Ex-girlfriend wants to take my daughter to Sweden.

[anon345535]

8+ years ago I was very grateful for the invaluable information acquired from this forum which assisted me in being granted joint custody of my daughter after a break-up between her mother and I. 

 

I was granted custody of my daughter during the week, and her mother was at weekends. I never forced this - to be honest I didn't need to as my daughter hated staying with her mother and after a few hours I would be called to come and collect her.

Her mother has played very little, if any role in her daughter's life for the past 8 years and she has been under my supervision 95% of the time, although I often encouraged her to stay with her cousins of a similar age.

 

4 years ago the ex-gf moved to Sweden as an economic migrant and only returns to Thailand for 5 weeks during Songkran. Of course I allow my daughter to stay with her the entire time.

Now the ex has recently found another fool to finance her champagne lifestyle she has increased her efforts to entice my daughter there with the promise of untold riches lol.

 

Now, my daughter says she would like to go, and I am happy for her to do so, but I would like to know what I could be getting into, so have a few questions.

 

If I deny permission for this to happen is it likely a court would overrule?

What would happen if my ex takes her against my wishes? (I have both of my daughter's passports).

Could she apply for a new Thai passport without my consent.

Would she be stopped at the airport and questioned? (Daughter has my surname).

What could happen if she made it to Sweden unlawfully?

And finally, if I gave permission would it be possible in the future for my ex to be granted sole custody by the Swedish government (just saying that sounds ridiculous).

 

I know I'm asking a lot, but this scenario could well materialize next Songkran so any information, experiences, or links would be massively appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

*Forgot to mention - I am British, not Swedish.

Edited September 10, 2017 by c411um

[cooked]

I am in a similar situation although not as far along the road as you are. (Grandson actually).

I recommend another visit to a lawyer so he can explain the situation to you, what rights you have. Thais automatically assume that the mother can take her children any time they want, despite any court documents concerning custody.

How old is the daughter? I would take a firm stand on this if she is under 18, if she is over eighteen then it's up to her, she will leave some time anyway. All you can do then is warn her about the big bad world out there.

[inThailand]

Just a question. Could this just be a ploy from your exgf to extract money from you? She's really not interested in taking the daughter with? Not that uncommon here.

[playyer]

I dont know the precise law in Sweden, but I am a Swedish citizen. Sounds like your x girlfriend is a Swedish citizen. I doubt a Thai lawyer could give you the right info about this, you need to ask a Swedish lawyer, but my intuition says that Sweden will not do anything to try to part a mother and her child regardless of the law decisions you had in Thailand. Could be that a whole new legal process will be started there if your ex decides to not return your child. Ask a Swedish lawyer for advice. 

[davidst01]

Tell your daughter the weather and food in Sweden is terrible. And she will never be able to speak the language. Tell her the realities. It will be hell...

[mikosan]

Please excuse my cynicism, but I see this all turning out badly.  That said, there is a lot of detail missing which makes an informed opinion difficult.  I would be tempted to try to persuade her not to go, saying that there would be no issue when she is 18, when it would be up to her.  Good luck.  

[peterb17]

It's all so easy to produce yet another child - most animals go to heaven and earth to protect their offspring.

We live in a world where people move from country to country- no one seems to care about the kids- it's all me , me , me- what happened to the rather old fashioned values of my parent's  grandparent's  generation - maybe sacrifice a bit of happiness over the security of the children? 

 

[FritsSikkink]

I think you should go talk to a Thai lawyer to get full custody as her mother only visits her 5 weeks a year. That would improve your odds if there is any hassle later.

[realenglish1]

You are here and so is your daughter Your ex has very little authority over her I would not allow her to go otherwise you will never see her again

[Jimmyjames120]

I don't think she can take the child out of the country without a letter of consent from the father, my wife needed this to bring my son to visit when I worked in Italy, something to check anyway.

[laislica]

On 10/09/2017 at 9:15 AM, c411um said:

Now the ex has recently found another fool to finance her champagne lifestyle she has increased her efforts to entice my daughter there with the promise of untold riches lol.

 

15 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I think you should go talk to a Thai lawyer to get full custody as her mother only visits her 5 weeks a year. That would improve your odds if there is any hassle later.

 

8 hours ago, inThailand said:

Just a question. Could this just be a ploy from your exgf to extract money from you? She's really not interested in taking the daughter with? Not that uncommon here.

