TroubleandGrumpy

I will assume you are ignorant of things like 90 day reporting to Police and annual applications to stay another 12 months and all the other impositions applied to Expats. And also ignorant of all the 'rights and services' that Expats do get for free, without paying 2-5 times more than Thais. And also ignorant of the double standards and dual pricing and all the other krapp we have to just accept in order to live here,m with no legal rights and no votes (and we dont get that 10K handout, nor the Govt bonus programs for encouraging travel, or anything else - ever). And again I will assume you are ignorant of the fact that the majority of Thais do not pay income taxes - nil - and that Expats pay a lot more VAT taxes than the majority of Thais But, more than all that above (and more) I will assume you are also ignorant of the fact that when Expats like me first came to this country to retire, one of the key criteria was that Thailand did not tax money that is remitted into Thailand. Philippinnes, Indonesia, Malaysia etc., still do not tax foregner's income earned in the past and remitted into Thaiand - they either do not do it at all, or they have made exemption and allowances for foreign retirees and those marrying their citizens. Thailand has changed the rules - with 3 months notice. And they have offered no benefits or additional rights to those they may be soon forcing to pay income taxes on money they saved for their retirements etc.

You are an argumentative waste of my time - who claims to be speaking for everyone else - waste of time (again).

Yes indeed it was - my bad

So all the work and focus and money being spent by Thailand to attract 20 million tourists to Thailand is 'worth' only 10 weeks of exports? Your understanding of macro and micro economics and where GDP fits into things is very lacking. Eg. The money that tourists (and Expats) bring into Thailand is 'new' money - it is not 'offset' against imports and there is no large 'costs of production' (although TAT is IMO mostly wasted money).

GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services—that is, those that are bought by the final user—produced in a country in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year). It counts all of the output generated within the borders of a country. GDP is composed of goods and services produced for sale in the market and also includes some nonmarket production, such as defense or education services provided by the government. Gross Domestic Product: An Economy’s All (imf.org) The PM does not go and greet each car as it rolls off the Honda factory floor - like they do for tourists. 300M Expats (there are 100K Japanese Expats alone - they are the biggest number) equals 7.14 million tourists EVERY year guaranteed. By the term 'Expats' (my definition) means retired, married, working people who are living full-time in Thailand from 1st world countries. There are 3.5 to 4 million Expats living and working in Thailand full time - the vast majority are from Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar. Your 'argument' is as lost in reality, and is obviosuly wrong because it is the same 'argument' that Thai authorities believe about Expats. As Janis said many years ago "you dont know what you've got, 'til it's gone". IMO the 'paradise' that is Thailand is being turned into a parking lot.

7.14 million tourists - not worth their efforts ? Get real mate - TAT is being paid a lot of money to 'generate' millions of tourists, and here we are right in front of them. But I do agree about the whinging POMs and liberal woke Yanks - almost as bad as soi dogs at night.

1. Being a non-resident for taxes is something that the ATO determines - not yourself. Remember this - if you are 'caught' (and audited) the ATO will go back many years - and they get access to all your records (all of them). Their fines and penalties can be severe. I knew an Expat (Graham) who was doing the same as you for years - he got caught (maybe dobbed in) and he was forced to return to Aust and he is still paying off his debts to ATO. I know about him, because his story is included in the ATO Court decisions and publications - well it was in 2010. 2. Any money you remit into Thailand from rental of a property overseas is taxable income from 1 Jan 2024. There are many forms of taxable income earned overseas and tax is payable when that money is remitted into Thailand. In the past it was not taxable in Thailand if you kept it in a bank account until the following year and then remitted it into Thailand - that loophole is what the Thai RD is now closing from 1 Jan 2024. The Thai RD penalties and fines are more than in Australia - a lot more - and could easily result in deportation and blacklisting after you have paid the money owed (while residing in a Thai detention facility). PS - for thsoe unaware - if you are blacklisted by Thailand, then many other countries will not allow you to enter their country as a visitor. Thailand is 'joining' the first world and they are now sharing information that they never did before - such as the CRS system that this new rule change mandated take place in Thailand (mainly to stop illegal money being aundered and global tax evasion).

As per my last post - see above: 300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht. That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. The GDP economy you are quoting is not the 'real economy'. The GDP includes all the macro level spending and purchasing, and includes Govt expenditures and spending on services including medical, educational and military etc.

