oldcpu

I was scrolling through one of the (many) Thailand tax threads, and it pointed to a link on Expat Tax Thailand web page which lead me to a very good Expat Thailand FAQ (question and answer page). The page was very good, but unfortunately I believe their interpretations on some LTR visa aspects are out of date given more recent clarifications. I posted my observations on that AseanNow tax page. Note i am no tax expert. This is not tax advice. i recommend if the above affects one's financial strategy/actions, that one should take the time to confirm themselves, possibly by phoning the Thai tax help line (try to get a knowledgeable Thai speaker to translate for one).

That's an interesting link, as Expat Tax Thailand has a FAQ page with answers to some of the questions asked on AseanNow. I found it informative - and kudos to Expat Tax for their efforts. However there are a small number of mistakes in the answers in their FAQ before that 'ask-a-question' .. (in regards to details of LTR visas and taxation) that I have believe are wrong (likely because new clarifications have been determined). Here are some questions/answers taken from the Expat Tax page: Example-1: Q: Are LTR visas exempt by Royal decree? Expat Tax: There are two types of LTR visas which are exempt from foreign-sourced income with a Royal Decree: Wealthy Global Citizen and Wealthy Pensioner My observation: Actually there are three types and not just two types. Expat Tax forgot to mention "Work from Thailand Professional" is also exempt tax from foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand. - - - Example-2: Q: If I convert my current retirement visa to an LTR visa, do I still need to make a tax return? Expat Tax: Yes you do, it is a different form and depending on the Visa you may have no tax liability. My observation: This is correct but it is misleading. It would have been better to note in the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa conversion. In subsequent years, if on an LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, or LTR-WFTP there is no tax on income remitted to Thailand and further if that the only income there is no need to file a Thai tax return. The no need to file a Thai tax return was recently confirmed by an AseanNow user when calling the Thai tax help line phone number. This becomes important as well in a further misleading Expat Tax answer. And in regards to the different form, its only for LTR-HSKP - - - Example-3 : Q: Can you please confirm that Wealthy Pensioner LTR Visa holders are exempt from tax on foreign source income remitted to Thailand Expat Tax: Yes, the Wealthy Pensioner LTR is exempt from foreign sourced income if remitted the following tax year. My observation: This is correct but it is misleading. It would have been better to note the Expat Tax answer applies to the year of the visa application. Once one has had the LTR visa for more than one year, the 'following tax year' observation becomes a mute point, as tax returns are always submitted for tax on the previous year. Interpreting the Royal Decree 743 to state foreign income remitted in the year of earning being taxable is incorrect. - - - - - Example-4 : Q: Is retirement pension considered income? Does having a 10-year LTR (Long Term Resident) Wealthy Pensioner waive the tax requirement? I receive US military retirement ( ~$4000), VA Disablity (~$4,000), and US Social Security Disablity (~$2,000) monthly. Expat Tax: The Wealthy pensioner VISA has a Royal Decree exemption from foreign sourced income. You still have to file by its a different form you have to complete, which has just been added to the revenue's website. The good news is that US government pensions and social security are not taxable in Thailand. My observation: This is only partly correct. LTR_WP do not have to file a Thai tax return if foreign source remitted income is their only source of income in Thailand. A phone call by an AseanNow user to the Thai tax help line confirmed that LTR Wealth Pensioners do not have to file a Thai tax return for foreign remitted income. Further the only Thai tax form that has a field for LTR visa holders is for only the LTR High Skilled Professional visa holders. The only Thai tax form is for LTR-HSKP is here in Thai language: https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html (year 2024 tax forms - Form Por.Ngor.Dor.95). Further thoughts: In light of relatively recent clarifications, I believe that Expat Tax Thailand should update their FAQ question and answer section based on such more recent clarifications. I am not a tax advisor nor a tax expert. Please confirm such tax information one's self. But I am pretty certain any who take the time to check with the Thailand Revenue Department Help Line will confirm what I noted in regards to LTR visa.