 

2 hours ago, mikosan said:

Please excuse my cynicism, but I see this all turning out badly.  That said, there is a lot of detail missing which makes an informed opinion difficult.  I would be tempted to try to persuade her not to go, saying that there would be no issue when she is 18, when it would be up to her.  Good luck.  

 

Oh boy - what a mess ex relationships can turn into.

 

If you can get full custody  you would be in a much better position IMHO but even then. if the ex manages to persuade your daughter to go - what can you do. Lose, lose.

 

Try asking her for money to see just how committed she is to taking care of her daughter(and how wealthy).

I mean, it could be genuine?

If her new fool is loaded and generous, your ex might feel that her daughter would be better off in the long term if she moved to Sweden.

That would be something you need to establish.

 

I am in a different situation to you because I'm 75, wife is 55 and her son 27.

He has a degree and is in well paid work, even with prospects but, we spend half the year or more in Spain and have done for almost 5 years.

Long enough for mum to see that even in the current country wide financial crisis, life might be better for him here.....

Personally, I don't think so because, at 27, he has lots of family and friends around him and his centre of life is Thailand and though I am generous, I'm not loaded......

If he moved to Spain, he would have no family (except Mum) and no friends.

We live in an area with little work so he would likely have to live 600Km or more away to find the sort of employment he would need.....

A new language and culture to learn etc.

Not to mention that he would always be a foreigner here unless he gave up his Thai citizenship?

Just a few points to help you persuade your daughter that all that glitters is not gold.

 

Best of luck with your very difficult situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dene16]

Too many people here are trying to destroy your relationship with your daughter without realising it, Idiots(but mean well)

I understand your apprehension of the matter but it is delicate one. if you refuse now and the next time she will likely rebel as she gets older, in effect you will be driving your daughter to her mother.

You have joint custody giving your ex the same rights as you, however a court in Sweden or UK will look at the best interests of the child. As she has lived with you for the last 9 years it would be detrimental for her to remain anywhere else (that won't be any help if the worst case scenario should happen)

Only you know the mentality of her mother. If you decide that you do not wish for her to go, as you are scared she will try to keep her, you will need to explain that to your daughter however young. 

Does your ex work, how will see look after your daughter, lots of unknown scenario's

It is only natural that at some point in her life she would want to see and spend time with her mother. For some children its the point when they finally decide they no longer wish to see the other parent (namely her mother)

This is a decision that only you can make but do not just say no without telling her that she can go when she is older.

All cases are not the same but my daughter came to live with me as she could not live with her mother who  loved her very much . I Always stood by her mother in that respect and now they are inseparable and we are all very happy.

Its delicate because she is a at very impressionable age

This may not help but your heart needs to tell you what is the best decision. A lawyer can only give you a few legal aspects which will not really help you 

Just realised you are in Thailand which will not help matters as UK law may no longer be applicable

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Dene16
additional information

[Dene16]

1 hour ago, Jimmyjames120 said:

I don't think she can take the child out of the country without a letter of consent from the father, my wife needed this to bring my son to visit when I worked in Italy, something to check anyway.

This is the case in Thailand if not married but on the birth certificate

They have joint custody and are under UK/ Swedish law so no problem although he mentions ex girl friend, not wife, so not sure

New law in UK,  about 10 years ago, states all fathers on birh certificate have guardianship. Not the case before. I had to get this because  when i took my daughter on holiday if she need something like a blood transfusion it can only be given by a guardian 

We were not married

It is not clear if he is in the UK or Thailand, after reading again it seems Thailand. As she moved to Sweden as a migrant i presume they were also married. Not sure what an economic migrant is

Not enough information 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Dene16
additional information

[laislica]

26 minutes ago, Dene16 said:

Too many people here are trying to destroy your relationship with your daughter without realising it, Idiots(but mean well)

I understand your apprehension of the matter but it is delicate one. if you refuse now and the next time she will likely rebel as she gets older, in effect you will be driving your daughter to her mother.

You have joint custody giving your ex the same rights as you, however a court in Sweden or UK will look at the best interests of the child. As she has lived with you for the last 9 years it would be detrimental for her to remain anywhere else (that won't be any help if the worst case scenario should happen)

Only you know the mentality of her mother. If you decide that you do not wish for her to go, as you are scared she will try to keep her, you will need to explain that to your daughter however young. 

Does your ex work, how will see look after your daughter, lots of unknown scenario's

It is only natural that at some point in her life she would want to see and spend time with her mother. For some children its the point when they finally decide they no longer wish to see the other parent (namely her mother)

This is a decision that only you can make but do not just say no without telling her that she can go when she is older.

