Trump - 'Sad day' for North Korea if U.S. takes military action

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Quit incorrectly quoting me! And quit blaming everything on "Washington". Many nations are involved and effected by this. I've posted many times I'm all for Kim stopping his foolish actions. And against a preemptive strike. But Kim is painting himself into a corner. Nobody else to blame but him. Unless of course you are anti Washington.

I do realise how serious it is when anybody incorrectly quotes anybody else. Look at the post which is "North Korea has developed more advanced hydrogen bomb-KCNA", and I have quoted you, there. Surely, you can't say that I have incorrectly quoted you regarding that they (and/or we) all know that Kim is not going to fire the first missile ?

Actually, from this post, you are saying "and against a preemptive strke".  Oh, so you are against a pre-emptive strike ? Well, that puts us both in a similar position.

So, if Kim detonates another nuke in a few days time, or next week, if Kim fires a couple of missiles over Japan in the next week, you are not supporting a military strike by Washington ? If you was in charge in Washington, you will not launch a military strike on North Korea ?  You will only do it, if North Korea fires the first missile ?
That's great. That's what I would do.

Edited September 9, 2017 by tonbridgebrit

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

But missiles do go off course. It's happened. Reckless behavior plain and simple. And Kim has already stated he wants to arm them. If left alone, that's exactly what he'll do.

 

No easy answers.

But if they're not armed the odds are very much against them killing anyone.  Even anvils, which never seem to miss their targets, have a 0% kill rate.

[MaxYakov]

23 hours ago, Machiavelli said:

Can't beat the ragtag Taliban, almost embarrassed by unprofessional ISIS, couldn't keep control of down and out Iraq, lost in Libya  but expect to beat nuclear armed and highly professional NK. Somebody has got their head buried deep where the sun don't shine. 

Yes, perhaps the US is not a competent world-cop or empire-builder.

 

However, taking the US on in a nuclear conflict and mutually assured destruction scenario is quite another matter, isn't it, since the US has been preparing for nuclear war for some 70 years with some serious nuclear offensive capability (required to provide a credible deterrence)?

 

I'm not convinced NK could assure destruction of the US. The question is what would China do.

 

Do you think that NK's threats could be made good without China's going all-in to defend NK (as before)?

 

[craigt3365]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

But if they're not armed the odds are very much against them killing anyone.  Even anvils, which never seem to miss their targets, have a 0% kill rate.

How can you guarantee he won't arm one? Answer: you can't. Even if unarmed, there's a chance one will fall into Japan. Unarmed or not, it could kill people. Unacceptable to the Japanese. And for good reasons.

[billd766]

17 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

So wait for them to potentially kill millions before acting? Doesn't seem smart.

 

Are you seriously trying to blame the US for this? I know you are anti US, but that's pushing it. The last thing the US wants is another war. What all world leaders want is for North Korea to calm down.

 

IMHO What all world leaders want is for North Korea AND Trump to calm down.

 

I think that most of the anti NK rhetoric is coming from Trump and NOT the USA per se. Any political leader who has never been in the military has the slightest idea of the damage and destruction that even a small country like NK can unleash, let alone the US military.

 

people talk glibly of "collateral damage and deaths"  of civilians and how "sorry" they are that it happened but NOT ONE of them ever visits the collateral damage sites to see for themselves.

 

Of course if it comes to a war the USA will win but the cost to both North and South Korea will be horrendous in lives and property and there is also the possibility of the loss of life and damage to Japan, perhaps the continental USA, China, Russia and many Asian countries.

 

World trade and finances will be affected for years and N Korea with a radio actice hot spot for many decades.

 

IMHO there is NO easy solution to this whilst KJU and Trump are in power, as they are both as bad as each other.

[baboon]

40 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

people talk glibly of "collateral damage and deaths"  of civilians and how "sorry" they are that it happened but NOT ONE of them ever visits the collateral damage sites to see for themselves.

Not one of them who urge that such and such has to be stopped at all costs mean it either. 'At all costs' with the exception of the lives of me and my loved ones. And how easily they brush away the lives of those who will be killed through no fault of their own.

It's always the same. Take a dump in someone else's toilet then walk away and leave it. Then go down the street and do the same again.

Edited September 9, 2017 by baboon

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

I'm not convinced NK could assure destruction of the US. The question is what would China do.

 

Do you think that NK's threats could be made good without China's going all-in to defend NK (as before)?

 

If USA causes a nuclear wasteland, quite close to its major cities, China could simply withdraw it's investments from USA. This would hurt China as well, but it would be pretty bad for the USA's economy.

