Georgie-Porgie

Your actions and comments are very Un-buddist.

is there any chance, what so ever that you could be wrong on some of these issue and historical facts. Any chance what so ever?

Hey Bub, many people have been to the Middle East. Many people with different opinions than you, and I am not Buddha, I'm Georgie-Porgie and I insult stupid people; It's part of the job.

Of course I could be wrong about some things, however, I would say the chances are much higher that you are wrong, very wrong and you are trying to hurt a people that I respect and care for.

As I said, Jews or Israelis, have enough problems, they don't need "freinds" like you.

By the way, you said both of these things within ten minutes:

1) I believe in Israel

2) And I hate to tell you, just because I dont rally behind Israel, doesnt mean I'm an anti-semite.

Maybe I should start calling you Doctor Full-of-shit-ski?

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I was an Altar Boy. I am now a believer in God who thinks that probably no religion is entirely correct, but Buddhism is probably the best of the lot.

The reason that I get so emotional about the Israel/ Palestine issue is because so many ignoramuses have such strong convictions that Israel is completely in the wrong, when they have no idea what they are talking about.

If pressed about history, these dummies make up terms like "revisionist Zionist history", which means that whatever ignorant tripe they believe, that they found on the Internet, is the real truth, because as they have demonstrated on here, over and over again, they have no idea about, and no interest in, academic history.

These morons are simply looking for someone to look down on and picking on the Jews has always been a tradition amongst such marginal people.

Sissy-warrior starts arguing against historical facts by talking about something that he calls "revisionist Zionist history", like someone besides he, the gentleman,  and the Neo-Nazis had ever heard of it. Why don't you teach us about the Turner Diaries and The Protocols of Zion while you are at it. They are "factual" too. 

As far as the gentleman goes, this guy has spent months putting 100s or maybe 1,000s of anti-Semitic posts on-line. Besides being an utter fool in every regard, he has no credibility.

mbkudu is right on about the same wave-length. Look back at all the intensely silly snippets about Israel that he throws in just about everywhere. I think that we have his latest example above.

By the way, here is some history for you. The so-called Jewish "terrorists" almost always gave warnings when they were going to blow something up. They called the King David Hotel, which was the Military Headquarters of the English Army, who fukced over the Jews considerably, repeatedly asking them to get all the people out. The reply was, "We don't take orders from Jews".

Boom!

Compare that to vicious Palestinian terrorism. There is no comparison.

As far as I am concerned, just the fact that brain-dead characters like this are so dead set against Israel means that it must be doing something right!

You have been reading this thread about as closely as you read your text-books in your vast studies of the Middle East Professor Dim-wit-fer.

Without the insults, your(GP) posts would look much nicer. Although I understand it is sometimes difficult to hold oneself's temper when dealing with stupidity and ignorance.

Out of the mouth of babes!

Actually the "sold the land" arguement is factual incorrect. The 6-day war was a well concieved land grab scheme to gain more fertile land.

I guess that this is an example of your vast Middle East studies and love for Israel Professor Dim-wit-fer?

You say that you believe in Israel? You might try a few pro-Israeli posts. There are plenty of Jew haters out there doing nothing but trying to tear them down.

With friends like you, Israel doesn't need enemies.

By the way, I forgot to address the main issue, although I have before.

In 1947 the Palestinians were told by other Arabs to desert their land and homes in order to make it easier for the Arab armies to "wipe out" the Jews.

The government of Israel told them that if they stayed on their lands, they could keep it, and many did.

The ones who heeded the Arab call lost their lands for helping Israel's enemies.

They just made the wrong choice.

Funny brain-less-fer, You tell me how "reputable" your source, for your article is, and not to google, but your article was right up near the top when I did; I wonder how you found it?

I don't need to compare CVs or penises with you, I have seen the twaddle that you post, and that pretty much says it all.

Here is what I believe about The USS Liberty from a much more reputable source than ole' Eric. By the way, you can google this one too!

The USS Liberty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.

On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171.

Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.

According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.1 The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels.2 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.

A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.

Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting.3 Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attach้ was flown to the Liberty.

Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.

Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version.

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.6

In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector, a triple ace, who shot down 15 enemy aircraft and took part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. "This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours." The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector's radio transmission in which he said, "I can't identify it, but in any case it's a military ship."7

Spector's plane was not armed with bombs or, he said, he would have sunk the Liberty. Instead he fired 30mm armor piercing rounds that led the American survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. His first pass ignited a fire, which caused the ship to billow black smoke that Spector thought was a ruse to conceal the ship. Spector acknowledged in the Post interview that he made a mistake, and said he admitted it when called to testify in an inquiry by a U.S. senator. "I'm sorry for the mistake," he said. "Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked."

None of Israel's accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.

Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.8

Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.”

Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.”

In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “coverญup.”9

In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.10

The new documents do not shed any light on the mystery of what the ship was doing in the area or why Israel was not informed about its presence. The evidence suggests the ship was not spying on Israel.

Israel apologized for the tragedy immediately and offered on June 9 to compensate the victims. Israel ultimately paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.

Notes

1For the most comprehensive analysis, see A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's Inc., 2002); Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, (CA: University of California Press, 1996), pp. 108-109.

