge a tax return and declare the income no matter how much is involved. They also stated that it is very likely that at some stage in the future Thai Immigration will get involved with this matter and those Expats without a tax clearance/return will have issues getting their 'annual renewal'. I disagreed and pointed out that according to the Thai RD website you have to complete a tax return IF you have 'taxable income' and are liable to pay income taxes. I pointed out two things: 1. The majority of Thais have never done an annual income tax return (under 150K?); 2. I have no 'taxable income' in Thailand because under the DTA the amount of 'interest' I received in my Super fund in Australia was already taxed in Australia. I pointed out that the 40+ million Thais who earn any income from any job or work, do not complete a taxation return, mainly because they earn less than 150K PA (after deductions, allowances and expenses). I also pointed out that many Expats have bank accounts overseas into which they are paid their pensions and they then transfer them into Thailand from there - immediately or later that week/month. Those banks pay small amounts of interest, just like the Thai banks do to Thais. I asked does that mean all foreigners and Thais are required to complete a tax return and declare that $2-5 in interest earnings? I also stated that because the Age Pension in Australia is listed as 'taxable income' in people's annual tax return statements, does that mean it will be viewed as taxable income by the Thailand RD. I stated that because it is a Govt Payment it is not taxed (it is a 'tax free' payment), even though the amount paid is over the tax free threshold amount in Australia. I asked does that mean every Expat receiving a pension is required to complete a Thailand tax return, will Thai RD view that as taxable income, and how will the DTA be applied to that payment. I also pointed out that there is nowhere on the standard tax return to 'claim' DTA exemptions or how to provide any documents from Aust or what documents are required - so does that mean we will all have to employ a 'tax expert' like yourself to complete our tax returns. Nothing heard back - and I probably never will. IMO the best strategy is to wait and see what deveops during 2024. It will be June 2024 before anyone becomes a tax resident of Thailand, and it will probably be later in 2024 that the Thai RD has provided all the details and processes. A tax return is required to be lodged by end March 2025 - so it will be quite some time after that before the Thai RD starts investigating/chasing people (Thais and Expats). There is lots of time to pack the bags and get out of Dodge if this thing goes sideways.

This, and all the other 'collapses' over the last few years (roadways, airport terminals, this, etc etc etc ) never seem to make it on to the TAT press releases about Amazing Thailand. This is not a country where you can take things like safety for granted.

I started doing some research on that and it looks like it depends on the Super Fund which you are a member of, and what sort of member account you have, and how they are structured. I remember that my old Super Fund said once it was 'converted' to pension I could not bring it back to accumulation. They also said that once you 'convert' any/all of your account to pension, you cannot add any more funds into that account and must put that in your accumulation account or start a new one. The ATO website gives good info and it is free - Superguide wants people to pay for giving their advice - many of their articles/reports require you to join before you can read it. Super | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

No one knows - is it savings and/or is it exempt as it is taxed by Aust - when your balance is still in the accumulation phase. I intend to bring in smaller amounts, rather than 1-2 large amounts. I figure anything over say 250K might get looked at - or maybe 500K? Hate to think that someone who sends over the 800K for the Retirement Visa, could later be required by the Thai RD to advise where that money came from, and to prove that it is not taxable income. Massive can of worms - and no one knows the details.

I agree. However, according to my advice from legal/tax expert, all income earned abroad is potentially taxable in Thailand if you are a tax resident. He also said no one knows the details, and probably wont until some time next year.

There is no way, even at that time of night, that it would take only 30 minutes. That is right through the heart of busy Bangkok - plus of course there would be tolls involved. However, it should still be about 600-700 Baht?

I make that number as 0.5% of the total force (230K). Probably about the same number retire every year I would think. SSDD.

And someone whining about them.

Unfortunately that could happen - based upon the past proven track record of incompetence and idiocy with regards to IT security by Thai organisations.

Good Point. If this goes ahead with RD, and if this happens with Immigration, it will probably be that we will need to provide a taxation certificate to prove we have lodged/paid an income tax return. As if there was not already enough to worry about due to this taxation change - there is potentially more !!

I would not rely on that one experience to say that going forward (if this happens) that this will be dealt with the same by all RD staff for all Expats in all Locations. I would also say that now you have a TIN and have done a 'return', if this is introduced, then you will likely be 'checked out'.