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My state pension is for working in Germany (as an employee of a company supporting a European intra-government organization (not German but European) ... and yes, that pension is available to everyone IF they work and they (and their employer) contribute to the German pension system while working. A mute point: In fact, i did not have enough time working for the company in Germany (as later I became a civil servant of the European intra-government organization and hence no longer in the German system - even thou living in Germany) ... however my previous time working in Canada and my time working for that European intra-government organization in Germany qualified me for a German pension, IF (and only if) I paid the German pension system a lump sum of money (in essence pay them a few months of pension contributions to bring me up to the qualification point for the German pension). So I immediately did that, and immediately then started receiving a German pension. The pension is small, as it was/is calculated on my only contributing financially to the German pension system for 5-years. The DTA stuff is interesting ... but the (legal) language it is written in can be confusing.

I am puzzling over the German-Thai DTA in regards to pensions. I have assumed my small German pension is nominally assessable income, based on an official letter from the German Tax office. After looking at the German-Thai DTA, I am wondering, was i wrong in my assumption? Details: Over 4 years ago, I received a letter from the German Tax Office, that as a resident of Thailand, the DTA between Thailand and Germany applies, and that the right to tax my German pension (which is a state pension (ie not a civil-service nor a military) is assigned exclusively to the United Kingdom of Thailand. That was 100% clear. From that I assumed (where assuming can be 'dangerous') that the German pension was assessable income for Thailand and taxable. (I note at present my German pension is too small to meet the Thai taxation threshold, but that is not the point of this post). So out of curiousity as to how the German Tax Office concluded (what they advised me in that letter), I decided to dig through the Germany-Thailand DTA to find that reference. Upon re-reading the German-Thai DTA I note: If those remunerations are pensions, then that does not seem consistent with the German Tax Office letter. But maybe the remunerations are not pensions in that article. So I then went on to read article-18: That 18(1) does appear consistent with the German Tax office letter. ie Pensions may (only) be taxable in Germany in circumstances that don't affect me. I then continued reading article-18 and read: Again - the DTA states not taxable in Thailand. That does not appear consistent with the German taxation office letter. What am I reading wrong here? Can it be such pensions are not taxable in either country? That would be (an almost unbelievable) first. Typically at least one country does the taxation. Escaping the taxman is not supposed to happen. Is it? Ok - Yes, a present time, for me its a bit of a mute point, as I am on an LTR -WP visa and my German pension is very small, but in 8 more years my LTR visa expires, ... I may have more assessable income then, and if financial restructuring by me is potentially desireable to reduce my tax exposure, I like to plan ahead. Am I misreading this Thai-German DTA? if I made a mistake, if any are familiar with the Thai-German DTA, please point out my mistake? Note - this is far too small (and too mute an observation at this time) to bother contacting any tax advisors.

I'm no tax expert, but there doesn't appear to me to be much wriggle room there.

There is only one answer for that (which you know): "This is Thailand". lol.

Have you checked the DTA wording? The Canadian-Thai DTA, when talking about pensions, says "pensions and other similar remunerations". Those words "other similar remunerations" is a pretty big encompassing category. Does the USA-Thai have that sort of wording as a big net for catching various pension type incomes?

Guavaman did note a number of times the RD official on the Tax help line (?) could not answer his question, so they went off line for a while to consult with someone else. With respect to Expatthai tax ... I will place more faith in the answer of an RD official who takes the time to check than I do with Expatthai tax.

You are right - that would drive me nuts ... if not withhold tax - it shouldn't be in 'withholding tax' area. lol !! I confess thou - I have not read the guide - maybe the guide states to do that. How would that stand up to a future audit? If it were me, and the amount substantial (which it is not in the noted case) I would probably lose sleep over it. This is going to be an interesting year in Thailand to observe (and to a limited extent participate in) as all these tax topics play out.

Good luck. I hope this goes well for you.