 

[Morch]

14 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Dangerous if the country they''re meant to  fly over believes they are armed. Otherwise the odds of them landing on someone or something are pretty small. What's more if you reference certain audio-visual data from the WB corporation, a highly successful and respected USA based enterprise.you'll find that even something as heavy as an anvil falling from a great height and impacting on a specimen of canis latrans,  and an undernourished specimen at that, was repeatedly shown to be unable to inflict  a fatal injury.

 

Brings to mind them reoccurring stories related to Thailand's rocket festival. Guess it's not an issue until one falls on your house. Why would the onus be on Japan needing to put up with it, rather than Kim launching his rockets somewhere else?

[Morch]

11 hours ago, IvanLaw said:

I hope they remember Vietnam ? 

So confident when going in    RIP

 

Other than Trump, who's all that confident about going in? Most of his generals and advisors were more cautious about it. Don't think there was much said about "going in" as in deploying ground troops.

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Morch

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Brings to mind them reoccurring stories related to Thailand's rocket festival. Guess it's not an issue until one falls on your house. Why would the onus be on Japan needing to put up with it, rather than Kim launching his rockets somewhere else?

I never said the onus was on Japan. Just that the risk of an unarmed missile doing anyone harm is very small. Anvils on the other hand...

[Morch]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

IMHO What all world leaders want is for North Korea AND Trump to calm down.

 

I think that most of the anti NK rhetoric is coming from Trump and NOT the USA per se. Any political leader who has never been in the military has the slightest idea of the damage and destruction that even a small country like NK can unleash, let alone the US military.

 

people talk glibly of "collateral damage and deaths"  of civilians and how "sorry" they are that it happened but NOT ONE of them ever visits the collateral damage sites to see for themselves.

 

Of course if it comes to a war the USA will win but the cost to both North and South Korea will be horrendous in lives and property and there is also the possibility of the loss of life and damage to Japan, perhaps the continental USA, China, Russia and many Asian countries.

 

World trade and finances will be affected for years and N Korea with a radio actice hot spot for many decades.

 

IMHO there is NO easy solution to this whilst KJU and Trump are in power, as they are both as bad as each other.

 

Donald Trump, for all his faults, is not a permanent fixture. Kim is. Trump can't start a war on whim, Kim can. Trump got them checks and balances, Kim doesn't.

 

Not same same at all. Just a bit.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I never said the onus was on Japan. Just that the risk of an unarmed missile doing anyone harm is very small. Anvils on the other hand...

 

No, you just go on about it not being an issue. Guess you'd have a somewhat different opinion if such tests were carried out over your own house.

 

The chances of a missile test going wrong and hitting Japan isn't high. If it does, even an unarmed one, should it fall in a civilian area is bad news. Not the same as an armed one, but quite destructive nevertheless - your nonsense anvils aside. The way missile tests go, there's bound to be an armed one sooner or later. And perhaps a nuclear one after that. What then?

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Morch

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

Yes, perhaps the US is not a competent world-cop or empire-builder.

 

However, taking the US on in a nuclear conflict and mutually assured destruction scenario is quite another matter, isn't it, since the US has been preparing for nuclear war for some 70 years with some serious nuclear offensive capability (required to provide a credible deterrence)?

 

I'm not convinced NK could assure destruction of the US. The question is what would China do.

 

Do you think that NK's threats could be made good without China's going all-in to defend NK (as before)?

 

No nation is good at empire building. Lookat the former USSR.

 

Great article out showing how China has zero leverage with North Korea. They want to keep the anger focused on the US, not them. Cheap way out.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1001171-lips-and-teeth-no-more-as-chinas-ties-with-north-korea-fray/

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

The chances of a missile test going wrong and hitting Japan isn't high. If it does, even an unarmed one, should it fall in a civilian area is bad news. Not the same as an armed one, but quite destructive nevertheless - your nonsense anvils aside. The way missile tests go, there's bound to be an armed one sooner or later. And perhaps a nuclear one after that. What then?

North Korea and Kim very well know that if they start a nuclear war, it's the end of the regime.. and quite likely end of whole North Korea itself. 

 

In case USA does a pre-emptive strike, it can't destroy the bunkered NK's canoons with traditional weapons, which would destroy South Korea.

 

If USA would use a nuclear devices.. then what holds Russia from using nukes to take over, for example Latvia or the rest of Ukraine? Then what?

 

The whole USA-NK situation requires fast de-escalation. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/08/world-most-dangerous-generation-nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

 

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

IMHO What all world leaders want is for North Korea AND Trump to calm down.