All cases are not the same but my daughter came to live with me as she could not live with her mother who  loved her very much . I Always stood by her mother in that respect and now they are inseparable and we are all very happy.

Its delicate because she is a at very impressionable age

This may not help but your heart needs to tell you what is the best decision. A lawyer can only give you a few legal aspects which will not really help you 

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Dene16 said:

this is the case in Thailand if not married but on the birth certificate

They have joint custody and are under UK/ Swedish law so no problem although he mentions ex girl friend, not wife so not sure

New law in UK,  about 10 years ago, states all fathers on birh certificate have guardianship. Not the case before. I had to get this because  when i took my daughter on holiday if she need something like a blood transfusion it can only be given by a guardian 

We were not married

 

Dene, this Idiot is not trying to destroy any relationship......

I can see that you have some actual experience in these matters (of the OP).

Perhaps you could give more detail?

Could be even more useful to the OP?

Nice to see that people care about others.

Cheers

 

[Dene16]

1 minute ago, laislica said:

Dene, this Idiot is not trying to destroy any relationship......

I realise that, hence i said mean well also 

Idiot i admit was a bit harsh

People that have not been in similar situations do not have an objective view from both sides of the coin and do not look at it from the child's point of view.

I would love to be able to tell him the right decision but it revolves around his opinion of his ex girlfriend/ wife

That is something that only he knows and no one here can answer

[laislica]

1 minute ago, Dene16 said:

I realise that, hence i said mean well also 

Idiot i admit was a bit harsh

People that have not been in similar situations do not have an objective view from both sides of the coin and do not look at it from the child's point of view.

I would love to be able to tell him the right decision but it revolves around his opinion of his ex girlfriend/ wife

That is something that only he knows and no one here can answer

 

In other lifetimes - been there etc.....

 

Hence I said:

Try asking her for money to see just how committed she is to taking care of her daughter(and how wealthy).

I mean, it could be genuine?

If her new fool is loaded and generous, your ex might feel that her daughter would be better off in the long term if she moved to Sweden.

That would be something you need to establish.

 

Thanks for caring enough to reply.

TVF is a strange place where, IMHO, some of our members need to express their frustrations in less than pleasant ways.....

 

Great that this thread is still more or less on subject.

 

We're rootin for you OP!!!

 

[bazza73]

The OP does not say how old his daughter is. If she is over 18, she should not need his permission.

Perhaps some cunning is in order. Give her a return airfare to visit Swede for a couple of weeks. Time it so it's the middle of the Swedish winter.

[laislica]

5 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

The OP does not say how old his daughter is. If she is over 18, she should not need his permission.

Perhaps some cunning is in order. Give her a return airfare to visit Swede for a couple of weeks. Time it so it's the middle of the Swedish winter.

Nice one hee hee.

 

I'm guessing about 10....

OP?

 

c411um

• Senior Member
•  
• 
• Members
• 16
• 177 posts

• Report post
•  
•  #51

Posted May 22

I've only read the first post.

 

I was in a similar situation 7 years ago. I had to take my ex-gf to court. I am now legally recognised as my daughter's father and 'won' custody  Mon-Fri. My daughter is now 10 years old and has a good relationship with both parents.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by laislica

[Dene16]

13 minutes ago, laislica said:

In other lifetimes - been there etc....

I actually wrote my post before reading yours

Your post has some structure unlike others that were some what one dimensional

I also did not realise until later that he was in Thailand as he stated he was British and presumed he was in the UK

I presume you have been with your wife at least 11 years for your step son to be able to get Spanish nationality

loving the  news of your good relationship  as i believe there are many more happy ones than sad one's

Although you would not think it. sometimes, on here

 

 

 

[smotherb]

6 hours ago, davidst01 said:

Tell your daughter the weather and food in Sweden is terrible. And she will never be able to speak the language. Tell her the realities. It will be hell...

Yeah, that's the ticket; use lies and distortions to convince your child.

[csabo]

Call your lawyer

[bogozy]

I am on the side of Your daughter. At here Thailand the schools are shit.

At Sweeden far better.

Why do You no take away Your daughter to England, and give her the chance for a good British education. This would be the best for her. If You are selfish. You keep her at here.

 

[MyFriend You]

11 hours ago, davidst01 said:

Tell your daughter the weather and food in Sweden is terrible. And she will never be able to speak the language. Tell her the realities. It will be hell...