2Rabin, p. 110.

3Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, (NY: HarperCollins, 1998), pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109.

4Washington Post, (November 6, 1991).

5Hirsh Goodman, “Messrs. Errors and No Facts,” Jerusalem Report (November 21, 1991).

6Nathan Guttman, "Memos show Liberty attack was an error," Ha'aretz, (July 9, 2003).

7"Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post," Jerusalem Post (October 10, 2003).

8Hirsh Goodman and Ze'ev Schiff, “The Attack on the Liberty,” Atlantic Monthly, (September 1984).

9“The Larry King Show” (radio), (February 5, 1987).

10Jerusalem Post, (January 13, 2004); Washington Times, (January 13, 2004).

Larry Lek says that the police drop them at the border, but don't force them across. Apparently, he has never been to Myanmar, so I would guess that he will try to head back this way.

I mentioned yesterday that I would be willing to help pay for AIDS medication for the boy that was living with David, but someone who knows him needs to find him a new home, or take him in.

That medication is useless without a stable environment, and someone to make sure the drugs are taken properly.

Larry Lek and another member said that they might be able to help out with the cost of the medicine as well, but we will need more people to make it easy on everyone.

We have to get in contact with the boy as well.

Any volunteers, ideas?

Once again, we see how the people on this board can sink to new lows. Georgie-Porgie,  do you really need to get personal? Is it not possible to have an academic discussion on here without the insults.

I am not a liberal. God, I dont think I've ever been called that before. Trust me, I spent way to many years under arms to ever be called that.

GP, I hate to say it, but I just dont think you know your history. This is not a pro or anti Israel statement. Its simply what happened. Oh, and GP, you never did comment on the US Liberty. If Israel was only defending itself, why did it attack and murder US citizens?

To the admins out there... I would hope that you would lock this post. It really belongs in the bear pit on not here.

Sorry brain-less-fer, but I don't suffer fools gladly.

How can you be so stupid as to say that I "don't know my history" and then back it up in no way, what-so-ever?

All your posts are like this, I say it is so, so it is!

I give examples from history books and then you try to dismiss it by claiming that what I said came out of the ozone somewhere and then changing the subject to the US Liberty.

Why don't you write a post about the US Liberty and then I will be happy to make you look like the fool that you truly are about that subject as well!

Sorry to snicker, but you just said let's get technical and list our sources, and then you say that you read a bunch of "legitimate, mainstream magazines" over the last 35 years and don't say what they are!

That is not technical, technical is when you list every magazine, authors, page numbers etc, and I must say that you certainly interpreted these "legitimate, mainstream magazines" in a distorted way.

Anyway, since we are getting "technical", I only quoted from one source tonight, and I already listed it. It was page 174 though, if you need it.

As to not getting personal, I did mention that the topic of Israel is my pet peeve, that I get really pissed off discussing it, because my opposition usually don't have the slightest idea of what they are talking about, but are usually very adamant about their ill-informed opinions?

If one doesn't want me to get personal concerning this subject, it's best to either agree with me, or keep one's asinine opinions to oneself!

Goat Roper, don't worry about Stocky's lousy attempt at wit. Fat boy can't write a decent post to save his life. Probably too much blubber between the ears!

Well Georgie-Porgie, I prefer facts instead of stories out of Harlem, which btw, would not be an area where you find me usually.

Problems in the ME, for how far back do you want me to go?

Axel, some people need a little illustrating, to make certain situations more clear to them.

As to how far back in history I wanted you to go, since you were claiming that the Jews attacked the Arabs originally, one might think that you would go back to the beginning of Israel in 1948.

Actually, Israel declared Independence on May 14, 1948, and five Arab armies attacked the next day. As we all know, Israel whipped all their asses, and they have been crying ever since.

Liars on this web-site are always claiming that the Jews forced the Palestinians off of their land, but anyone with an education knows that that is not true. Some people on this web-site aren't all that clever, so I looked for something simple that would describe why the Palestinians left their land voluntarily that even these idiots would understand.

This is from, "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Middle East Conflict" (Perfect, wouldn't you say?):

The Palestinians left their land in 1947-48 for many different reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left their land in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leader's calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the crossfire of a battle.

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee, and an Independent Arab state would have shared with Israel a 50th anniversary celebration in May 1998.

I have lots more facts like these, since you are so fond of them.

georgie...shame on you...but if you want to know about the status of my manhood just tell me where yo' mama lives and later she can give you a report...

My momma's dead, but if you look her up, don't forget to bring the silly-little-millimeter brand ruler to measure up.

If the Thais opened up to those voices they, like their Somtam, would undoubtedly gain from the foreign ingrediants.

Thais are not like Farang. They do not open up...that's just the way it is...

Truer words were never spoken.

Silly-warrior, I am just illustrating a point, but because you are such a politically-correct phoofta, why don't we change it to some big, hunky Alabama rednecks. Does that make you feel better sweetie?

As to the rest of your dumb-ass theory, it sounds like you use big words to make up for your inferior manhood. Not much of an argument though.

You should know!

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists, bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names?