 

I think that most of the anti NK rhetoric is coming from Trump and NOT the USA per se. Any political leader who has never been in the military has the slightest idea of the damage and destruction that even a small country like NK can unleash, let alone the US military.

 

people talk glibly of "collateral damage and deaths"  of civilians and how "sorry" they are that it happened but NOT ONE of them ever visits the collateral damage sites to see for themselves.

 

Of course if it comes to a war the USA will win but the cost to both North and South Korea will be horrendous in lives and property and there is also the possibility of the loss of life and damage to Japan, perhaps the continental USA, China, Russia and many Asian countries.

 

World trade and finances will be affected for years and N Korea with a radio actice hot spot for many decades.

 

IMHO there is NO easy solution to this whilst KJU and Trump are in power, as they are both as bad as each other.

Agreed. Most would like Trump and Kim to calm down. But place blame properly. Trump didn't start this. Kim did.

 

Don't forget all 15 members of the United nations security council voted for the last round of sanctions.

 

Many presidents have visited war zones and seen the destruction caused. Many. Your comment is off the mark.

 

There is no solution as long as Kim is in power. Trump isn't a dictator like Kim. Lots of checks and balances in place.

[craigt3365]

50 minutes ago, baboon said:

Not one of them who urge that such and such has to be stopped at all costs mean it either. 'At all costs' with the exception of the lives of me and my loved ones. And how easily they brush away the lives of those who will be killed through no fault of their own.

It's always the same. Take a dump in someone else's toilet then walk away and leave it. Then go down the street and do the same again.

What about North Korea, who's been taking a dump in many countries for years and profiting from it? Ruining people's lives in the process.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/kim-jong-un-breaking-bad-the-secret-world-of-north-korean-meth

Quote

Kim Jong-un Breaking Bad: The Secret World of North Korean Meth

Despite shutdowns, crackdowns, and sanctions, Pyongyang’s methamphetamine is still flooding northeastern China.

Great country you are supporting.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed. Most would like Trump and Kim to calm down. But place blame properly. Trump didn't start this. Kim did.

 

Don't forget all 15 members of the United nations security council voted for the last round of sanctions.

Nobody really cares, who started the whole thing at the end of the world.

 

What is now required, is for both sides to behave like adults and start talking. There has been crazy rhetoric from both sides. The only solution is to talk this thing over. 

 

- Kim will stay in power

- North Korea can keep it's nukes

- North Korea will limit it's missiles range to certain distance

- North Korea stops nuclear test

- USA and South Korea stop doing provocative military drills near North Korea

 

 

 

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Nobody really cares, who started the whole thing at the end of the world.

 

What is now required, is for both sides to behave like adults and start talking. There has been crazy rhetoric from both sides. The only solution is to talk this thing over. 

 

- Kim will stay in power

- North Korea can keep it's nukes

- North Korea will limit it's missiles range to certain distance

- North Korea stops nuclear test

- USA and South Korea stop doing provocative military drills near North Korea

Talk has been going on for decades. And it's solved nothing other than getting us to where we are today.

 

No easy answers. Due to Kim.

[elliss]

  When Nuclear  missiles are fired , China and Russia will support N.Korea.

   USofA .  RIP .

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, oilinki said:

North Korea and Kim very well know that if they start a nuclear war, it's the end of the regime.. and quite likely end of whole North Korea itself. 

 

In case USA does a pre-emptive strike, it can't destroy the bunkered NK's canoons with traditional weapons, which would destroy South Korea.

 

If USA would use a nuclear devices.. then what holds Russia from using nukes to take over, for example Latvia or the rest of Ukraine? Then what?

 

The whole USA-NK situation requires fast de-escalation. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/08/world-most-dangerous-generation-nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

 

 

Assertions regarding what Kim (not, worth pointing out, NK) will or will not do, how he sees things etc - these aren't facts. Mostly, they are reflection of the reasoning (and perhaps, hopes) of those repeating them on and on. Kim can miscalculate, read the situation wrong, or let his paranoia take over. Predicting the actions of one man, with limited access to information is tricky business.

 

I have no doubt that US intelligence and military chiefs are well aware of the problems associated with conducting a preemptive strike, and chances of pulling it off. That said, I'm also quite positive that it's not as simplistic as "can't be done" with conventional weapons vs. use tactical nuclear weapons.

 

Deescalation is not the same as backing down and letting Kim do whatever he wants. Most posters have a lot to say about what the US needs to do in order to calm things down, relatively little input with regard to what's required of NK (or rather, Kim) and how this could be brought about.

 

 

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

Yes, perhaps the US is not a competent world-cop or empire-builder.