No Som Tam in Sweden??  check that one off my list, but there is a Scandanavian Law Office in Pattaya, pay them a visit, I am sure they have come up with this before.

Edited September 11, 2017 by TunnelRat69

[laislica]

7 hours ago, Dene16 said:

I actually wrote my post before reading yours

Your post has some structure unlike others that were some what one dimensional

I also did not realise until later that he was in Thailand as he stated he was British and presumed he was in the UK

I presume you have been with your wife at least 11 years for your step son to be able to get Spanish nationality

loving the  news of your good relationship  as i believe there are many more happy ones than sad one's

Although you would not think it. sometimes, on here

 

 

 

You may have misread that post. We have been together 5 years and her son does not have Spanish nationality.

I wrote that his Mum thought he would be better off in Spain but I do not for the reasons I explained.

 

Cheers

[Been there done that]

11 hours ago, smotherb said:

Yeah, that's the ticket; use lies and distortions to convince your child.

No morals either. Sad !

[anon345535]

Apologies for not giving enough details.

 

Daughter was born in Bangkok and has lived here for 10 years (she's 10).

My ex is Thai. 

Joint custody was awarded here in Thailand through Thai courts.

Ex-gf is working in Sweden and currently living with her new partner.

 

Just to be clear - although I will miss her, I am happy for her to go to Sweden provided I am assured she is entering a safe, stable environment. Having lived with her mother for almost 5 years I am sceptical of this. However, I have only ever encouraged my daughter to spend time with her mother. Of course I will probably only see her once a year, but it could be a good opportunity to learn another completely useless language, which incidentally is something my daughter excels at. She's fluent in both Thai and English, and is proficient in Chinese.

 

I think my problem is with how it may materialize. My ex is irrational and ignorant. 

She will be here next year and I know that she will take my daughter without my permission which is why I asked the original questions.

Can she apply for a new passport without my consent?

Will she be able to leave the country without my consent?

If she succeeds and I travel to Sweden, will their namby-pamby government interfere?

 

Cheers!

 

[laislica]

1 hour ago, c411um said:

Apologies for not giving enough details.

 

Daughter was born in Bangkok and has lived here for 10 years (she's 10).

My ex is Thai. 

Joint custody was awarded here in Thailand through Thai courts.

Ex-gf is working in Sweden and currently living with her new partner.

 

Just to be clear - although I will miss her, I am happy for her to go to Sweden provided I am assured she is entering a safe, stable environment. Having lived with her mother for almost 5 years I am sceptical of this. However, I have only ever encouraged my daughter to spend time with her mother. Of course I will probably only see her once a year, but it could be a good opportunity to learn another completely useless language, which incidentally is something my daughter excels at. She's fluent in both Thai and English, and is proficient in Chinese.

 

I think my problem is with how it may materialize. My ex is irrational and ignorant. 

She will be here next year and I know that she will take my daughter without my permission which is why I asked the original questions.

Can she apply for a new passport without my consent?

Will she be able to leave the country without my consent?

If she succeeds and I travel to Sweden, will their namby-pamby government interfere?

 

Cheers!

 

 

TiT and with some cash some laws don't seem to need to be applied.

Thus, whatever you do, things could always go the other way if the ex so desired.

If it is genuine the best you could do IMHO, is to allow her to go with love but still have a place for her to return to if things don't work out as required.

 

I mentioned money before.

How about asking the ex for sufficient cash for you to hold so that if your daughter needed to return there would be money for travel.

I would not want the money to be in the daughters account - far too tempting for a youngster.....

 

Then again, perhaps the ex should put up enough to pay flights/taxies etc for regular holidays to Thailand?

Would your daughter fly alone or would there need to be additional costs to cover an adult to accompany her.

 

As my dear old Mum used to say, complicated things sound easy when you say them fast!

As the father, perhaps the ex and her new partner should arrange to meet with you where they can lay out a complete plan of their intentions, promises and commitments?

Unless things are totally thought through and are transparent, I feel that there are no guarantees for your daughters future.

You would all need to know at least as much as if the daughter was beind sent away to a boarding school.

If the relationship for your ex and new guy is not stable, what will happen if their relationship breaks down?

What if they become unable to continue to look after your daughter, accident, lost job, prison, there could be many reasons.

 

What about health insurance?
Dental insurance.

Vaxinations, what would your ex and yourself agree to if you were together.....