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

A casual freind just came back from Penang where he says that he obtained a one year multiple entry visa, and that they told him that he no longer has to leave the country on visa runs. That he can get each 3 month visa stamped at Chiang Mai Immigration.

Does this sound correct?

To each their own opinion, but now I have an opinion about mouse.

Many of us, such as myself come to this forum as a way to interact with other Farang (I hate the expression expatriate) to speak to knowledgeable people in the political and cultural arena, and in most cases to learn how we can help one another from our immigration experiences and stay within the new requirements of Thai Immigration laws.

However, of late I notice that the DEA, Australian Law Enforcement Agencies and countless other foreign and domestic Law Enforcement agencies trolling on this forum.

I have nothing to hide so I must chuckle at their attempts to get people to "call David's number"  get someone to accompany them on a date in Bangkok, while they post from Chang Mai, and yet others that state "this is a fact" yet offer no other information.  Not to mention those that “cry for help from Koan Kaen” and offer no apparent further response. 

For all of you that live here, we know that the 14 days after a Thai arrest are for the benefit or investigation and that is what is surely going on.  They seem to have little and are looking for friends, accomplices or collaborators in the alleged acts and are even resorting to spoofing email to forum members in hopes of getting more wood for their particular fire.

How do I know this?  I can best explain in that I retired from the Law Enforcement field and after twenty years (16 of which were abroad) acquired a knowledge of such methods.

I also want to add that I wish everyone on this forum well and not be concerned even though these so-called “Investigators” can read your IP number when you post and can track you down to you home.  Some of you surely remember that you had to provide a Passport page when registering with CSLoxinfo or other Internet Service Providers.

For those guilty of preying on children, I refuse to accept your behavior although such acts would have been normal 2,000 years ago and I hope that you burn in ######!!! 

For those Law Enforcement types out there watching us and keeping the flames stoked, I suggest that you do your job and leave the judging to the Judges and stick to gathering facts rather than trying to discredit someone on the Internet and through our Forum. Allow the peers of the accused to judge them based on evidence and not rumors and innuendoes created by you and your somewhat zealous collaborators.

For those of you that are accused of a crime, I reserve my judgement cause I truly believe a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt and sentenced so by a Judge and or Jury.

There!  I have said my two cents worth and will now shut up.

mouse, I am sorry to disagree with you, because you usually seem nice and fairly rational when I read your posts on Thaivisa.com, but what you have written here is paranoid.

=Drewcifer,Mon 2004-04-26, 04:08:40]Actually the "sold the land" arguement is factual incorrect. The 6-day war was a well concieved land grab scheme to gain more fertile land.

Oh yeah? Jews didn't buy any land from the Palestinians?

What web-site did you read that that one on brain-less-fer, or did you just make it up? Another scholar!

I have never made a single anti- semetic comment anywhere. Have you ever considered the thousands of Jews living in Israel and Palistine and millions living abroad who are sick and tired of the inflexibility and brute violence of the Israeli

government?

Have you looked at the situation in Israel?

Do you really think that they have any choice other than to be violent and inflexible?

This is exactly what I mean by stupid statements; Why do you think that Israel still exists?

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I was an Altar Boy. I am now a believer in God who thinks that probably no religion is entirely correct, but Buddhism is probably the best of the lot.

The reason that I get so emotional about the Israel/ Palestine issue is because so many ignoramuses have such strong convictions that Israel is completely in the wrong, when they have no idea what they are talking about.

If pressed about history, these dummies make up terms like "revisionist Zionist history", which means that whatever ignorant tripe they believe, that they found on the Internet, is the real truth, because as they have demonstrated on here, over and over again, they have no idea about, and no interest in, academic history.

These morons are simply looking for someone to look down on and picking on the Jews has always been a tradition amongst such marginal people.

Sissy-warrior starts arguing against historical facts by talking about something that he calls "revisionist Zionist history", like someone besides he, the gentleman, and the Neo-Nazis had ever heard of it. Why don't you teach us about the Turner Diaries and The Protocols of Zion while you are at it. They are "factual" too.

As far as the gentleman goes, this guy has spent months putting 100s or maybe 1,000s of anti-Semitic posts on-line. Besides being an utter fool in every regard, he has no credibility.

mbkudu is right on about the same wave-length. Look back at all the intensely silly snippets about Israel that he throws in just about everywhere. I think that we have his latest example above.

By the way, here is some history for you. The so-called Jewish "terrorists" almost always gave warnings when they were going to blow something up. They called the King David Hotel, which was the Military Headquarters of the English Army, who fukced over the Jews considerably, repeatedly asking them to get all the people out. The reply was, "We don't take orders from Jews".

Boom!

Compare that to vicious Palestinian terrorism. There is no comparison.

As far as I am concerned, just the fact that brain-dead characters like this are so dead set against Israel means that it must be doing something right!

Yeah, you start to get bored of kicking the retarded step-child after a while.

Since the thread is about Muslims and now about Israel and the Palestinians...there won't be any peace until there's a moderate in the Arab camp. Arafish has to go. He's a terror-supporter and basically does not believe Israel has the right to exist.

Compared to me, the voice of reason!