I thought your post about your discussion with the Thai RD help line relevant possibly in areas where you did not specifically discuss such. When discussing USA Social Security the Thai RD noted it was not taxable in Thailand and a Thai Tax form not to be submitted it for that. I believe that the Thai-USA DTA notes such is exclusively (or only taxed) in the USA which per Royal Decree-18 means such income is exempt Thailand tax. If other incomes in Thai DTAs are also exclusively (or only taxed) in the source country, and not Thailand, and also exempt Thailand tax (pre Royal Decree-18) than I think one could extrapolate that a Thai tax form is not to be submitted for those. Typically (but not always) this applies to foreign civil servant/military pensions, and to all Canadian pensions (and remunerations), where if one extrapolates, those being tax exempt (per their DTAs and Royal Decree-18) are not to have a Thai tax form submitted to them. Further Royal Decree-743 notes LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP visa holders remitted income to Thailand is tax exempt. And again, here re: the LTR visa, the RD help line official stated no Thai tax return required for those exempt remitted incomes to Thailand. If a Thailand tax return form needs not to be submitted for those exempt incomes (such as US Social Security and LTR selected visa holders), I think it supports a view that such DTA/LTR exempt incomes are not to be considered assessable income for the tax calculation and not considered assessable for the purpose of determining if a Tax return is needed to be submitted. i concede others do NOT share my view - and I appreciate them if politely sharing their different view - but still - I include this as another point in support of my view that exempt income per a DTA (and LTR in selected categories) should not be considered assessable income for purposes of filing a Thai income tax return. Of course this is my speculation - and speculation is just that -the same as everyone elses's speculation.

There are many threads on taxation running in parallel on AseanNow. On one of the threads, user Guavaman reported that they phoned the Thai Revenue Department help line and asked them a number of questions one being: That's good news IMHO! EDIT: I assume this applies to LTR-WP, LTR-WGC and LTR-WFTP visa holders. It did thou send me off thinking of a hypothetical scenario. I obtained my LTR visa in 2023. Lets say in 2033 I elected to switch to a Type-O non-immigrant visa (that is not my plan - I am just speculating). Is money accrued in the past when on an a LTR visa, but left outside of Thailand (in savings) , considered by the RD as income if one has switched to a Type-O visa? I speculate worst case it might be, so i am going to do a book keeping such that I can prove my German pension (which is not protected by the Thai-German DTA) was brought into Thailand when I was on the LTR-WP. And show that any savings I have outside of Thailand is from my pension incomes that the Thai DTA exempts from Thai taxation ... ie Canadian pensions (or similar Canadian remunerations for example. That way I ensure I don't get stuck with paying tax on German pension accrued after 1-Jan-2024 (por-161/162 relevant date) when I bring such into Thailand , as I can show i already brought the money into Thailand. This is all hypothetical, but it may impact my book keeping ,and maybe impact some bank transfers to Thailand.

Yes - and I also suspect thou if one could show they had the money BEFORE -1-Jan-2024 then there is no issue (per por-161/12). Further i suspect after -Jan-2024, if they can show how much their savings grew in years when they were not a Thai resident, and then add that (post 1-Jan-2024 non-resident savings accumulation) to their record of pre-1-Jan-2024 savings, there would be no issue. I think it becoming more and more clear that having financial records handy, in case of an audit, could be essential. ...and Royal Decrees (DTA / LTR visa) possibly complicate the answer further with additional categories/exemptions.

Thanks ... THAT was the tax code section I was looking for and could not find. If i may quote just a bit more: I don't fully understand what is meant by " instead of calculating the amount of tax as under (1) and (2) " but it could mean not being assessable income as part of the determination for filing a tax return (in addition to not being included in a tax return). But honestly - I don't know. I suspect thou it may mean given the bank account interest was already taxed (withholding tax) at a max of 15% flat tax, it not need be considered in any future tax calculations. Of course this would be a Thailand approach. No way Canada would go for such - as Canada wants to use every last cent of one's global income to assess one's taxation bracket. ... But Canada is Canada - and This IS Thailand.