I dont agree there Mike - it is probably actually over 1 million a year (on average). This was calculated some years ago in a media story about the 'value' of Expats to Thailand - maybe ThaiVisa.com too. The average is calculated not just on the normal annual spend on rent and extertainment etc etc., it also includes those big purchases that most Expats make now and then - cars, TVs, furniture, property, holidays, etc etc. I think like many Expats, most Thais see only the large number of Expats in places like Pattaya - when there are a lot more spread out around the country. There was a story recently in the media about a few Expats who has been ripped off in real estate deals on Phuket - they hade spent Billions of Baht. Sure there are a lot of cheap charlies living off only their pensions in places like Pattaya and only spending 50-60K per month on average, but there are a lot more Expats across the whole country spending a lot more money than that. They are in every gated community we have ever lived in or visited - and some of them bought their property. There also are a lot in the smaller towns, villages and some on farms. The problem is that the Thai Govt does not count them - each Province keeps their details and does not report them any central authority. If the Thai Govt actually counted them and calculated how much money theu spend in Thailand every year, things would change. I recall a Thai bloke who involved in the local Thai Immigration in a small Province office talking about how they counted them once - the big Boss said to stop. Thais in authority dont want to know how many Expats there really are - they are worried that we are actually important and they dont like that.

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht. That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. TAT would kill for another 7.14 million tourists - it aint a drop in the Ocean mate - far from it. Revenue likely to miss target by B300bn (bangkokpost.com)

1. If/when you move to Thailand 100% and become a non-resident for tax purposes in Australia, you would lose the tax free threshold. This is the catagory I was talking about - I should have specified that. 2. If you stay more than 179 days in Thailand, you are a tax resident of Thailand for that year, and all money from the rent that you remitted into Thailand would be subject to income tax.

I am so happy that you are happy - thanks for sharing.

Yes mate - wine is over-priced everywhere nowadays - niche factor I reckon. When I was young we visited the Barossia Valley and the wineries sold good stuff very cheaply. Went again in late 2000s and they were all a rip-off - wine was good but the pricing was ridiculous - cheaper in the big stores.

I used to drink a lot of wine in Australia - even had some in storage (once owned a Grange). The wine in Thailand is massively over-priced and very under-quality. I believe that is because the excise and duties and local taxes on imported wine is extreme. But where is the local market/industry that they are protecting - it makes no sense at all (TiT). I have looked everywhere and never found what I would call a decent wine in Thailand at a resonable price. We once went to one of the Michellin 2 stars in Bangkok - they had a few nice wines - but extremely expensive. Whenever we visit Australia we grab a couple of bottles each and bring them back. I believe Singapore has very good wines available - but no idea of their prices.

We lived in Chaing Mai for a few years - it was horrendous some days - and worse in Chiang Rai. The forest burners after those mushrooms do not start their fires until after the local authorities have gone home. They have been doing this for decades and it aint gonna stop easily - they make a lot of money selling those mushrooms. Likewise, the corn farmers do the same - Thais are very good at breaking the laws and not getting caught. But the bigger problem is not in Thailand, it is the burning done in Myanmar, Loas and Cambodia. The predominant winds from the East and North at that time of year, blow their smoke into Thailand. Those countries dont take any actions to stop their farmers and mushroom hunters burning - and much of the smoke ends up in Thailand.

Yes there are honest, English speaking, competent tax experts - but they aint cheap - they mainly deal with businesses in regards to income taxations. Look through this thread and several names have been mentioned, and there are others too. There is no anwer to your question - far too many possibilities. One thing is clear though, in the future if the Thai RD believes you should pay income taxes on the money you have remitted into Thailand because you have not lodged any tax returns, then you will have to prove that they are wrong and that will have to be in the format and structure that they require. IMO if you have investments like yours overseas, I would see a tax expert and disacuss the situation. Not yet though - they are all waiting for 'clarifications' from the Thai RD - and their rule change is likely to be challenged in Court (at least under the fairness provisions of the Act, because they gave so little advance warning).

In Australia the taxation rules mean that 100% of the money you make from renting out a property is taxed - no tax free threshold. That and all the pro-renter rules and laws made it very unviable to be a landlord so we sold our property. However, we have maintained an 'address' in Australia (friends) who forward on any important mail. We also maintian all banking and Govt services using that address (licence etc.). In the future we might return to Australia when we are very old (in 80s?), because of the health system - it is basically free and is heavily subsidised. That may change though, with the current change in Thailand income taxation starting in 2024, which looks like they will tax the Pension and Savings that we plan to remit into Thailand over the next 10-15 years. Hopefully they will not do that and they will make exmptions for Expats Pensions and Savings, but if they do not, then we will either be moving to another SEAsian country - or back to Australia earlier than planned.