Thanks - I was not aware of that in UK. That is not the case in Australia (compulsory tax returns). I have looked and cannot find anything that says if it is compulsory in Thailand or if it is not. Unfortunately, like you say, those in a position to stay outside Thailnd will do so if this goes ahead and Expats are nailed by the Thai RD based on incoming bank transfers. However, I am not in that position - it is all in or all out. Thai Wife agrees - no way she will allow 'those bast*****' to take my/our money because I get nothing for it. Malaysia or Philippines looks likely options - so we can still cheaply visit Thailand (max 175 days to make sure <180) and other SEAsian countries. Airfares from Australia are very expensive - as is living there which is 3+ times the cost of living in Thailand. And your point about what happened in the UK is the biggest problem in all this - what if I/we are nailed in a few years. Lets say I dont lodge any tax returns for 5 years and then Somchai at the Thai RD wants back taxes and fines - is that possible? and how the hell will I deal with that? Quick exit - if stopped say at airport that I have to go home to attend a funeral - what letter from RD? If this does go ahead then this will be too much - I came here to retire, play golf, travel and enjoy my remaining years. Reporting every 3 months, TM30s when we travel/move, and begging to stay another 12 months IOs every year, is bad enough. But having to deal with the Thai RD every year - and having the threat of fines and jail hanging over my head - not gonna happen. Malaysia or Philippines.

I did not mean them - they will never be touched. They are after those below them - the well off Thais (and others) who invest overseas.

The good news is that this Govt is continuing with policies that will dramatically lower the Baht, and ther next one (MFP) will drag the Baht down even more. If the AUD/BHT gets back to what it was before the Junta took over, I will be very pleased. Silver Lining and all that ????

Undoubtedly you could be correct, and that would be the case for many Expats who have paid some taxes in their home country. In my case, after learning everything, I have gone through it all and the tax I paid in Australia on my Super is higher than the tax payable in Thailand. However, that does not mean I will not have a problem/s, or that in the future I will not be liable to pay income taxes in Thailand. The main problem is Somchai at the Thai RD who believes that I (and all other Farangs) have to pay taxes in Thailand because I/we brought so much money into Thailand. In that situation - what do I have to do to 'prove' that most of that money tarnsferred into Thailand is my Pension, plus my Savings, and that the 'earnings' on my Savings was already taxed in Aust, and that under the Thai/Aust DTA I do not have to pay him/Thailand any additional income tax. Will that process be reasonable and logical and consitent - not an effin chance! It will be a clear as mud and as complicated as a space rocket - and worse than dealing with the Immigration IOs who are at least experienced with Expats and most can speak English. There will be no 'agents' I can pay that can slip them a little tea money and all will be fine - otherwise they would already be available to Thais. I will have to pay an 'expert' to help me with all the khrapp that will fall on me from a great height - and every year thereafter - because once a tax agency 'sees' you, they will look at you again every year thereafter. Those things above and many other issues that could/will arise over the years are the problem. It is not just a matter of being taxed (although that could be bad enough) - it is complying with the ever changing annual 'bending over' processes that will be the problem. Especially so, if in 3-5 years Somchai (figuratively) knocks on my door and says 'you pay taxes and fines now please'.

IMO that 'condition' will eventually be withdrawn. It appears thousands of (many chinese?) criminals and scammers paid for that Visa. Another one of the stupid Junta's 'global hub' programs.

I am sure that is not their intention - they are after the 'big boys' - but clearly they failed (as always) to read the 'Laws of Unintended Consequences'. How this is implemented by Thai (if it is) will be critical as to who they will 'catch'.

Thanks - good to know.

Yes true. But if you look at Australia's and UK's and USA's as examples they are all very different in the details.

IMO there are only three viable countries for most Expats - Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia. Those with more 'wealth' would also have Singapore on their list (probably first).

Nail on the head hit !! That is the problem - how Somchai the Thai RD Inspector will deal with this. After much discussion and some debate I have formd my opinion and my course of action. 1. I will be a Thailand tax resident on 28th June 2024. 2. My 'income' from withion my Supoer Fund in Aust is already taxed at 15% - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand RD for that annual return. 3. My 'income' in the form of my Aust Govt Pension is not taxable in Thailand - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand RD for that Pension. 4. All transfers into Thailand come from my savings (in Super) and my Pension payments - and therefore under the DTA between Aust/Thailand I have no obligation to pay any tax to Thailand. 5. I therefore have no obligation to complete an annual tax return in Thailand. 6. That may well be the 'truth' - but that will not necessarily be easily accepted by Somchai the Thai RD Inspector who wants me to pay taxes on my 1 Million Baht in bank transfers into Thailand in 2024. 7. Therefore I will be keeping as low a profile as possible to avoid meeting Somchai. My transfers into Thailand will all be in amounts well under the 'standard reporting' level of $10K USD. 8. I will be calculating my Thailand tax details every year and keeping all associated documents in a file, just in case Somchai does in the future 'come knocking'. 9. If Thailand ever makes incoming transfers into Thailand taxable, then we will be leaving the country. In order to facilitate that decision, we will not be purchasing any property in Thailand for the foreseeable future (renting only). I have my course of action, and now it is a matter of wait and see how things pan out. I hope all those saying it will be fine are right - but thanks to all those who decided to research and provided their thoughts and information, just in case they are wrong.

IMO you are probably as 'safe' as anyone can be, if this goes ahead and the Thai RD cracks down on Expats brining money into Thailand banks. Unfortunately. I am not in the same situation as you.