My Thai wife and I remitted +18-million THB to purchase our condo in Thailand back in 2016. We were both non residents to Thailand then. The remittances were flagged to purchase real estate (or a condo). We also noted such to the bank and filled in some form at the bank. There were no questions asked afterward. i can't recall the form right now. I would have to dig it up.

Speak for your experience. I can only speak for mine. I know many expats (a couple dozen in Thailand) who noted that was what they did. They deliberately waited 1 tax year before remitting. I agree. Although we have seen RD officials and legal experts from the RD, participate in Tax Advisor youtube bloggs (where the RD officials were never fully asked the correct questions). Is that a change? Well - I don't recall seeing such videos before 161/162. I agree. I don't have a prediction here. We will just have to watch how this plays out. I suspect those MOST concerned are those who remit large amounts of money to Thailand where such is NOT covered by a Royal Decree (DTAs/LTR) . At least in my chats with fellow expats, that was my observation. Most had not decided yet if they would file an income tax return.

And I would be happy to see it stay that way. But (... of course there is always a 'but' ) , ... but I would be surprised if the Thai financial institutions (banks) are not sending most annual foreigner bank account summaries to the Thai RD ( where this is already now a OECD CRS requirement so likely Thai RD copied on such) . I suspect even before OECD/CRS the Thai banks were sending info to the Thai RD. Was it looked at thou by the RD? Possibly not. Anyway, the RD knows the foreigners exist - but will they follow up on such ? Likely not follow up IMHO, unless something catches their attention. What could catch their attention? Bank accounts with large amounts of money perhaps. Also , large transfers of money to Thailand also need to be reported (I suspect) to the Thai RD. So the RD needs to decide in the past, based on the money involved, if they follow up. I speculate 99% of the time they never bothered. But there is always that 1%. Again , speculation is the operative word for both you and me.

I don't think so. I have not verified your research, but I do know that any government registered account in Thailand is NOT reported to CRS. (This typically corresponds to any Thai equivalent of a USA 401k or a Canadian RRSP/RRIF). Can a foreigner have money in such Thai government registered accounts? i have not checked such, but i suspect foreigners can for some of them. But again, I have not checked such.

Thankyou! i wish some of the video blogger Income tax advisor companies had been as direct in asking those questions. Such questions were not in the parts of their videos that they posted on youtube. And the paranoid/skeptic part of me asks, why not? Were the 'tax advisor companies' just trying to keep this obscure, so to drum up business for themselves? But I need to say to myself over and over " do not be a skeptic ...do not be a skeptic ... do no be ... "

Yes Those foreigners remitting in the year of income earnings were subject to paying Thailand tax if their remitted income to Thailand was assessable over a certain threshold However I speculate that the Thai RD knowing the loop hole (that was closed by por-161), and the RD not knowing everthing about those persons (especially since in pre-CRS days they had no access to the sum of foreigners bank accounts with other OECD countries) the RD may have decided it not worth their while to chase after such people. Plus such foreigners who remitted their income to Thailand, may have been covered by Royal-Decree-18 and the relevant Double Tax Agreement (DTA) potentially making such income exempt for the purpose of an income tax calculation. Knowing all of that, was it worth the time of the RD to chase after foreigners? However 161.162 closed the loophole. To repeat - in short, before por-161/162, the Thai RD may have thought it not worth their while. The Thai RD may reconsider such now. Pretty much every expat that I know (albeit they are not forum participants) and i know more than a few, were relying on that loophole. Except now - one no longer has a legal leg to stand on, if the RD goes after one.

I suspect most of use are much more curious than you as to how the tax forms are precisely completed. Best wishes (and I type that with a good heart) in terms of how this turns out.

i have not researched UK state pensions. i do recall someone stating to me that they don't get annual inflation adjustments if one is an expatriate. This reads to be somewhat painful - and a good reminder to me that i am very lucky in regards to my pension sources.

At the risk of my getting my head chopped off ... lets not go there. We know we have disagreements with others (you and I have similar views I suspect). Still lets wait and see how this plays out.

it is fascinating - I still can't find that in the tax code - but I assume its there. (I tend to be skeptical sometimes and like to find the most official source).