 

However, taking the US on in a nuclear conflict and mutually assured destruction scenario is quite another matter, isn't it, since the US has been preparing for nuclear war for some 70 years with some serious nuclear offensive capability (required to provide a credible deterrence)?

 

I'm not convinced NK could assure destruction of the US. The question is what would China do.

 

Do you think that NK's threats could be made good without China's going all-in to defend NK (as before)?

 

NK's threats are not serious, they were just uttered after the US threatened NK with war after a ballistic missile test. This is a very good example of 2 hotheads showing eachother who has the biggest. And we know that from Trump's hands, so does not look good for him.

[ELVIS123456]

I just cant believe how many experts there are on TV claiming to know exactly what Trump should and should not do, and why, and how. Amazing. Clearly the Thailand PM needs to be made aware of the expertise that exists right here. Close down the UN and make Thailand into the World Hub of Strategic Military Planning and Geopolitics Expertise.

 

Trump is getting criticised because he won the election and is doing something about NK (besides give them money).  If NK launches a missile over America, Trump will retaliate and blow the entire NK military infrastructure away - just like Iraq but way more. Japan is ready to respond if NK keeps doing it over their country, and will respond if one lands on Japan. What Sth Korea would do if one goes their way or lands there is also unknown. What those events and many other scenarios could lead to is unknown.

 

If you were a liberal politician who wants to always been seen as good and doing the right thing, then the answer has been to do nothing. Nothing can go wrong or work out the wrong way, if you do nothing.  Clinton and Obama did this, and gave NK money and trade incentives, and nothing hapenned. Bush 2 wanted to take action on NK, but he was otherwise busy interfering in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Trump is taking action, and is lining up all the ducks so that if/when something goes wrong, he will be ready to take military action. But he will try to work with UN and China et al (as he is doing now) to talk NK down, while getting ready to annihilate their military at the same time. Unlike Bush 2 who went through all sorts of bureaucratic crap and inadequate preparations, Trump is setting things up to strike quickly and when USA is ready - while making sure that NK knows and understands that so hopefully they will 'settle down'.  Lets hope that unlike Bush 1 with Saddam, that NK can be 'talked down before it does escalate into a war.  

 

Trump is risking war in order to achieve a better outcome than 20 years of appeasements and sanctions that have not worked, and which could very easily result in a war starting that escalates across several countries before USA is ready to act. 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Talk has been going on for decades. And it's solved nothing other than getting us to where we are today.

 

No easy answers. Due to Kim.

Let's not forget there hasn't been active war. I think that itself is a major achievement. 

[sweatalot]

17 minutes ago, elliss said:

  When Nuclear  missiles are fired , China and Russia will support N.Korea.

   USofA .  RIP .

No they will not.

They have enough common sense to understand this would be their end as well.

They will not risk their countries and the lives of their families for a stupid dictator

in a small  spot of the world that nobody needs.

May be they would even join on the US side in order to make a fast end  and avoid escalation

and minimize nuclear fallout.

 

North Korea  RIP

Edited September 9, 2017 by sweatalot

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Nobody really cares, who started the whole thing at the end of the world.

 

What is now required, is for both sides to behave like adults and start talking. There has been crazy rhetoric from both sides. The only solution is to talk this thing over. 

 

- Kim will stay in power

- North Korea can keep it's nukes

- North Korea will limit it's missiles range to certain distance

- North Korea stops nuclear test

- USA and South Korea stop doing provocative military drills near North Korea

 

 

 

 

NK can keep it's non-provocative artillery trained on Seoul, but SK is not to conduct "provocative" military drills with the US near NK. Sounds legit. Add to that, pressure to remove THAAD, which will mount if Kim nominally agrees to such terms. Prepare for a re-run of a similar scenario in a few years.

 

I think the main conclusion is that Kim will have to go. Not getting into the how or when, this isn't the point. But there is nothing in the current crisis that is beneficial to NK as a whole. It's about Kim.

 

As long as he wasn't a nuclear threat, he was manageable. Tolerated. But even if this crisis will be resolved, doubt that any of those involved - US, the PRC, Russia, SK and even some of NK's elites will see much value in him staying on.

 

May take time, but the writing is on the wall.

[MaxYakov]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

NK's threats are not serious, they were just uttered after the US threatened NK with war after a ballistic missile test. This is a very good example of 2 hotheads showing eachother who has the biggest. And we know that from Trump's hands, so does not look good for him.

"Trump's hands"! Good one! Are you expecting fisticuffs action between Kim and Trump? It should be obvious who's got the "biggest" where it counts. The only real issue is the collateral damage and potential (literally, perhaps) fallout.