DTAs are not the blanket 'get out of jail free' card, that some people think they are in Thailand. DTAs are a method whereby someone from one country can claim tax exemptions and offsets/credits in another country, in order to avoid Double Taxation being applied. It is up to the Thai RD to agree with any claim made under a DTA in a tax resident's income tax return. It not that any taxpayer can give themselves a free pass and not lodge a tax return because of what they read in a DTA. There is no guarantee that the Thai RD will accept or agree with any claim using any DTA in any taxpayers income tax return. The application of a DTA is totally under the authority of the Thai RD - that authority does not reside with a tax resident of Thailand. However. if the Thai RD declares that any form of 'income' remitted into Thailand is not taxable income (such as Pensions or Savings from prior employment years ago), then and only then can a tax resident in Thailand determine that they are not liable for income taxes. If the Thai RD does not provide a declaration/ruling that the income being remitted into Thailand is not taxable, then the tax resident has to lodge a tax return and claim under a DTA that they are exempt or have offsets/credits - it is then up to the Thai RD to agree or disagree with that claim.

Ditto - and that is the issue many Expats are missing when being over optimistic (glass half full) about this matter. Taxation is not like Immigration etc. - the penalties are far more severe and no bride/agent can be used to solve the matter. Additionally, it is not a year to year matter - the Tax Dept can (if they want) go backwards over many years, and then they can hit you with fines for not lodging a tax return, fines for not paying income taxes, interest of 2% per month on those income taxes not paid, and any additional penalties they think applicable. Plus if the Tax Dept decides to do so, there can be police charges, court appearances, jail time, and deportation. As Capone found out, you dont screw with the Tax Dept. The Thai Tax Dept will be asking the banks to advise of any account holder who has remitted over a certain amount into Thailand (500K? 1M? 2M?). Then, over time, they will check that list against their tax lodgement records - they can take as long as they like - several years. So it is not a matter of 'keeping low' and getting away with it - in the end they will likely catch you - and when they do, it will hurt severely. International Guide on Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Thailand | Global Guide to Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Baker McKenzie Resource Hub According to section 37 bis of the Revenue Code, any person intentionally fails to file tax return forms to evade tax shall be subject to an imprisonment of up to one year, or a fine of up to BHT 200,000, or both. Yes I am hoping this matter will be resolved in our favour and that the Thai Tax Dept will clearly state that Expats pensions and savings etc. are not taxable income. But if they do not do that, then only a fool would bring into Thailand any more than is absolutely necessary in 2024. I plan to do just that (after bringing in extra funds before 31 December), while I wait and see what happens regarding this new taxation rule. Anyone bringing in a large amount of money in 2024, thinking that it will all be fine and good is being very unwise. Likewise, anyone packing up and leaving Thailand before July 2024 is also being unwise.

Fair Call

(REPOST) Not only is this probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais. Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them. But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets. This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure. I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition. All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain. And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger. When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here.

Well said - and if you are accused of being a 'fearmonger' for speaking out and stating your feelings about this matter - then welcome to the club. I have said many things many times about this matter in other posts/threads and my position is very clear and is similar to yourself. Not only is it probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais. Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them. But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets. This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure. I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition. All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain. And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger. When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here.

You gotta stop thinking all Expats are like yourself - we certainly are not. We rent a 4br house - we recently bought a used Honda CRV - we travel around Thailand a lot - we spend a lot of money with Thais. Our annual living budget in 1 Million Baht - plus in a few years I planned to buy a new car - and maybe one day we will buy a house. Many Expats also have Thai families with kids that they support - we dont have kids but we do help out others. There are lots of Expats just me who dont rent a small room in Pattaya or Patong or Bangkok and smoke weed and chase bar girls.

Maybe true. But 300K Expats bring in and/or spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year - is worth 300 Billion Baht. That number equates to 6 million Chinese tourists - who spend an average of 50K Baht on a trip to Thailand.

The 'official' Covid deaths as a percentage of Infected people is as follows: 6,948,577 Total Deaths 699,006,517 Total Infections Covid Death Rate equals: 0.994% COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer (worldometers.info) However, there are many assumptions that can be made that could reduce the death rate, as taken from the numbers above. Maybe many of those deaths recored officially were not only because of Covid, but because of comorbidity reasons (cancer, heart disease, etc.). Likewise annual seasonal flu deaths were often attributed to Covid - average about 500K per year - so over 2 years of Covid maybe 1 million. Additionaly, many infections that were overcome naturally and/or due to the vaccinations, and were not reported officially. But even with a 'liberal' interpretation of those factors, the Covid death rate would still be massively over the annual death rate from the seasonal flu, which is about 500K of about 1,000 million infections each year, equalling a death rate of 0.05%. Influenza (Seasonal) (who.int) And of course, the authorities will claim that the Covid death toll was massively reduced due to the vaccines and isolation. Impossible to prove that is a false statement, but it is clear that many things were done very wrongly - especially isolating everyone and crashing the world's economy for over 2 years which will take another 2-3 years to recover (maybe more). If Covid is as infectious as the seasonal flu, then all that isolation and economic disaster stopped 300 million getting infected, and therefore about 29 million people dying over a 2 year period. There was about 55 million who died in 2019 - which equates to 110 million over 2 years.