 

Sorry more questions than answers but I guess you don't want to be in a position in the future when you say - but I thought that you were going to.........

Best of luck.

 

 

 

 

[Dene16]

2 hours ago, laislica said:

Can she apply for a new passport without my consent?

Will she be able to leave the country without my consent?

 

I can not find any information on the first answer but i would of thought possible

Second question i have found the following

In Thailand parental child abduction is not a criminal offence. It is considered to be a dispute between the parents and a civil matter to be settled by a court of law.

Parents with custody of a child have an automatic right to remove that child from Thailand. This includes for the purposes of holidays. There is no requirement for a special application. In principle the agreement of both parents is required for a child to leave the country. However, this may not be strictly applied by the authorities at ports of exit. There is no law requiring a left-behind parent to give authority in writing to the other parent.T

The child would not normally be stopped from leaving the country unless an immigration official had concerns about travel or legal irregularities. It is possible, through the courts, for one parent to prevent the other parent from leaving the country with their child without the left-behind parent’s consent. If the court rules the child must not be taken out of Thailand, the resulting court order can be passed to the Thai Immigration Bureau who should notify all immigration checkpoints not to permit the other parent to leave the country with the child. The Immigration Bureau will not normally act on a direct request from a parent, in the absence of a court order, to prevent the child leaving the country. A parent can submit a legal appeal against a court order preventing the other parent from taking a child out of the country. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Dene16
information

[Awk]

On 9/13/2017 at 1:43 PM, c411um said:

Apologies for not giving enough details.

 

Daughter was born in Bangkok and has lived here for 10 years (she's 10).

My ex is Thai. 

Joint custody was awarded here in Thailand through Thai courts.

Ex-gf is working in Sweden and currently living with her new partner.

 

Just to be clear - although I will miss her, I am happy for her to go to Sweden provided I am assured she is entering a safe, stable environment. Having lived with her mother for almost 5 years I am sceptical of this. However, I have only ever encouraged my daughter to spend time with her mother. Of course I will probably only see her once a year, but it could be a good opportunity to learn another completely useless language, which incidentally is something my daughter excels at. She's fluent in both Thai and English, and is proficient in Chinese.

 

I think my problem is with how it may materialize. My ex is irrational and ignorant. 

She will be here next year and I know that she will take my daughter without my permission which is why I asked the original questions.

Can she apply for a new passport without my consent?

 

No. 

 

On 9/13/2017 at 1:43 PM, c411um said:

Will she be able to leave the country without my consent?

 

Yes.  Possibly you can ask the court to put your child on the "no exit" list, if you can convince the family court you have good reason to suspect mother will take your daughter away from Thailand and not bring her back.  The child should then be blocked from leaving Thailand.  Unless you have some strong evidence, I don't think this will happen however.  But if you have her passports, this is hopefully not necessary anyway.

 

 

 

On 9/13/2017 at 1:43 PM, c411um said:

If she succeeds and I travel to Sweden, will their namby-pamby government interfere?

 

Not sure what would happen if you turn up in Sweden.  You would not be registered there as a father with shared custody, at least not initially, so don't see how you would have any rights to your daughter in Sweden.  How would you even prove you are her father?   The Hague treaty is the way to handle this I think.

 

If you were Thai, you would open a Hague case from Thailand (not Sweden) citing that the child was domiciled in Thailand until the mother without permission abducted the child to another country.   The Swedish authorities should reasonably quickly (in two-three months?) return the child to you in Thailand, by force if mother refuses.  They would say mother should bring a case against you in Thailand if she wants full custody and move with the child to Sweden without your permission, and mother may get some legal problems in Sweden due to her actions too (taking the child away to Sweden without permission).

 

But you are not Thai, only your daughter is.  I'm not sure if the Thai authorities would help you the same way they would help a Thai parent in this case.  Maybe they would, but I'm not sure.

[blackcab]

Q: Can she apply for a new passport without my consent?

 

Thai passport = absolutely not. Both parents have to be present or all sorts of restrictions apply.

 

British passport = maybe. It depends if your ex can get her hands on the current UK passport or not. If she can't then she will have to report it lost or stolen, in which case she needs an authorisation letter from you as part of the application process as you were the last applicant. If she can get hold of the current UK passport then she can apply with no problem.

 

Q: Will she be able to leave the country without my consent?

 

Technically no, but this is Thailand and the correct procedure may not be applied as the mother is Thai.

 

Keep those passports hidden, even from your daughter.

Edited September 15, 2017 by blackcab