 

Make ridiculous statements about Trump all you want, but don't forget that he is Commander-in-Chief of a well-armed and well-trained, ship collisions notwithstanding, military organization and he has already acted impulsively and extremely with US military assets.

[baboon]

5 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

I just cant believe how many experts there are on TV claiming to know exactly what Trump should and should not do, and why, and how. Amazing. Clearly the Thailand PM needs to be made aware of the expertise that exists right here. Close down the UN and make Thailand into the World Hub of Strategic Military Planning and Geopolitics Expertise.

 

Trump is getting criticised because he won the election and is doing something about NK (besides give them money).  If NK launches a missile over America, Trump will retaliate and blow the entire NK military infrastructure away - just like Iraq but way more. Japan is ready to respond if NK keeps doing it over their country, and will respond if one lands on Japan. What Sth Korea would do if one goes their way or lands there is also unknown. What those events and many other scenarios could lead to is unknown.

 

If you were a liberal politician who wants to always been seen as good and doing the right thing, then the answer has been to do nothing. Nothing can go wrong or work out the wrong way, if you do nothing.  Clinton and Obama did this, and gave NK money and trade incentives, and nothing hapenned. Bush 2 wanted to take action on NK, but he was otherwise busy interfering in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Trump is taking action, and is lining up all the ducks so that if/when something goes wrong, he will be ready to take military action. But he will try to work with UN and China et al (as he is doing now) to talk NK down, while getting ready to annihilate their military at the same time. Unlike Bush 2 who went through all sorts of bureaucratic crap and inadequate preparations, Trump is setting things up to strike quickly and when USA is ready - while making sure that NK knows and understands that so hopefully they will 'settle down'.  Lets hope that unlike Bush 1 with Saddam, that NK can be 'talked down before it does escalate into a war.  

 

Trump is risking war in order to achieve a better outcome than 20 years of appeasements and sanctions that have not worked, and which could very easily result in a war starting that escalates across several countries before USA is ready to act. 

 

Got as far the first sentence in the second paragraph before realising this was a Trump hagiography that could easily have been written by a word generator. Not for me, thanks.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

NK's threats are not serious, they were just uttered after the US threatened NK with war after a ballistic missile test. This is a very good example of 2 hotheads showing eachother who has the biggest. And we know that from Trump's hands, so does not look good for him.

 

You have no idea is Kim's threats aren't serious. And even if they weren't to begin with, what if he miscalculated and acts upon them?

 

[baboon]

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

NK's threats are not serious, they were just uttered after the US threatened NK with war after a ballistic missile test. This is a very good example of 2 hotheads showing eachother who has the biggest. And we know that from Trump's hands, so does not look good for him.

Threats of retaliation not preemption, let us not forget... Notice the warmongers always leave out that part.

Edited September 9, 2017 by baboon

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

I just cant believe how many experts there are on TV claiming to know exactly what Trump should and should not do, and why, and how. Amazing. Clearly the Thailand PM needs to be made aware of the expertise that exists right here. Close down the UN and make Thailand into the World Hub of Strategic Military Planning and Geopolitics Expertise.

 

Trump is getting criticised because he won the election and is doing something about NK (besides give them money).  If NK launches a missile over America, Trump will retaliate and blow the entire NK military infrastructure away - just like Iraq but way more. Japan is ready to respond if NK keeps doing it over their country, and will respond if one lands on Japan. What Sth Korea would do if one goes their way or lands there is also unknown. What those events and many other scenarios could lead to is unknown.

 

If you were a liberal politician who wants to always been seen as good and doing the right thing, then the answer has been to do nothing. Nothing can go wrong or work out the wrong way, if you do nothing.  Clinton and Obama did this, and gave NK money and trade incentives, and nothing hapenned. Bush 2 wanted to take action on NK, but he was otherwise busy interfering in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Trump is taking action, and is lining up all the ducks so that if/when something goes wrong, he will be ready to take military action. But he will try to work with UN and China et al (as he is doing now) to talk NK down, while getting ready to annihilate their military at the same time. Unlike Bush 2 who went through all sorts of bureaucratic crap and inadequate preparations, Trump is setting things up to strike quickly and when USA is ready - while making sure that NK knows and understands that so hopefully they will 'settle down'.  Lets hope that unlike Bush 1 with Saddam, that NK can be 'talked down before it does escalate into a war.  

 

Trump is risking war in order to achieve a better outcome than 20 years of appeasements and sanctions that have not worked, and which could very easily result in a war starting that escalates across several countries before USA is ready to act. 

 

 

Going on about know-it-all-experts-analyzing-the-situation, continues to provide a version of his own....